When Christ returns, we shall all be changed, including heaven and earth, actually all things are changed out for something better.

[HappyOma]

I'd just be repeating myself to answer this.


How does one rightly divide between soul and spirit without the Holy Spirit? How does the natural carnal mind of man compare spiritual with spiritual, which scripture says we are to do? The things of God are spiritually discerned and the natural man can't perceive them.


As I did say, I'm not against studying and scholarship.....I just don't believe that is what we are to place our reliance on. We need "wings" of the Holy Spirit to illuminate and "see" His word.


By your own words you are relying on context. I believe we need to mine and dig deeper (higher?) than that in places. And I haven't "charged" you with anything. But for some reason this is a touchy subject with you.



On the contrary as I've also said more than once, I agree with what you are presenting about things that have already occurred and been fulfilled. But I also believe there are things that will be fulfilled in the future as well. I believe the things that happened unto Israel/Jerusalem were things the mostly Gentile church needs to take warning from. I've noticed a few times on forums people are arguing one side against another as if they are mutually exclusive when the truth is really that both sides were right.

In case it is helpful, I was talking on another thread with someone who believes the world has been judged already......and I suggested that maybe it is like the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world, but still awaited the fulness of time and appointed day for it happen or manifest in the realm of time. Because clearly Israel/Jerusalem got judged in the first century, but it's just as obvious the Gentiles haven't been judged yet, and as I believe, is awaiting the appointed day known only to God.


I have been wondering if you might be cessationist, or not.


I'm going to be frank here: Good for you. As I tried to point out, so did the Pharisees study and study for decades and hundreds of years who refused to come to Christ for life of the Spirit. In other words, what did it profit them? And I'm wondering where is God being glorified in all this boasting?

Again, no Scripture. Just your opinions. You make no sense. No one can glean any truths from the Bible with your ridiculous approach.

CAN WE GET BACK TO ACTUAL WORDS OF SCRIPTURE CONCERNING BIBLE PROPHECY?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Do you even consider ANYTHING I post? The Bible ends with "Behold, I am coming soon. Even so, come Lord Jesus." Did you miss the previous statement on purpose? John was shown those things which were to SHORTLY take place; the time was NEAR. You stubbornly ignore that. That SHORTLY and NEAR included HIS COMING!

SHORTLY and NEAR mean SHORTLY and NEAR--not 2000 years later! Why do you resist truth?

Lol.
Your silly conjecture needs revelation to be written in an impossible date.
It is overwhelming evidence it was written around 95 ad or so.

That TOTALLY annihilates your ENTIRE DOCTRINE.
YOUR SILLY DEAL IS BLOWN OUTTA THE WATER.
Like shooting ducks in a barrel.

 

[HappyOma]

I will ask you once more. If Christ was speaking only to Jews in the first century AD, why did He say in Mt 24:30 "THEY shall see" (Mark & Luke also) when speaking of the appearing of the sign of the Son of man in heaven?

What else is found in Matthew 24:30? The THEY are the "tribes of the land." This is the same meaning in Mark 13 and Luke 21. Pay attention to verse 33--"So also, when YOU see ALL THESE THINGS [signs] take place, YOU know that HE IS NEAR, AT THE VERY GATES." One must intentionally refuse to see the context here. THEY were to know when He was NEAR. There is NO ambiguity here.

Futhremore, those very disciples were to see the Abomination of Desolation. THEY were to recognize the signs of HIS COMING as surely as THEY recognized the coming of summer in the budding of the fig tree ("and all the trees" - Luke 21).

Who else saw the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven. Standing before Caiaphas and the Jewish leadership who were accusing Him of blasphemy, Jesus said to THEM--"YOU will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN" (Mat. 26:64). THEY saw Him coming on the clouds of heaven; the disciples saw Him coming on the clouds of heaven. THEY were all part of the "every eye" and the "tribes of the land" who were going to see Him coming (Rev. 1:7)--in A. D. 70. Those of the "tribes of the land" mourned because of Him when they realized that they wee being judged by God. This is irrefutable to anyone who will acknowledge the CONTEXT in which words are found. There are around TWENTY YEs in Matthew 24:1-34. WE are NOT the YE!

Jesus could not have been clearer about the timing--timing you refuse to acknowledge: "THIS generation will by no means pass away until ALL THESE THINGS take place" (vs. 34). Again, Jesus used that expression NINETEEN times, rwb. Look them up. He ALWAYS, ALWAYS meant those of HIS own day. You fight against this because you will not even consider the possibility that you are misunderstanding the NATURE of His return, the NATURE of the resurrection, and the NATURE of the judgment. When those things are properly and biblically understood, there is no conflict with the time words and the time statements. All is cohesive! Your wrong concepts cause you to stumble over simple words such as NEAR, SOON, ABOUT TO, AT HAND, SHORTLY, THIS GENERATION. You will never find cohesiveness between your false paradigm and the common, usual, typical, ordinary, plain meaning and implication of those words--words that are found in ABUNDANCE throughout the NT.

 

[WPM]

Many in the Church are blind because they are indoctrinated by the egregious errors of dispensationalism invented by John Nelson Darby in the 1800s and promoted by C. I. Scofield and his "study" Bible (1900s). ALL of the Bible colleges picked up these errors and the Church was greatly harmed by it ever since.

I AM right when I insist that Jesus ALWAYS meant His contemporaries when He used the expression "THIS generation." How do I know that? I looked up all NINETEEN times that He said those words. In all of the contexts, He meant those of HIS own day. That is not "revelation" that others don't have. It's the willingness to accept what simple words mean--regardless of what it does to any personal paradigm I or anyone might hold to.

It is not from some special revelation that I understand the timing of the Book of Revelation. I accept that John was shown those things which were to SHORTLY take place; the time was NEAR (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10). His vision involved those things leading up to and including the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in A. D. 70.

I take Peter at his word when he wrote: "The end of ALL things is AT HAND" (1 Peter 4:7).

I believe James when he wrote: "The COMING of the Lord is AT HAND" (James 5:8) and the judge is AT THE DOOR (James 5:9).

I accept the words of the writer of Hebrews who, writing shortly before A. D. 70 (ca 64-69), stated: "In a very, very little while He who is coming will come and will NOT DELAY" (Heb. 10:37).

I believe Jesus and HIS timing when He told the Twelve before He sent them out to the lost sheep of Israel: "YOU will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man COMES" (Mat. 10:23). I believe Jesus when He told those same disciples: "there are some standing HERE who will not taste death until THEY see the Son of Man COMING I:N HIS KINGDOM" (Mat. 16:28). I believe Jesus when He told Caiaphas and the Jewish leaders, after they accused Him of blasphemy: "YOU will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and CO:MING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN" (Mat. 26:64). These are not difficult words. The do not need "revelation."

Preterists can't win with futurists who, almost constantly accusing them of spiritualizing everything, find fault when they take words LITERALLY!

The NT is permeated with time words and time statements that clearly teach that Jesus was coming back in THAT generation to THOSE of that day.

Our view of time is completely different from God's. There is a big difference between God’s heavenly eternal perspective and our earthly temporal perspective, something you do not seem to grasp. The phrases “a long time” and “a short time” are all subject to the one talking, their perspective and the subject matter under discussion. From man's perspective 2000 years is a long time. From God's perspective it is not. Time is but a blink to His infinite mind and to the eternal state. Remember, God is “from everlasting” (Habakkuk 1:12, Psalms 93:2).

On this matter, a basic understanding of “time” and “eternity” will explain what we are looking at in Scripture. The phrase “at hand” or “near” is taken from the single Greek word eggizō, and simply means “approaches.” It is not time-specific. It can mean immediate or distant future, like our English word. In fact, it carries the exact same sense as our English word. It all depends upon the setting and the context in view. It carries a broad meaning and does not in any way demand an imminent fulfilment. Other words like “quickly,” “shortly” and “near,” express time from God’s eternal standpoint, not man’s natural position. It is therefore wrong to force our dim earthly sense of time upon God. It is definitely foolish to build a whole theology upon that.

Christ speaks of the last day, in Matthew 24:29-31, saying, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then (or) tote (or at that time) shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn (orkopsontai), and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

• When and why did all the tribes mourn in AD70?
• When did the “angels gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other” in AD70?

In your theology: everything is a massive Gnostic illusion. Anyway, there is no factual historic evidence of this occurring in the past. It only exists in the imaginations of Full Preterists.

To attribute the coming of Titus in AD 70 in 1 Peter 4:3-7 as the “end of all things” is laughable, unbiblical and irrational. It states: “the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: Who shall give account to Him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. But the end of all things is at hand.”

Peter continues in verse 13 of the same passage, whilst speaking of that great final event, by encouraging the believers, saying, “rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.”

The coming of Christ and the end of all things is near to God since He is not limited to time. What is more, what is considered near to Him can seem like a long time to us.

Peter informs us that “the end of all things” occurs at the Second Advent – the time when Christ shall judge “the quick and the dead” (or the living and the dead). The context here relates to judgment day when every human will stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of themselves to Christ. Moreover, he indicates, whilst the day of revelation of Christ is an awful day of woe for the wicked, it is a day of joy and reward for the righteous. Notwithstanding, and significantly, the judgment of the wicked and “the end of all things” is said to be “at hand” or eengiken meaning ‘to be near’ or ‘approaching.’

Notably, it is from the usage of this word that the Pretribbers argue for an imminent secret return of Christ rather than an impending all-consummating final return, as is biblical. Notwithstanding, whether one understands the term “at hand” as imminent or impending isn’t particularly important here, it is the fact that the judgment of the wicked coincides with the one final future all-consummating Second Advent. Also, the clear allusion of the judgment of “the living and the dead” unquestionably proves a general judgment as the A and Postmillennialists believes.

The second coming is all-consummating and ushers in the complete end of all things old, temporal, sinful and corrupt. His return introduces the beginning of all things new, eternal, righteous and God-glorifying.

In the new heavens and new earth there is going to be no more grief, grave stones or goodbyes. There is coming a day in the future when dying, crying, pain, sorrow and the curse will cease. Or put differently, there is going to be no sea, no sepulchers, no sorrow, no suffering. All the awful effects of sin have finally and eternally been expunged, namely death, disease, disaster, disappointment, depression, and despair. All things are now new.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Nope.
That miscue is a major one by preterists.

I believe the Holy Spirit guided me to the date of Revelation.
It dramatically destroys preterism.
The following is copy/paste from google;
"1) Domitianic Dating (95-96 AD):
Many scholars, including those from the Christian Courier, believe the book was written towards the end of Domitian's reign. This is based on the writings of Irenaeus, an early church father, who stated that Revelation was written "almost in our own day, toward the end of the reign of Domitian,"

2) The early church historian Eusebius also mentioned that John was banished to the island of Patmos during the reign of Domitian.

3)Clement of Alexandria lived in Egypt in Africa. It goes without saying that he lived far away from Irenaeus who lived in Lyons, France. As an independent testimony, Clement states that John was released from exile after a certain “tyrant” had died. He writes:
“When on the death of the tyrant he removed from the island of Patmos to Ephesus, he used to go off, when requested, to the neighbouring districts of the Gentiles also, to appoint bishops in some places, to organize whole churches in others, in others again to appoint to an order some one of those who were indicated by the Spirit.”[50]
Eusebius understands the expression “the death of the tyrant” to refer to “the death of Domitian.”

4) Victorinus wrote our earliest surviving commentary on the book of Revelation (AD 304). In it, he affirms the Domitianic date. He writes,
“When John said these things he was in the island of Patmos, condemned to the labor of the mines by Caesar Domitian. There, he saw the Apocalypse; and when grown old, he thought that he should at length receive his quittance by suffering, Domitian being killed, all his judgments were discharged. And John being dismissed from the mines, thus subsequently delivered the same Apocalypse which he had received from God.”[65]

This citation is straightforward. This means that our earliest known commentator held that John wrote Revelation under Domitian—not Nero."

This blows your entire doctrine out of the water.

A 2 MINUTE INVESTIGATION DESTROYING YEARS OF PRETERIST INVESTMENT.
God is good!
QUOTE/]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

A Stake in the heart of that damnable sick doctrine that Jesus is not coming back.

 

[rebuilder 454]

"Jesus is not coming back"

Heresy.
Vile nasty heresy.

 

[rwb]

What else is found in Matthew 24:30? The THEY are the "tribes of the land." This is the same meaning in Mark 13 and Luke 21. Pay attention to verse 33--"So also, when YOU see ALL THESE THINGS [signs] take place, YOU know that HE IS NEAR, AT THE VERY GATES." One must intentionally refuse to see the context here. THEY were to know when He was NEAR. There is NO ambiguity here.

Futhremore, those very disciples were to see the Abomination of Desolation. THEY were to recognize the signs of HIS COMING as surely as THEY recognized the coming of summer in the budding of the fig tree ("and all the trees" - Luke 21).

Who else saw the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven. Standing before Caiaphas and the Jewish leadership who were accusing Him of blasphemy, Jesus said to THEM--"YOU will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN" (Mat. 26:64). THEY saw Him coming on the clouds of heaven; the disciples saw Him coming on the clouds of heaven. THEY were all part of the "every eye" and the "tribes of the land" who were going to see Him coming (Rev. 1:7)--in A. D. 70. Those of the "tribes of the land" mourned because of Him when they realized that they wee being judged by God. This is irrefutable to anyone who will acknowledge the CONTEXT in which words are found. There are around TWENTY YEs in Matthew 24:1-34. WE are NOT the YE!

Jesus could not have been clearer about the timing--timing you refuse to acknowledge: "THIS generation will by no means pass away until ALL THESE THINGS take place" (vs. 34). Again, Jesus used that expression NINETEEN times, rwb. Look them up. He ALWAYS, ALWAYS meant those of HIS own day. You fight against this because you will not even consider the possibility that you are misunderstanding the NATURE of His return, the NATURE of the resurrection, and the NATURE of the judgment. When those things are properly and biblically understood, there is no conflict with the time words and the time statements. All is cohesive! Your wrong concepts cause you to stumble over simple words such as NEAR, SOON, ABOUT TO, AT HAND, SHORTLY, THIS GENERATION. You will never find cohesiveness between your false paradigm and the common, usual, typical, ordinary, plain meaning and implication of those words--words that are found in ABUNDANCE throughout the NT.

Many words, but you have NOT answered my question! Your doctrine truly is heretical!

 

[rebuilder 454]

"I believe the Holy Spirit guided me to the date of Revelation." Did He really? Why would He lead you to the wrong date? Hmmm.

"This blows your entire doctrine out of the water."

Before I begin my refute of your false assertions, let me tell you what "blows" you late-date advocates out of the water. You STILL MUST deal with the timing. What happened SHORTLY and what was NEAR in A. D. 96? John was shown those things which were to SHORTLY take place; the time was NEAR (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10). The timing problem does not disappear with your false late date--even though you try to ignore it.

Let's look at the FACTS--external and internal.

Let's first consider the EXTERNAL evidence you heavily and unjustifiably use to support an early date.

You cite the statement by Irenaeus--a statement considered to be AMGIBUOUS and unclear by many notable men. Here's what he wrote:

"We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For this was seen not very long time since, but almost in our day, toward the end of Domitian's reign."

The ambiguity comes in the antecedent of "that which was seen." What is the subject of this verb? Is it "him who saw the Apocalypse" (i.e., John) or the "Apocalypse" itself? First of all, we must consider that the original work of Irenaeus is no longer extant. Everything we have are translations--first mostly into ancient Latin. Of this, well-respected Church historian, John Laurence von Mosheim (History of Christianity in the First Three Centuries) wrote that Irenaeus' writings "have reached us merely through the medium of a wrtechedly barbarous and obscure Latin translation." Philip Schaff agreed (History of the Christian Church, 1:75) that the translation utilized "barbarous Latin." Those who translated Irenaeus added that the Latin version is "itself of the most barbarous character" (Roberts and Rambaut).

Also, there are notable scholars who view JOHN to be the subject of the verb, so your insinuation that everyone agrees that it is the Apocalyps is erroneous. Eusebius himself quoted Irenaeus, perhaps his primary source for his belief in a late date. So, his assumptions are based on an ambiguous statement scholars argue over. Not very decisive. There are noted fathers and others who placed John's banishment under the regin of Nero (I can provide them if you like--e.g., Jerome). It is also known that Irenaeus himself was confused about the reign he was referring to. Was it Domitian's reign (AD 81-96) or Trajan's reign (98-117). In one place he referred to the "end of Domitian's reign." In another he stated that John "continued with the Elders till the time of Trajan."`

What's the issue with all of this? The antecedent to what or who was seen is unclear and should not be used as some "slam dunk" against the early date. There is a strong possibility that Irenaeus stated that it was JOHN who was seen at the end of Domitian's reign and NOT the apacalypse. Perhaps you should do more than a "2-minute investigation" before boldly and groundlessly claiming that the fallible Church Fathers, who relied heavily on Irenaeus' very AMGIBUOUS statement, "blow" the truths of preterism "out of the water."

But let's get into the most significant proof of the early date: the Bible itself; the INTERNAL evidence.

Yes, God is good.

To be continued (Internal Evidence)

Quote
"There are noted fathers and others who placed John's banishment under the regin of Nero (I can provide them if you like--e.g., Jerome)"

Lol
The articles I posted do not magically go away because you gather people to make a false case.

You are busted friend.
The evidence is OVERWHELMING thst revelation was written AFTER 95 ad.

So much investment you have made in an out and out farce.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Jesus could not have been clearer about the timing--timing you refuse to acknowledge: "THIS generation will by no means pass away until ALL THESE THINGS take place" (vs. 34). Again, Jesus used that expression NINETEEN times, rwb. Look them up. He ALWAYS, ALWAYS meant those of HIS own day. You fight against this because you will not even consider the possibility that you are misunderstanding the NATURE of His return, the NATURE of the resurrection, and the NATURE of the judgment. When those things are properly and biblically understood, there is no conflict with the time words and the time statements.

Christ's return in AD 70 does not need for its true physical, bodily "nature" to be changed to avoid conflict with the imminent time statements. There is no conflict. Christ bodily returned in AD 70, just as He promised to those of the first-century generation, to gather ONLY the bodily-resurrected saints who had died up to that time, and to return to heaven with them. The living believers at that time were not taken to heaven. Scripture never promised a translation-type change at Christ's return for those believers who had not yet died physically.

The past bodily return of Christ in AD 70 does not eliminate a future coming for us today when the last group of saints will also be bodily-resurrected at His next bodily coming return. This also does not create a conflict with the Scriptures.

 

[HappyOma]

Lol.
Your silly conjecture needs revelation to be written in an impossible date.
It is overwhelming evidence it was written around 95 ad or so.

That TOTALLY annihilates your ENTIRE DOCTRINE.
YOUR SILLY DEAL IS BLOWN OUTTA THE WATER.
Like shooting ducks in a barrel.

What "overwhelming evidence." Those church fathers relied heavily on an AMBIGUOUS statement by Irenaeus. There is NO abundance of evidence.

Even if you incorrectly take the late date, rebuilder, you still must deal with the timing. But you refuse. John was shown those things which were to SHORTLY take place; the time was NEAR (A. D. 70 or A. D. 95--the time for those things was NEAR).

Let's look at the SUBSTANTIAL internal evidence that "annihilates your ENTIRE DOCTRINE."

1. Jewish persecution against Christians was not prevalent after the war with Rome of A. D. 67-70. Jesus had told His disciples right there with Him in the Olivet Discourse that they would suffer persecution: "They will lay their hands on YOU and will persecute YOU, delivering YOU up to SYNAGOGUES and prisons, bringing you befoe kings and governors for my name's sake." These things happened to those disciples and to Paul as well (Acts 24). There were those who persecuted the church of Smyrna (Rev. 2:9ff) who were described as the "synagogue of Satan." These were Jews of THAT day. After the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in A. D. 70, during which around one million Jews were killed and many, many others were taken into captivity, synagogues were no longer seats of persecution against believers. The Book of Revelation was written before A. D. 70!

2. In Revelation 3:9-11 we again find the synagogue persecution of the believers. Jesus told that apostate nation of Jews of His day: "Therefore, behold, I send to YOU prophets, wise men, and scribes. Some of them YOU will kill and crucify; and some of them YOU will scourge in your SYNAGOGUES, and persecute from city to city" (Mat. 23:34-35). Again, such persecution was not prevalent after A. D. 67-70). The Book of Revelation was written before A. D. 70!

3. Herod's Temple is still standing in Chapter 11. It is the "house" of the Jews which Jesus stated would be left unto THEM "desolate" (Mat. 23). The "court which is outside of the TEMPLE" was not to be measured because it was given to the GENTILES (Rev. 11:2). Jesus told His disciples about this: "But when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then [YOU] know that its DESOLATION is AT HAND. . . Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled" (Luke 21:20-24). Forty-two months (spring of 67 to fall of 70)--the duration of the Jewish/Roman war! There is NOTHING of this in A. D. 95. The Book of Revelation was written before A. D. 70.

4. The Two Witnesses prophesying for "one thousand two hundred and sixty days" (Rev. 11:3) is the length of the Jewish wars with Rome (67-70). Where are those 3.5 years after A. D. 95 (if one rightly acknowledges the meaning of SHORTLY and NEAR)? The Book of Revelatoin was written before A. D. 70!

5. The "dead bodies" in the streets of Jerusalem (Sodom and Egypt)--"where also their Lord was crucified." (Rev. 11:8). After the War, the Jerusalem of THAT day was completely destroyed. Where is it found SHORTLY affer A. D. 95? Josephus (an eyewitness to the destruction of A. D. 70), wrote the following about the demolished Jerusalem in his work, Wars of the Jews: "There was nothing left to make those that came thither believe it had ever been inhabited. This is the end which Jerusalem came to . . . a city otherwise of great magnificence, and of mighty fame among all mankind" (Wars, 7:1:1). The Book of Revelation was written before A. D. 70!

6. In Revelation 12, 6, 14, we again find the "one thousand two hundred and sixty days" and "a time, and times, and half a time." This is another reference to the 3.5 years. Here it concerns Christians who, obeying Jesus' admonition to "flee" (Mat. 24), fled from Jerusalem and the surrounding areas and took refuge in the mountains of Pella (Luke 21:20-24). The Book of Revelaton was written before A. D. 70!

To be continued (getting too long.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The Book of Revelaton was written before A. D. 70!

Yep. Absolutely irrefutable. More specifically, the internal evidence within Revelation itself pins down that composition date to a very narrow window of time between late AD 59 and early AD 60, just before the catastrophic AD 60 Laodicean earthquake which overwhelmed the city. John was writing to the seven churches just before that earthquake in Laodicea took place in AD 60, which is why God said that "I am ABOUT TO spue thee out of my mouth" (Rev. 3:16).

 

[rebuilder 454]

What else is found in Matthew 24:30? The THEY are the "tribes of the land." This is the same meaning in Mark 13 and Luke 21. Pay attention to verse 33--"So also, when YOU see ALL THESE THINGS [signs] take place, YOU know that HE IS NEAR, AT THE VERY GATES." One must intentionally refuse to see the context here. THEY were to know when He was NEAR. There is NO ambiguity here.

Futhremore, those very disciples were to see the Abomination of Desolation. THEY were to recognize the signs of HIS COMING as surely as THEY recognized the coming of summer in the budding of the fig tree ("and all the trees" - Luke 21).

Who else saw the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven. Standing before Caiaphas and the Jewish leadership who were accusing Him of blasphemy, Jesus said to THEM--"YOU will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN" (Mat. 26:64). THEY saw Him coming on the clouds of heaven; the disciples saw Him coming on the clouds of heaven. THEY were all part of the "every eye" and the "tribes of the land" who were going to see Him coming (Rev. 1:7)--in A. D. 70. Those of the "tribes of the land" mourned because of Him when they realized that they wee being judged by God. This is irrefutable to anyone who will acknowledge the CONTEXT in which words are found. There are around TWENTY YEs in Matthew 24:1-34. WE are NOT the YE!

Jesus could not have been clearer about the timing--timing you refuse to acknowledge: "THIS generation will by no means pass away until ALL THESE THINGS take place" (vs. 34). Again, Jesus used that expression NINETEEN times, rwb. Look them up. He ALWAYS, ALWAYS meant those of HIS own day. You fight against this because you will not even consider the possibility that you are misunderstanding the NATURE of His return, the NATURE of the resurrection, and the NATURE of the judgment. When those things are properly and biblically understood, there is no conflict with the time words and the time statements. All is cohesive! Your wrong concepts cause you to stumble over simple words such as NEAR, SOON, ABOUT TO, AT HAND, SHORTLY, THIS GENERATION. You will never find cohesiveness between your false paradigm and the common, usual, typical, ordinary, plain meaning and implication of those words--words that are found in ABUNDANCE throughout the NT.

25 When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the Lord thy God, to provoke him to anger:

26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.

27 And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you.

"Ye shall soon perish off the land"

Under your exegesis God lied.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Our view of time is completely different from God's. There is a big difference between God’s heavenly eternal perspective and our earthly temporal perspective,

You do err, not realizing that God is perfectly capable of addressing us in terms of timing that humanity has to deal with. All of Scripture's prophecies which had a time limit put upon them were fulfilled "in the fullness of time", just as God had predicted they would do. It is a vast mistake to think that God never deals in precise human time limitations when speaking through His prophets and servants. God actually boasts about His ability to call the timing of events long before they actually happen, as proof of His omniscience and His deity.

As for the timing of Revelation's composition, it is much more than just the AD 60 Laodicean earthquake that determined the AD 59/60 date for when Revelation was written. You apparently have not yet done a thorough study of all the date-determining language in the book of Revelation itself. All the internal evidence within Revelation itself squashes the late-date theory entirely.

 

[rebuilder 454]

What "overwhelming evidence." Those church fathers relied heavily on an AMBIGUOUS statement by Irenaeus. There is NO abundance of evidence.

Even if you incorrectly take the late date, rebuilder, you still must deal with the timing. But you refuse. John was shown those things which were to SHORTLY take place; the time was NEAR (A. D. 70 or A. D. 95--the time for those things was NEAR).

Let's look at the SUBSTANTIAL internal evidence that "annihilates your ENTIRE DOCTRINE."

1. Jewish persecution against Christians was not prevalent after the war with Rome of A. D. 67-70. Jesus had told His disciples right there with Him in the Olivet Discourse that they would suffer persecution: "They will lay their hands on YOU and will persecute YOU, delivering YOU up to SYNAGOGUES and prisons, bringing you befoe kings and governors for my name's sake." These things happened to those disciples and to Paul as well (Acts 24). There were those who persecuted the church of Smyrna (Rev. 2:9ff) who were described as the "synagogue of Satan." These were Jews of THAT day. After the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in A. D. 70, during which around one million Jews were killed and many, many others were taken into captivity, synagogues were no longer seats of persecution against believers. The Book of Revelation was written before A. D. 70!

2. In Revelation 3:9-11 we again find the synagogue persecution of the believers. Jesus told that apostate nation of Jews of His day: "Therefore, behold, I send to YOU prophets, wise men, and scribes. Some of them YOU will kill and crucify; and some of them YOU will scourge in your SYNAGOGUES, and persecute from city to city" (Mat. 23:34-35). Again, such persecution was not prevalent after A. D. 67-70). The Book of Revelation was written before A. D. 70!

3. Herod's Temple is still standing in Chapter 11. It is the "house" of the Jews which Jesus stated would be left unto THEM "desolate" (Mat. 23). The "court which is outside of the TEMPLE" was not to be measured because it was given to the GENTILES (Rev. 11:2). Jesus told His disciples about this: "But when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then [YOU] know that its DESOLATION is AT HAND. . . Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled" (Luke 21:20-24). Forty-two months (spring of 67 to fall of 70)--the duration of the Jewish/Roman war! There is NOTHING of this in A. D. 95. The Book of Revelation was written before A. D. 70.

4. The Two Witnesses prophesying for "one thousand two hundred and sixty days" (Rev. 11:3) is the length of the Jewish wars with Rome (67-70). Where are those 3.5 years after A. D. 95 (if one rightly acknowledges the meaning of SHORTLY and NEAR)? The Book of Revelatoin was written before A. D. 70!

5. The "dead bodies" in the streets of Jerusalem (Sodom and Egypt)--"where also their Lord was crucified." (Rev. 11:8). After the War, the Jerusalem of THAT day was completely destroyed. Where is it found SHORTLY affer A. D. 95? Josephus (an eyewitness to the destruction of A. D. 70), wrote the following about the demolished Jerusalem in his work, Wars of the Jews: "There was nothing left to make those that came thither believe it had ever been inhabited. This is the end which Jerusalem came to . . . a city otherwise of great magnificence, and of mighty fame among all mankind" (Wars, 7:1:1). The Book of Revelation was written before A. D. 70!

6. In Revelation 12, 6, 14, we again find the "one thousand two hundred and sixty days" and "a time, and times, and half a time." This is another reference to the 3.5 years. Here it concerns Christians who, obeying Jesus' admonition to "flee" (Mat. 24), fled from Jerusalem and the surrounding areas and took refuge in the mountains of Pella (Luke 21:20-24). The Book of Revelaton was written before A. D. 70!

To be continued (getting too long.

QUOTE
"4. The Two Witnesses prophesying for "one thousand two hundred and sixty days" (Rev. 11:3) is the length of the Jewish wars with Rome (67-70). Where are those 3.5 years after A. D. 95 (if one rightly acknowledges the meaning of SHORTLY and NEAR)? The Book of Revelatoin was written before A. D. 70!"

Wow
Proves absolutely zero.

 

[WPM]

You do err, not realizing that God is perfectly capable of addressing us in terms of timing that humanity has to deal with. All of Scripture's prophecies which had a time limit put upon them were fulfilled "in the fullness of time", just as God had predicted they would do. It is a vast mistake to think that God never deals in precise human time limitations when speaking through His prophets and servants. God actually boasts about His ability to call the timing of events long before they actually happen, as proof of His omniscience and His deity.

As for the timing of Revelation's composition, it is much more than just the AD 60 Laodicean earthquake that determined the AD 59/60 date for when Revelation was written. You apparently have not yet done a thorough study of all the date-determining language in the book of Revelation itself. All the internal evidence within Revelation itself squashes the late-date theory entirely.

Scripture very clearly differentiates between time and eternity. Time was introduced at beginning when there was a division made between darkness and light. Scripture shows us that time will continue right up until the second coming of Christ when time shall be no more. Jesus is going to suddenly put a stop to time.

“The last day” (singular) is shown in Scripture to occur at our Lord’s glorious appearing. This is the climatic “day of the Lord” that ushers in eternity. This is also known as “the end of the age.” It describes the end of time.

Revelation 10:1-3: “And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.”

The symbolism and authority surrounding this great heavenly angel proves beyond a doubt that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ and a picture of His glorious second coming. We will the symbolism shortly.

Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

There is clearly a major dilemma here for you those who take Revelation to be a literal chronological unfolding of last day events. They must surely concede, if they are going to be consistent with their view that everything after Revelation 11 (which also refers to the seventh trumpet) is in the realm of eternity and the after-life. After all, Revelation 10 plainly records that with this particular event “there should be time no longer.” For those who would lightly dismiss this important narrative as anything other than a magnificent picture of the Lord Jesus Christ and His glorious second coming, they do foolishly ignore the great wealth of explicit and consistent end-time teaching on this subject and divorce the undoubted harmony of this chapter from the rest of New Testament prophetic teaching.

This is undoubtedly the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. The undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.” Those who reject such evidence do so (in the main) in order to support the Preterist, Pretribulationist or Historist positions.

The King James Version interprets the passage correctly and in context: chronos ouketi estai – literally meaning: Time – no longer – there shall be’!!!

The whole import and wording of the remainder of the passage perfectly supports the King James Version rendering and confirms the all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, which says, “when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be etelesthee (or) finished.” It should be noted that the word etelesthee is a very strong climactic word that is rightly translated ‘finished’ in this reading and is consistently interpreted: completed, concluded, expired and accomplished.

This teaches us that time ceases to exist at the return of Christ. Time reaches its fullness. History itself is completed. That is why it adds “the mystery of God should be finished.” These are linked together in their fulfillment. This makes sense. We are now into eternity.

Ephesians 1:9-10 similarly says, “Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness [Gr. pleeroomatos or completion] of times [Gr. kairos] he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.”

The word translated “fullness” in this passage is pleeroomatos, which, significantly, means completion. This passage tells us that Jesus will come at ho pleroma ho kairos (or) “the completion [of] the times.” Time reaches its fullness at the climactic return of Christ. Time will only continue as long as humans continue to abide in mortal physical bodies with all their subsequent limitations.

The all-consummating nature detail of this text perfectly harmonizes with the repeated teaching of Scripture indicating that the second coming of the Lord is the end. It is an event that sees the gathering “together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth.” That is a happening that is always identified with the appearing of Christ. This is the final ingathering of the saints of God. This is glorification. The kingdom both in heaven and on earth are finally and completely bonded together forever at the consummation of all things.

 

[rebuilder 454]

What "overwhelming evidence." Those church fathers relied heavily on an AMBIGUOUS statement by Irenaeus. There is NO abundance of evidence.

Even if you incorrectly take the late date, rebuilder, you still must deal with the timing. But you refuse. John was shown those things which were to SHORTLY take place; the time was NEAR (A. D. 70 or A. D. 95--the time for those things was NEAR).

Let's look at the SUBSTANTIAL internal evidence that "annihilates your ENTIRE DOCTRINE."

1. Jewish persecution against Christians was not prevalent after the war with Rome of A. D. 67-70. Jesus had told His disciples right there with Him in the Olivet Discourse that they would suffer persecution: "They will lay their hands on YOU and will persecute YOU, delivering YOU up to SYNAGOGUES and prisons, bringing you befoe kings and governors for my name's sake." These things happened to those disciples and to Paul as well (Acts 24). There were those who persecuted the church of Smyrna (Rev. 2:9ff) who were described as the "synagogue of Satan." These were Jews of THAT day. After the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in A. D. 70, during which around one million Jews were killed and many, many others were taken into captivity, synagogues were no longer seats of persecution against believers. The Book of Revelation was written before A. D. 70!

2. In Revelation 3:9-11 we again find the synagogue persecution of the believers. Jesus told that apostate nation of Jews of His day: "Therefore, behold, I send to YOU prophets, wise men, and scribes. Some of them YOU will kill and crucify; and some of them YOU will scourge in your SYNAGOGUES, and persecute from city to city" (Mat. 23:34-35). Again, such persecution was not prevalent after A. D. 67-70). The Book of Revelation was written before A. D. 70!

3. Herod's Temple is still standing in Chapter 11. It is the "house" of the Jews which Jesus stated would be left unto THEM "desolate" (Mat. 23). The "court which is outside of the TEMPLE" was not to be measured because it was given to the GENTILES (Rev. 11:2). Jesus told His disciples about this: "But when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then [YOU] know that its DESOLATION is AT HAND. . . Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled" (Luke 21:20-24). Forty-two months (spring of 67 to fall of 70)--the duration of the Jewish/Roman war! There is NOTHING of this in A. D. 95. The Book of Revelation was written before A. D. 70.

4. The Two Witnesses prophesying for "one thousand two hundred and sixty days" (Rev. 11:3) is the length of the Jewish wars with Rome (67-70). Where are those 3.5 years after A. D. 95 (if one rightly acknowledges the meaning of SHORTLY and NEAR)? The Book of Revelatoin was written before A. D. 70!

5. The "dead bodies" in the streets of Jerusalem (Sodom and Egypt)--"where also their Lord was crucified." (Rev. 11:8). After the War, the Jerusalem of THAT day was completely destroyed. Where is it found SHORTLY affer A. D. 95? Josephus (an eyewitness to the destruction of A. D. 70), wrote the following about the demolished Jerusalem in his work, Wars of the Jews: "There was nothing left to make those that came thither believe it had ever been inhabited. This is the end which Jerusalem came to . . . a city otherwise of great magnificence, and of mighty fame among all mankind" (Wars, 7:1:1). The Book of Revelation was written before A. D. 70!

6. In Revelation 12, 6, 14, we again find the "one thousand two hundred and sixty days" and "a time, and times, and half a time." This is another reference to the 3.5 years. Here it concerns Christians who, obeying Jesus' admonition to "flee" (Mat. 24), fled from Jerusalem and the surrounding areas and took refuge in the mountains of Pella (Luke 21:20-24). The Book of Revelaton was written before A. D. 70!

To be continued (getting too long.

QUOTE
"3. Herod's Temple is still standing in Chapter 11. It is the "house" of the Jews which Jesus stated would be left unto THEM "desolate" (Mat. 23). The "court which is outside of the TEMPLE" was not to be measured because it was given to the GENTILES (Rev. 11:2). Jesus told His disciples about this: "But when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then [YOU] know that its DESOLATION is AT HAND. . . Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled" (Luke 21:20-24). Forty-two months (spring of 67 to fall of 70)--the duration of the Jewish/Roman war! There is NOTHING of this in A. D. 95. The Book of Revelation was written before A. D. 70."

Lol
John was in patmos. Not in Jerusalem.
It was all future.
The Witnessesaee spoken of as future.
A vision of the temple.
A vision of the 2 Witnesses.

Again your deal is a grand canyon leap of conjecture.
John WAS NOT TAKEN to Jerusalem

 

[rebuilder 454]

What "overwhelming evidence." Those church fathers relied heavily on an AMBIGUOUS statement by Irenaeus. There is NO abundance of evidence.

Even if you incorrectly take the late date, rebuilder, you still must deal with the timing. But you refuse. John was shown those things which were to SHORTLY take place; the time was NEAR (A. D. 70 or A. D. 95--the time for those things was NEAR).

Let's look at the SUBSTANTIAL internal evidence that "annihilates your ENTIRE DOCTRINE."

1. Jewish persecution against Christians was not prevalent after the war with Rome of A. D. 67-70. Jesus had told His disciples right there with Him in the Olivet Discourse that they would suffer persecution: "They will lay their hands on YOU and will persecute YOU, delivering YOU up to SYNAGOGUES and prisons, bringing you befoe kings and governors for my name's sake." These things happened to those disciples and to Paul as well (Acts 24). There were those who persecuted the church of Smyrna (Rev. 2:9ff) who were described as the "synagogue of Satan." These were Jews of THAT day. After the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in A. D. 70, during which around one million Jews were killed and many, many others were taken into captivity, synagogues were no longer seats of persecution against believers. The Book of Revelation was written before A. D. 70!

2. In Revelation 3:9-11 we again find the synagogue persecution of the believers. Jesus told that apostate nation of Jews of His day: "Therefore, behold, I send to YOU prophets, wise men, and scribes. Some of them YOU will kill and crucify; and some of them YOU will scourge in your SYNAGOGUES, and persecute from city to city" (Mat. 23:34-35). Again, such persecution was not prevalent after A. D. 67-70). The Book of Revelation was written before A. D. 70!

3. Herod's Temple is still standing in Chapter 11. It is the "house" of the Jews which Jesus stated would be left unto THEM "desolate" (Mat. 23). The "court which is outside of the TEMPLE" was not to be measured because it was given to the GENTILES (Rev. 11:2). Jesus told His disciples about this: "But when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then [YOU] know that its DESOLATION is AT HAND. . . Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled" (Luke 21:20-24). Forty-two months (spring of 67 to fall of 70)--the duration of the Jewish/Roman war! There is NOTHING of this in A. D. 95. The Book of Revelation was written before A. D. 70.

4. The Two Witnesses prophesying for "one thousand two hundred and sixty days" (Rev. 11:3) is the length of the Jewish wars with Rome (67-70). Where are those 3.5 years after A. D. 95 (if one rightly acknowledges the meaning of SHORTLY and NEAR)? The Book of Revelatoin was written before A. D. 70!

5. The "dead bodies" in the streets of Jerusalem (Sodom and Egypt)--"where also their Lord was crucified." (Rev. 11:8). After the War, the Jerusalem of THAT day was completely destroyed. Where is it found SHORTLY affer A. D. 95? Josephus (an eyewitness to the destruction of A. D. 70), wrote the following about the demolished Jerusalem in his work, Wars of the Jews: "There was nothing left to make those that came thither believe it had ever been inhabited. This is the end which Jerusalem came to . . . a city otherwise of great magnificence, and of mighty fame among all mankind" (Wars, 7:1:1). The Book of Revelation was written before A. D. 70!

6. In Revelation 12, 6, 14, we again find the "one thousand two hundred and sixty days" and "a time, and times, and half a time." This is another reference to the 3.5 years. Here it concerns Christians who, obeying Jesus' admonition to "flee" (Mat. 24), fled from Jerusalem and the surrounding areas and took refuge in the mountains of Pella (Luke 21:20-24). The Book of Revelaton was written before A. D. 70!

To be continued (getting too long.

Quote ;
"6. In Revelation 12, 6, 14, we again find the "one thousand two hundred and sixty days" and "a time, and times, and half a time." This is another reference to the 3.5 years. Here it concerns Christians who, obeying Jesus' admonition to "flee" (Mat. 24), fled from Jerusalem and the surrounding areas and took refuge in the mountains of Pella (Luke 21:20-24). The Book of Revelaton was written before A. D. 70!"

Nope nope nope.
We can all see the 3.5 yr time frame.
Jesus spoke of fleeing over 20 yrs before ad70.
We can all see the overlap of prophecy.
You are on a huge rabbit trail.
Again..you seek such bizarre "proof" desperate to shrug off the truth.

 

[3 Resurrections]

WPM, God never says that there will be an end to "time". Jesus never said He would "put a stop to time" at His return. And there are ages in eternity. Paul wrote about this from his perspective on the timeline. "That in the ages to come..." That is plural "ages" that Paul expected, that flow onward through history, and on into eternity.

I don't regard the KJV as the ultimate authority on their translation of "there shall be time no longer" as meaning the cessation of time altogether. Did you mom never tell you as a youngster, "Time's up!"? It didn't mean the end of time altogether at that point, but the end of a time-limited activity. Same thing is being referred to in Revelation. A more proper translation of this verse is "there shall be delay no longer". The power of Israel as a nation of tribes was going to be shattered at that point, (just as Daniel 12 foretold), and the mystery of God would be finished. This "mystery" was the open manifestation to all that God had established the "One New Man" reality, which did not have any tribal, gender, class, or racial distinctions in the body of Christ as children of God.

 

[rebuilder 454]

What "overwhelming evidence." Those church fathers relied heavily on an AMBIGUOUS statement by Irenaeus. There is NO abundance of evidence.

Even if you incorrectly take the late date, rebuilder, you still must deal with the timing. But you refuse. John was shown those things which were to SHORTLY take place; the time was NEAR (A. D. 70 or A. D. 95--the time for those things was NEAR).

Let's look at the SUBSTANTIAL internal evidence that "annihilates your ENTIRE DOCTRINE."

1. Jewish persecution against Christians was not prevalent after the war with Rome of A. D. 67-70. Jesus had told His disciples right there with Him in the Olivet Discourse that they would suffer persecution: "They will lay their hands on YOU and will persecute YOU, delivering YOU up to SYNAGOGUES and prisons, bringing you befoe kings and governors for my name's sake." These things happened to those disciples and to Paul as well (Acts 24). There were those who persecuted the church of Smyrna (Rev. 2:9ff) who were described as the "synagogue of Satan." These were Jews of THAT day. After the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in A. D. 70, during which around one million Jews were killed and many, many others were taken into captivity, synagogues were no longer seats of persecution against believers. The Book of Revelation was written before A. D. 70!

2. In Revelation 3:9-11 we again find the synagogue persecution of the believers. Jesus told that apostate nation of Jews of His day: "Therefore, behold, I send to YOU prophets, wise men, and scribes. Some of them YOU will kill and crucify; and some of them YOU will scourge in your SYNAGOGUES, and persecute from city to city" (Mat. 23:34-35). Again, such persecution was not prevalent after A. D. 67-70). The Book of Revelation was written before A. D. 70!

3. Herod's Temple is still standing in Chapter 11. It is the "house" of the Jews which Jesus stated would be left unto THEM "desolate" (Mat. 23). The "court which is outside of the TEMPLE" was not to be measured because it was given to the GENTILES (Rev. 11:2). Jesus told His disciples about this: "But when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then [YOU] know that its DESOLATION is AT HAND. . . Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled" (Luke 21:20-24). Forty-two months (spring of 67 to fall of 70)--the duration of the Jewish/Roman war! There is NOTHING of this in A. D. 95. The Book of Revelation was written before A. D. 70.

4. The Two Witnesses prophesying for "one thousand two hundred and sixty days" (Rev. 11:3) is the length of the Jewish wars with Rome (67-70). Where are those 3.5 years after A. D. 95 (if one rightly acknowledges the meaning of SHORTLY and NEAR)? The Book of Revelatoin was written before A. D. 70!

5. The "dead bodies" in the streets of Jerusalem (Sodom and Egypt)--"where also their Lord was crucified." (Rev. 11:8). After the War, the Jerusalem of THAT day was completely destroyed. Where is it found SHORTLY affer A. D. 95? Josephus (an eyewitness to the destruction of A. D. 70), wrote the following about the demolished Jerusalem in his work, Wars of the Jews: "There was nothing left to make those that came thither believe it had ever been inhabited. This is the end which Jerusalem came to . . . a city otherwise of great magnificence, and of mighty fame among all mankind" (Wars, 7:1:1). The Book of Revelation was written before A. D. 70!

6. In Revelation 12, 6, 14, we again find the "one thousand two hundred and sixty days" and "a time, and times, and half a time." This is another reference to the 3.5 years. Here it concerns Christians who, obeying Jesus' admonition to "flee" (Mat. 24), fled from Jerusalem and the surrounding areas and took refuge in the mountains of Pella (Luke 21:20-24). The Book of Revelaton was written before A. D. 70!

To be continued (getting too long.

Quote:
"5. The "dead bodies" in the streets of Jerusalem (Sodom and Egypt)--"where also their Lord was crucified." (Rev. 11:8). After the War, the Jerusalem of THAT day was completely destroyed. Where is it found SHORTLY affer A. D. 95? Josephus (an eyewitness to the destruction of A. D. 70), wrote the following about the demolished Jerusalem in his work, Wars of the Jews: "There was nothing left to make those that came thither believe it had ever been inhabited. This is the end which Jerusalem came to . . . a city otherwise of great magnificence, and of mighty fame among all mankind" (Wars, 7:1:1). The Book of Revelation was written before A. D. 70!"

Huh???
Really???
That is laughable.
You really should not go there.
Plain dumb.
It is future as anyone can plainly see.

 

[HappyOma]

Quote
"There are noted fathers and others who placed John's banishment under the regin of Nero (I can provide them if you like--e.g., Jerome)"

Lol
The articles I posted do not magically go away because you gather people to make a false case.

You are busted friend.
The evidence is OVERWHELMING thst revelation was written AFTER 95 ad.

So much investment you have made in an out and out farce.

Your "evidence" is controversial and debated among scholars. You look to external evidence because you have to--because the internal evidence is OVERWHELMING for the early date. But I see that you ignored. No surprise there. None is so blind as he who will not see.

You refuse to deal with the TIMING John was given. A. D. 70 or A. D. 96 advocates MUST deal with the TIMNG--SHORTLY, NEAR. You don't like what those words clearly indicate, so you ignore them. How do ever hope to come to any truth?