I am not the one twisting Jesus' words to mean something He never intended. "THIS generation" means the lifetime of those disciples right there with Him. That is how Jesus ALWAYS used that expression. Again, your problem is with what HE clearly stated.
End time predictions
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Nameaboveallnames
Active Member
I have not even quoted any of Jesus' words yet (but I am about to), so how could I possibly have twisted them? Give the false accusations a rest, okay? Thanks.
So you insist, but you have yet to prove it.
Jesus said:
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." (Mat. 24:34)
Seeing how you insist that "'this generation' means the lifetime of those disciples right there with Him," please explain to me how they witnessed the fulfillment of what Jesus said in relation to "the abomination of desolation."
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!" (Mat. 24:15-19)
When did "those disciples right there with Him" witness what Daniel the prophet wrote in relation to the same?
If you choose to answer, then I would advise you to quote what Daniel had to say about it. If you do not, then you can bet your bottom dollar that I will. In other words, your interpretation of "the abomination of desolation" needs to align with Daniel's interpretation of the same.
Let's move from the clear to what you consider unclear. Jesus used the expression "this generation" NINETEEN times. He ALWAYS meant those of HIs day. Yes, I insist that we start there. Jesus clearly expressed when those things would happen, yet you continue to ask "when did that happen and when did this happen"? ALL THOSE THINGS happened in the generation He stated--that generation of those very disciples standing right there with Him.
To WHOM is Jesus speaking in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21? He is addressing the YE. Nameaboveallnames, WE are NOT the YE! My accusation is not false--you refuse to accept the obvious meaning of "this generation" in the plain way Jesus used it numerous times. That is what you twist. You twist it in that you refuse to acknowledge that all the things Jesus spoke about to THOSE disciples happened to THEM.
Have you looked up the 18 other times Jesus said "this generation"? Your interpretation of "all these things" must "align" with Jesus' plain TIME statement: THIS generation.
There are around twenty YEs in Matthew 24:1-34. It cannot be overstated (except to those who will not acknowledge audience relevance) that WE are NOT the YE! Why can't you understand that?
ALL those things were fulfilled. THEY (the YE) were hated and killed. THEY heard of wars and rumors of wars. THEY saw the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet. In THEIR generation, the GOSPEL went out through all the Roman Empire ("world"). In their day, there were false Christs. THEY were told not to follow them. The Great Tribulation occurred in THAT generation. I won't go into details here, but history supports this. THEY were clearly told that THEY were to recognize the signs of His COMING as surely as THEY recognized the signs of the coming of summer in the budding of the fig tree ("and ALL the trees" Luke 21). ALL of that happened in THEIR generation. Jesus told THEM that it would.
Now let's consider the Abomination of Desolation--which Jesus told THOSE disciples THEY would see in THEIR generation. Beforehand, let me point out that Luke clarifies it by saying that it was when THEY saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies. Then THEY were to recognize that its desolation was at hand (Luke 21).
Was Jerusalem ever surrounded by armies? Did Jesus' disciples "flee to the mountains"? YES. The Christians, seeing the Roman armies begin to surround Jerusalem in A. D. 70 FLED the city to the mountains of PELLA. thus heeding Jesus' warning to them. NO Christian remained in Jerusalem when the city was attacked. By their pesence and their standard, the Romans desecrated and defiled the city and the Temple. The Abominaton was completed when the Temple and Jerusalem were utterly destroyed.
The Jews had rejected Jesus and continued to offer sacrifices, denying the once-for-all sacrifice of the Most High Priest, Jesus. This was the "wing of abominaions" of Daniel 9:27. Jesus had told them that their "house" would be left onto THEM "desolate." This is all a reflection of "the abomination that makes desolate" of Daniel 11:31 which depicts Antiochus IV (168 B. B. ) desecrating the Temple. Daniel 12:11 foretells of the time when the Romans desecrated the Temple in A. D. 70.
When Scripture gives a clear timing of events, we must acknowledge it and then seek to find the fulfillments in THAT time frame.
The Daniel 12:11 abomination of desolation is time of the end, Daniel 12:9.
When it is set up, the great tribulation will begin. To end when Jesus returns.
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Nameaboveallnames
Active Member
So you claim.
This is what Gabriel told Daniel:
Daniel chapter 9
[24] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
[25] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
[26] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
[27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
As I suspect we would agree, the "weeks" that we just read about are periods of seven years. The first sixty-nine weeks or the first four hundred and eighty-three years had a starting point, and that starting point was when the commandment went forth to restore and to build Jerusalem (vs. 25). We know that date from history, and if we calculate sixty-nine weeks or four hundred and eighty-three years forward from that date, then it brings us to the time of Jesus' crucifixion or to the time when Messiah was cut off, but not for himself (vs. 26).
This leaves us with one remaining week or with one remaining seven year period.
If you are going to insist that this seventieth week or seventieth seven year period occurred immediately after the previous sixty-nine weeks or four hundred and eighty-three years were completed, then I need for you to answer the following questions for me:
1. Who is the "he" who "confirmed the covenant with many for one week" or seven years (vs. 27) after Messiah was cut off (vs. 26) or after Jesus was crucified?
2. What was this seven year "covenant," and where in the New Testament do we read about this "he" who "confirmed" it (vs. 27), only to then cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease in the midst of this week or at the 3 1/2 year mark of this seven year covenant?
3. If these seventy weeks were continual, with no gap between the sixty-ninth week and the seventieth week, then please explain to me/us how the transgression was finished at that point in time and how an end to sins was made at that point in time (vs. 24).
Let's start here and see how you do.
The words speak for themselves. They are so clear, a child could understand them. But they don't fit your preconceived ideas, so you force a different meaning upon them--upon CHRIST'S own words!
He said, "THIS generation will by no means pass away untill ALL THESE THINGS take place" (Mat. 24:34). There is nothing to prove. It is simple language. Jesus used that expression NINETEEN times. Look them up if you want proof. He ALWAYS meant those of HIS own day. ALWAYS. The burden of proof is on you to establish why Jesus, without explanation, decided to give it a different meaning ONE time out of NINETEEN.
Nameaboveallnames
Active Member
You evaded my questions, and we both know why.
Were you to answer them, you would refute your own erroneous position.
Game over.
"THIS generation will by no means pass away until ALL THESE THINGS take place." Your problem is not with me--it is with Jesus and His CLEAR words. You rebel against His truth. That is not a small thing.l
Nameaboveallnames
Active Member
All these words, and, again, you refuse to answer my questions because you would refute your own heretical beliefs in doing so.
Time to put you on "ignore."
I don't know what questions you're talking about. You can ignore me all you want. The truth remains. Jesus meant those of His own day when He said "
I don't what questions you're talking about? What heretical beliefs? I simply post the words of Jesus. Heresy falls upon those who deny what He said and even go so far as to put words in His mouth. Very dangerous.
Ignore me all you want. The truths you deny prevail.
Nameaboveallnames
Active Member
Daniel 9
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
He and the 70th week are identified by grammar, logic, and Scripture.
Firstly, grammar:
"he" in Daniel 9:27 requires a preceding referent/antecedent which matches the number (i.e. singular) and the gender (i.e. male).
The preceding referent/antecedent which matches the number (i.e. singular) and the gender (i.e. male) is "prince" in Daniel 9:26.
"prince" in Daniel 9:26 requires a preceding referent/antecedent which matches the number (i.e. singular) and the gender (i.e. male).
The preceding referent/antecedent which matches the number (i.e. singular) and the gender (i.e. male) is "the Messiah the Prince" in Daniel 9:25.
Therefore, Daniel 9:25-26 interpret Daniel 9:27 to identify "he" as "the Messiah the Prince".
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I’m sorry this response has taken so long. I have been dealing with other threads whose subjects are not as “complex’ as this one. I was not trying to avoid you. Thank you for reposting the questions.
It is my studied opinion that ALL of the visions given to the Hebrew nation upon which would come physical judgment. Daniel is not speaking about the “nations” of the world at some “end of time event.”
Chapter 9 opens with Daniel's prayer for HIS PEOPLE. When he prayed to the Lord, he confessed that “WE have sinned and done wrong and acted wickedly and rebelled, turning aside from your commandments and rules.” Only Israel had God’s commandments and rules. He continued “WE have not listened to your servants and prophets, who spoke in your name to OUR kings, OUR princes, and OUR fathers, and to all the people of the LAND.” Again, this is clearly a prayer to God about the people of Israel. “Shame” belonged “to the men of JUDAH, to the inhabitants of JERUSALEM, and to ALL ISRAEL” (vss. 3-7).
Daniel's prayer for mercy was for the rebellious nation of Israel (vs. 17). Gabriel was to bring the answer (vss. 20-23).
“Seventy weeks are decreed about YOUR people and YOUR city” (vs. 24).
- “to finish the transgression”
- “to put an end to sin”
- “to atone for iniquity”
- “to bring in everlasting righteousness”
- “to seal both vision and prophet”
- “to anoint a most holy place”
Ezekiel was to lie on his left side for one day for every year of the punishment of the house of ISRAEL (390 years, vs. 5). After completing that, he was to lie on his right side for FORTY days (one day for every year) for the punishment of the house of JUDAH. All of this CONTEXT is about OT ISRAEL and JUDAH and has nothing to do with us and the nations of our day.
Clearly, then, verse 24 speaks of the coming Messiah, Jesus the Christ. His work that is described covered His Advent, the Cross, and as the Great High priest, His sprinkling of His blood upon the heavenly altar (Heb. 9:11, 12, 23, 24).
The “seven weeks” (49 years—458 B. C. to 409 B. C.) that it took to rebuild Jerusalem was initiated under the command of Artaxerxes (based upon the decree of Cyrus). From that point, Gabriel added another 62 weeks (434 years). The timeline is then 458 B. C. to A. D. 26. This gives a total of 483 years. This begins the time of the advent of Messiah THE PRINCE, his 3 ½ year ministry, and His being cut off.
The Cross is the middle of the final week. From the time of this "cutting off," there were to be FORTY YEARS when "the people of the prince to come shall destroy the city and the santuary" (vs. 26). This occurred in A. D. 70. The "prince to come" was none other than the "anointed one" of verse 25. The "people" are "of the prince." Both verses 25 and 26 speak of the SAME "prince"--Jesus, the Christ and Messiah. The people are the JEWS who called for the crucifixion of their Jesus. Later, those JEWS so provoked the Romans in the Jewish Wars that they were ultimately responsible for its destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple--just as they were responsible for His death even though it was the Romans who executed Him!
That's enough for now. This is gettng to long!
I fully concur. I'd been replying to @Nameaboveallnames and you supplied the additional relevant detail. I showed that even simple basic standard grammar itself establishes the "He's" of verse 27 as Messiah the Prince.
Thanks.
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No, there is nothing about the Messiah's ministry in Daniel 9. Daniel 9:25-26 is about his arrival in Jerusalem and being cutoff.
In John 12:1-15, starts off with the passover week that Jesus would be crucified; then Jesus arrived in Jerusalem, hailed as the King of Israel that comes in the name of the Lord. Four days later he was crucified, cutoff.
See my chart down below regarding the 70 weeks (of years). The 70th week is still unfulfilled.
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Please follow through the text of John 12:1-15. John 12 starts off with the passover week that Jesus would be crucified. Jesus was God's passover lamb.
John 12:1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.
Mary anointed Jesus's feet in verse 3. Judas protested her use of the expensive ointment in verses 4-6.
Jonh 12:7 Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this.
8 For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.
John 12:12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,
13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.
14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,
15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.
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There is indeed something about the ministry of Jesus in Daniel 9. It was involved in the first 3 1/2 years before He was cut off at the Cross.
What is your justification for a 2000-year gap before the 70th week? There is NOTHING in Daniel 9 that even implies that.
The 2000-years-and-counting gap between the 69th and 70th week comes from those who will not accept the clear timing found in the unambiguous time words and statements spoke by Jesus Himself and His inspsired writers (SOON, NEAR, SHORTLY, ABOUT TO, AT HAND, THIS GENERATION, etc.).
There is no need for this invented gap for those who understand and acknowledge simple time words and are not biased by their preconceived ideas.
The messiah's ministry is not mentioned in the text of Daniel 9. The thinking that Jesus was cutoff in the middle of the seven years is not in Daniel 9:27. That particular thinking is a construed interpretation that some make. John 12:1-15 provides the correct interpretation of the messiah's arrival and being cutoff.
I presented John 12:1-15, as the messiah's arrival in Jerusalem, the passover week he would be cutoff, crucified. Fulfilling Daniel 9:25-26, regarding the messiah's arrival in Jerusalem and his being cutoff.
The 70th week is treated separately from the other 69 weeks (483 years). Daniel 9?27 begins with the confirming of the covenant for 7 years and then in the middle part of the 7 years the daily sacrificed stopped and admonitions begun.
If we were living at the time of Jesus, first century, having this discussion - then no, we could not have foreseen that the 70th week would be over 2000 years later. But now, in hindsight, we know there has been a gap of 2000 years.
Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined...
That's all seventy, including the seventieth.
Your seventieth is detached, decapitated, and ophaned, the epitome of undetermined.
It is a denial and rejection of Daniel's declaration and affirmation: Seventy weeks are determined...
I'll take Daniel's declaration and affirmation over your denial and rejection.
Every time.
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