The extortion gospel - "believe or burn" - not really a choice

[Behold]

Why would you assume that I am not reconciled to God?

Why would any real Christian assume you are not reconciled to God? That is your question??
Its obviously Because your Threads and Posts attack God and the Bible and The Gospel.
(See this one for the latest update regarding your "christianity").

Its interesting that you accuse the Gospel of God's Grace as "extorting people", when in fact you are the very person who leads unbelievers into Hell with your false Gospel of "Universalism".

Now, You were asked this over 5x......so, here it is again. @St. SteVen, as you have not yet answered this question.

You've dodged it, and deflected it, and summerized it......but no answer yet.

Here is the question..... again.

""Do you believe that a sinner has to be forgiven their sin, and be born again on this Earth, = before they die, if they want to go to heaven?""

 

[David in NJ]

@St. SteVen

May God continue to "extort" the HELL out of many souls = just as HE did for me

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[St. SteVen]

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

We are made of three components. You mention body and soul, which component is missing?
(i.e. the destruction is not complete. Like the wood, hay and stubble.) Clue: 1 Thessalonians 5:23

[

 

[David in NJ]

We are made of three components. You mention body and soul, which component is missing?
(i.e. the destruction is not complete. Like the wood, hay and stubble.) Clue: 1 Thessalonians 5:23

[

GREAT question

When God judges a person as unfit for His Kingdom, it is due to that person's rejection of Christ.

Therefore, the spirit of a man returns to God who gave it. = Hebrews 4:12
The soul of the man remains intact with that person = Matthew 10:28

Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. 12For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

 

[St. SteVen]

GREAT question

When God judges a person as unfit for His Kingdom, it is due to that person's rejection of Christ.

Therefore, the spirit of a man returns to God who gave it. = Hebrews 4:12
The soul of the man remains intact with that person = Matthew 10:28

Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. 12For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

Yes. I believe God's intention is to burn away all that is bad to rescue the spirit/soul intact.
Notice that even if everything burns up, the person will still be saved. (vs 15)

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 NIV
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light.
It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—
even though only as one escaping through the flames.

[

 

[XtraPercept]

You tell people you’re a student of the Word, but what you’re really promoting isn’t the Word of God, it’s your own imagination.

Jesus did use the word Gehenna in Matthew 10: 28, and He defined it as a place where God destroys both soul and body, not just physical remains. That’s not metaphor, that’s final judgment. And in Mark 9: 43–48, Jesus called it a place “where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.” That’s not poetic. That’s terrifying, and He said it more than once.

Luke 16: 23–26 isn’t describing some half-asleep stupor after death, it’s describing a man who is fully conscious in torment. Revelation 14: 11 says of the damned, “the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever, and they have no rest day nor night.” That’s not annihilation, that’s everlasting punishment, exactly as Jesus described in Matthew 25:46. You can try to redefine “death,” but Scripture already tells us what the second death is: eternal separation and torment in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14–15).

You then reject the Trinity, despite clear Scripture that shows the Father (1 Corinthians 8: 6), the Son (John 1:1–14), and the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3–4) as distinct, yet one God. Jesus didn’t say “I am the Father” He said, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30), meaning unity, not sameness of person. And Matthew 28: 19 is in the overwhelming majority of ancient manuscripts. You’re grasping at straws to deny clear doctrine.

Your appeal to Calvin or history is irrelevant. Truth doesn’t rise or fall on who preached it. The issue is, what did God say? And God said there is judgment, there is wrath, and there is eternal punishment for those who reject Him.

You claim fear is “unnecessary,” but Proverbs 1: 7 says, “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.” Hebrews 10:31 says, “It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” You’re teaching another gospel, one that erases God’s justice and flattens His holiness.

Galatians 1: 8–9 says that if anyone preaches a different gospel, “let him be accursed.” You are not speaking by the Spirit of truth. You are reshaping God into your image, a god of comfort with no judgment, no wrath, no fear. That is not the God of Scripture.

Repent, and believe what God actually said. Not just the parts that sound nice. All of it.

You and I serve different masters. My Master is the very essence of love, the origin of compassion, the source of ethics and morality. Your master invokes frightful things to compel acquiescence, removing any freedom to consider alternatives.

I am free to contemplate any idea I choose. I can learn the depths of your perspective until I see it from behind you and yet I am free to evaluate what is true.

You do not know the source of my words because you do not know my Master. You won't even consider them as you have already dispelled them as fantasy. The statements of mine you disregard compared to the points you respond to are not based on your own thinking. Your responses are canned, packaged and prepared for you to deliver where you see opportunity.

How is it you are not bothered by the life of your doctrinal dispenser, his torturous murder of an opponent, and his unrepentant final correspondences revealing he would have done it again? Are these the actions of one who delivers the words of One who offers Himself fully for our propitiation to a glorious heavenly Father from whom we have been separated?

It is your wrath and your judgement you would foist upon your convert. These terrible, frightful things do not come from my Master, they come from yours.

Your master makes no sense to you and you use his weary bones to support his doctrines. My Master is clear and elegant with unsearchable depths of meaning and purpose.

I only speak of what I cherish most, and I love that there is no violence in Him.

 

[XtraPercept]

For those curious, I will shed some light on these arguments of John Calvin.

Gehenna was essentially a fire pit for garbage. It burned continuously for the people of Israel as a functional means of waste disposal but also as symbolism for the result of the activities which took place there prior to the flames.

No contemporary of Christ would have believed that something tossed into that inferno would endure for long. And speaking of the era, what do you think men knew of insect life cycles two thousand years ago? You must understand their perspective to see the intent of the metaphor. The worms will not die (i.e. rotting flesh will appear to continuously spawn filthy creatures) and the fire will not be quenched before all within it is fully consumed.

The only incremable organic matter in scripture was situational, a burning bush before Moses which was not consumed and the honorable trio of Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, whom the Babylonians could not burn.

I find no appeal in Calvin but history is vital to understand. We should know what happens to those ignorant of it and yet these tired talking points are repeated the Christian world over.

As far as the incomprehensible trinity, such mystery union-separation nonsense is the bread and butter of the gnostics and other 'special knowledge' wallowers in falsehood. It is impossible to grasp despite an egg analogy or some other "example" because it is irrational all the way up to the face of it, never mind where it actually came from.

And then there is the fear they quote. I say it's unnecessary as the Calvinist understands it, being scared and afraid. In Scripture, the term depicts a profound reverence, the type that takes away all words in the presence of unimaginable greatness. It is a deepest respect nestled in awe and humility.

I speak of the gospel which spoke to me, the one of truth and love and mercy and grace and salvation and glory and honor and all the good and wonderful things! I know my Master and He loves me, and because He holds all things in His right hand, I fear nothing at all.

 

[bdavidc]

You and I serve different masters. My Master is the very essence of love, the origin of compassion, the source of ethics and morality. Your master invokes frightful things to compel acquiescence, removing any freedom to consider alternatives.

I am free to contemplate any idea I choose. I can learn the depths of your perspective until I see it from behind you and yet I am free to evaluate what is true.

You do not know the source of my words because you do not know my Master. You won't even consider them as you have already dispelled them as fantasy. The statements of mine you disregard compared to the points you respond to are not based on your own thinking. Your responses are canned, packaged and prepared for you to deliver where you see opportunity.

How is it you are not bothered by the life of your doctrinal dispenser, his torturous murder of an opponent, and his unrepentant final correspondences revealing he would have done it again? Are these the actions of one who delivers the words of One who offers Himself fully for our propitiation to a glorious heavenly Father from whom we have been separated?

It is your wrath and your judgement you would foist upon your convert. These terrible, frightful things do not come from my Master, they come from yours.

Your master makes no sense to you and you use his weary bones to support his doctrines. My Master is clear and elegant with unsearchable depths of meaning and purpose.

I only speak of what I cherish most, and I love that there is no violence in Him.

You say we worship a “Master” of love, freedom, and refinement, but that’s not the God of the Bible. That’s a god of your own invention, contorted to your image rather than revealed by Scripture. The God of the Bible is love (1 John 4: 8), yes, but He is also holy, just, and a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29). You cannot divorce His love from His holiness, or His mercy from His justice.

You say I worship a master of wrath and fear, but the fear of the Lord is a biblical fear, it’s where wisdom begins (Proverbs 9:10). Jesus Himself spoke of hell more than anyone in Scripture. He didn’t warn us because He was mean. He warned us because He loves us, and love speaks truth, even when it’s a hard thing to hear. You pervert that love into indulgence, and wipe away His righteous judgment entirely. That’s not love. That’s compromise.

Your “Master” cannot be the God of the Bible because your Master has no judgment. He does not punish sin. That’s not justice, that’s moral cowardice. The God of the Bible judged sin at the cross (Romans 3: 25–26), and He will judge every soul in righteousness (Acts 17:31). Hell is not an invention of God’s cruelty, but a reality of man’s rebellion and God’s holiness. If there is no judgment, then Jesus died for nothing.

You say my words are canned and pre-prepared. You are right. They are. Prepared, from the Word of God. And unlike your mystical hooey, this truth has a foundation. I don’t need lofty prose or abstract imagery, I have chapter and verse. You call it fear-mongering, but God calls it warning the wicked so they don’t perish (Ezekiel 3:18–19). That’s not hatred. That’s love with a backbone.

You call it violence. I call it the justice of a holy God who did, in fact, offer Himself as a sacrifice for sin (1 Peter 2:24). You want a Jesus who comforts but never convicts, who saves but never judges. That Jesus does not exist. He said plainly, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me” (John 14:6). That’s not open to reinterpretation. That’s the line in the sand.

So no, I do not believe we serve the same Master. The real Jesus did not come to affirm your feelings, He came to save you from sin and judgment. And if you reject that, then you are not following Him. You’ve created a new god out of emotion and philosophy. But the Bible warns of that too: “If any man preach any other gospel... let him be accursed” (Galatians 1:9).

 

[bdavidc]

For those curious, I will shed some light on these arguments of John Calvin.

Gehenna was essentially a fire pit for garbage. It burned continuously for the people of Israel as a functional means of waste disposal but also as symbolism for the result of the activities which took place there prior to the flames.

No contemporary of Christ would have believed that something tossed into that inferno would endure for long. And speaking of the era, what do you think men knew of insect life cycles two thousand years ago? You must understand their perspective to see the intent of the metaphor. The worms will not die (i.e. rotting flesh will appear to continuously spawn filthy creatures) and the fire will not be quenched before all within it is fully consumed.

The only incremable organic matter in scripture was situational, a burning bush before Moses which was not consumed and the honorable trio of Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, whom the Babylonians could not burn.

I find no appeal in Calvin but history is vital to understand. We should know what happens to those ignorant of it and yet these tired talking points are repeated the Christian world over.

As far as the incomprehensible trinity, such mystery union-separation nonsense is the bread and butter of the gnostics and other 'special knowledge' wallowers in falsehood. It is impossible to grasp despite an egg analogy or some other "example" because it is irrational all the way up to the face of it, never mind where it actually came from.

And then there is the fear they quote. I say it's unnecessary as the Calvinist understands it, being scared and afraid. In Scripture, the term depicts a profound reverence, the type that takes away all words in the presence of unimaginable greatness. It is a deepest respect nestled in awe and humility.

I speak of the gospel which spoke to me, the one of truth and love and mercy and grace and salvation and glory and honor and all the good and wonderful things! I know my Master and He loves me, and because He holds all things in His right hand, I fear nothing at all.

You’re not shining light, you’re casting delusion. Jesus wasn’t speaking metaphorically about a trash fire when He spoke of Gehenna, He was warning people about a literal place of eternal judgment. “fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matt 10:28). “their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:48). That is not a metaphor. That is eternal torture. Stop perverting His words.

You expose yourself by denying the Trinity. The Bible makes it abundantly clear that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct persons, and yet one God. Jesus didn’t pray to Himself. Jesus said, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). And Jesus commanded us to baptize in the name of all three (Matt 28:19). You cannot take that passage out because you don’t like it.

Your saccharine notion of “fear” doesn’t stand up to Scripture either. The Bible says, “It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” (Heb 10:31). That’s not reverent language. That’s a warning. And you clearly don’t believe that.

You speak of love and glory, but your gospel has no cross, no wrath, no repentance and no holiness. It is a lie. You are preaching another Jesus, and that is precisely what Satan does, He masquerades as light (2 Cor 11:4,14). You have made up a god who looks nothing like the God of the Bible.

You need to repent, or you will face the very judgment you laugh at.

 

[St. SteVen]

When God judges a person as unfit for His Kingdom, it is due to that person's rejection of Christ.

What does "unfit for His Kingdom" mean?
Was the person whose works burned up unfit for His Kingdom?
He was still saved, right?

[

 

[pandaflower]

The RCC corrupted the truth of Christ all through the history of the NT.

Which is why God insured his guidance would overcome their pagan evil.

You will know the truth and the truth will make you free.

Reading the Bible doesn't save us.

Study to show thyself approved,aware.

The RCC to this day does not encourage self study. You need a priest to rightly understand.

No. We don't.

RC. is an amalgam. Roman paganism and their bishops and Constantine's idea of God.

 

[St. SteVen]

The RCC corrupted the truth of Christ all through the history of the NT.

Better check your historical timeline on that.
The NT was written in the first and second century.
The RCC didn't form until the third or fourth century.

"The First Council of Nicaea, held in 325 AD, was the first ecumenical council of the Christian church, convened by Emperor Constantine I to address the Arian controversy regarding the nature of Christ. It resulted in the Nicene Creed, affirming the divinity of Christ and establishing a unified Christian doctrine."

[

 

[marks]

What does "unfit for His Kingdom" mean?

The opposite of:

Colossians 1:12 LITV
giving thanks to the Father, who has made us fit for a share of the inheritance of the saints in light,

To put this into context,

Colossians 1:1-2 LITV
1) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Timothy the brother,
2) to the saints and faithful brothers in Christ in Colosse: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:9-13 LITV
9) For this cause also, from the day in which we heard, we do not cease praying on your behalf, and asking that you may be filled with the full knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding,
10) for you to walk worthily of the Lord to all pleasing, bearing fruit in every good work and growing into the full knowledge of God;
11) being empowered with all power according to the might of His glory, to all patience and long-suffering with joy;
12) giving thanks to the Father, who has made us fit for a share of the inheritance of the saints in light,
13) who delivered us out of the authority of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,


The saints and faithful brothers "in Christ" are fit for the kingdom, others are not.

Much love!

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
What does "unfit for His Kingdom" mean?

The saints and faithful brothers "in Christ" are fit for the kingdom, others are not.

But what does it mean in practical terms?
Was the person whose works burned up unfit for His Kingdom?
He was still saved, right?

[

 

[XtraPercept]

You’re not shining light, you’re casting delusion. Jesus wasn’t speaking metaphorically about a trash fire when He spoke of Gehenna, He was warning people about a literal place of eternal judgment. “fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matt 10:28). “their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:48). That is not a metaphor. That is eternal torture. Stop perverting His words.

You expose yourself by denying the Trinity. The Bible makes it abundantly clear that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct persons, and yet one God. Jesus didn’t pray to Himself. Jesus said, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). And Jesus commanded us to baptize in the name of all three (Matt 28:19). You cannot take that passage out because you don’t like it.

Your saccharine notion of “fear” doesn’t stand up to Scripture either. The Bible says, “It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” (Heb 10:31). That’s not reverent language. That’s a warning. And you clearly don’t believe that.

You speak of love and glory, but your gospel has no cross, no wrath, no repentance and no holiness. It is a lie. You are preaching another Jesus, and that is precisely what Satan does, He masquerades as light (2 Cor 11:4,14). You have made up a god who looks nothing like the God of the Bible.

You need to repent, or you will face the very judgment you laugh at.

But my Master is the innocent One who took the punishment for sin upon Himself as He hung from a cross. My Master is the One who was dead for three days and yet now lives forever. And my Master is perfectly just; He does not torture because His wrath is complete and fair.

Your master masquerades as mine to plant these abominable lies as he has done from the lying mouths of the bribed roman guards who failed to keep watch over the tomb of the Christ, even from the very first lie that there was ever something better than my Master and His laws and precepts.

My God is the true God and you malign His character.

 

[marks]

St. SteVen said:

Was the person whose works burned up unfit for His Kingdom?

I assume you are referring to 1 Corinthians 3:

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 YLT
12) and if any one doth build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—
13) of each the work shall become manifest, for the day shall declare it , because in fire it is revealed, and the work of each, what kind it is, the fire shall prove;
14) if of any one the work doth remain that he built on it , a wage he shall receive;
15) if of any the work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; and himself shall be saved, but so as through fire.

What does "unfit for His Kingdom" mean?

Your answer is here:

John 3:3-5 LITV
3) Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, If one is not generated from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God.
4) Nicodemus said to Him, How is a man able to be generated, being old? He is not able to enter into his mother's womb a second time and be born?
5) Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, If one is not generated out of water and Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God.

Much love!

 

[XtraPercept]

I assume you are referring to 1 Corinthians 3:

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 YLT
12) and if any one doth build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—
13) of each the work shall become manifest, for the day shall declare it , because in fire it is revealed, and the work of each, what kind it is, the fire shall prove;
14) if of any one the work doth remain that he built on it , a wage he shall receive;
15) if of any the work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; and himself shall be saved, but so as through fire.



Your answer is here:

John 3:3-5 LITV
3) Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, If one is not generated from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God.
4) Nicodemus said to Him, How is a man able to be generated, being old? He is not able to enter into his mother's womb a second time and be born?
5) Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, If one is not generated out of water and Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God.

Much love!

I don't usually like to interject, but a quick moment, please.

The first passage you quote is a reference to the testing of faith, as in 1 Peter, where it is refined and proven of value by trials and whatever perseverance is demonstrated through them. Even if a son of God doesn't make top marks, a son will not lose his inheritance. But one can forfeit it by spurning the offer in favor of lesser things, but that beside the point.

The second passage does not apply here. This passage is about how the Spirit works. We don't choose our birth any more than we choose to be born again.

 

[pandaflower]

Better check your historical timeline on that.
The NT was written in the first and second century.
The RCC didn't form until the third or fourth century.

"The First Council of Nicaea, held in 325 AD, was the first ecumenical council of the Christian church, convened by Emperor Constantine I to address the Arian controversy regarding the nature of Christ. It resulted in the Nicene Creed, affirming the divinity of Christ and establishing a unified Christian doctrine."

[

I know my history.

 

[marks]

I don't usually like to interject, but a quick moment, please.

The first passage you referenced was metaphorical. Do you really think we will need gold and silver in eternity? This is a reference to the testing of faith, as in 1 Peter, where it is refined and proven of value by trials and whatever perseverance is demonstrated through them. Even if a son of God doesn't make top marks, a son will not lose his inheritance.

This passage doesn't speak of an inheritance.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 YLT
10) According to the grace of God that was given to me, as a wise master-builder, a foundation I have laid, and another doth build on it ,
11) for other foundation no one is able to lay except that which is laid, which is Jesus the Christ;
12) and if any one doth build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—
13) of each the work shall become manifest, for the day shall declare it , because in fire it is revealed, and the work of each, what kind it is, the fire shall prove;
14) if of any one the work doth remain that he built on it , a wage he shall receive;
15) if of any the work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; and himself shall be saved, but so as through fire.

There is no mention of inheritance, rather of either reward or loss.

Our works are here described as being tested by fire, and compares the gold, and the silver, and the precious stones as building materials, the same with the wood, and the hay, and the stubble, all building materials.

The context, both before and after this part, concerns created division in the body of Christ. So the point here is, you are either building with the right stuff, or with the wrong stuff.

In my interpretation, this is to say you are either building up the body of Christ in love, such as described in Ephesians 4, or you are "building" with such as comes from one's self, and not the Holy Spirit.

I agree with you that the reward is not money. Some places speak of crowns, such as where Paul tells the Thessalonians that they are his crown of rejoicing when they will be in the Lord's presence. The reward is how joyful we will be when we see those to whom we have ministered in the glory of the Lord.

Daniel wrote that those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the sky, and those who turn many to righteousness as the stars of heaven forever.

I don't know that we really can conceive of exactly how it will be.

This is not a passage of the testing of faith as Peter describes, this is a judgment at the end our our lives.

1 Corinthians 3:13-15 YLT
13) of each the work shall become manifest, for the day shall declare it , because in fire it is revealed, and the work of each, what kind it is, the fire shall prove;
14) if of any one the work doth remain that he built on it , a wage he shall receive;
15) if of any the work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; and himself shall be saved, but so as through fire.

This is God's judgment of the results of our activity in this life.

On the other hand,

1 Peter 1:7 LITV
7) so that the proving of your faith, much more precious than perishing gold, but having been proved through fire, may be found to praise and honor and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

This is not about works, rather, that our faith be shown genuine as we endure the fiery trial.

The second passage does not apply as you attempt. Fitness for the kingdom? This passage is about how the Spirit works. Did you choose when you were born? So do you think you get to choose when you're born again?

The passage speaks for itself, no comment needed.

John 3:3-7 LITV
3) Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, If one is not generated from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God.
4) Nicodemus said to Him, How is a man able to be generated, being old? He is not able to enter into his mother's womb a second time and be born?
5) Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, If one is not generated out of water and Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God.
6) That having been generated out of the flesh is flesh, and that having been generated out of the Spirit is spirit.
7) Do not wonder because I said to you, You must be generated from above.

Much love!

 

[St. SteVen]

I know my history.

How do you explain your statement?
RCC history comes a century after NT history.

pandaflower said:
The RCC corrupted the truth of Christ all through the history of the NT.

[