Porphyry wants to know

[Matthias]

“If Christ declares himself to be the way of salvation, the grace and truth, and affirms that in him alone, and only to souls believing in him, is the way of return to God, what has become of the men who lived in the many centuries before Christ came?”

What do you say to this ancient (3rd century) pagan critic of the way?

 

[JustMe]

“If Christ declares himself to be the way of salvation, the grace and truth, and affirms that in him alone, and only to souls believing in him, is the way of return to God, what has become of the men who lived in the many centuries before Christ came?”

What do you say to this ancient (3rd century) pagan critic of the way?

Many were saved by faith in God's promises, which ultimately pointed toward the coming of Jesus, the Son of God.

God desires all people to come to repentance and be saved. This implies that God's plan for salvation includes all people, regardless of when they lived. The belief is that God, in His sovereignty, has provided a way for all people to be reconciled to Him through Jesus Christ, even if they did not have direct knowledge of Him during their lifetime.

Still, one has to genuinely believe in true faith. No forced action

 

[Matthias]

Many were saved by faith in God's promises, which ultimately pointed toward the coming of Jesus, the Son of God.

God desires all people to come to repentance and be saved. This implies that God's plan for salvation includes all people, regardless of when they lived. The belief is that God, in His sovereignty, has provided a way for all people to be reconciled to Him through Jesus Christ, even if they did not have direct knowledge of Him during their lifetime.

Still, one has to genuinely believe in true faith. No forced action

Very good. I’m thinking along the same lines, JustMe.

What about those who had never even heard God’s promises?

 

[JustMe]

Very good. I’m thinking along the same lines, JustMe.

What about those who had never even heard God’s promises?

Well I see their lives were much 'closer' to the Father. Yes, some did not hear of his promises for their future. Still, their activities were sacred and holy. Their rituals from/of sin, for example, their adherence to dietary laws etc., were done in faith, in the service of God with deep reverence for him. This right heart of mind and actions counted for their righteousness.

.

 

[rockytopva]

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. - Genesis 3:19
I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.- Matthew 12:36-37
For it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment- Hebrews 9:27

 

[Matthias]

Well I see their lives were much 'closer' to the Father. Yes, some did not hear of his promises for their future. Still, their activities were sacred and holy. Their rituals from/of sin, for example, their adherence to dietary laws etc., were done in faith, in the service of God with deep reverence for him. This right heart of mind and actions counted for their righteousness.

.

I’m still hanging in there with your train of thought, JustMe.

Let me give you a hypothetical that is used in many seminary and Bible college classrooms. It is sometimes called “The Little Old Lady in Fiji” exercise, and it goes something like this:

There once was a little old lady who lived in Fiji 10,000 years ago. She had never heard of God or Jesus. She knew nothing about the prophets of Israel. She had never heard of any promises made by a God. She didn’t observe any special holy days or practice any dietary laws. She lived and died without knowing anything about anyone who didn’t live in Fiji, nor about anything that happened beyond Fiji. She nevertheless lived out her days in ways that we would recognize were righteous.

What will God do with the little old lady from Fiji?

 

[Matthias]

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. - Genesis 3:19
I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.- Matthew 12:36-37
For it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment- Hebrews 9:27

I don’t disagree with any of that, and I suspect Porphyry himself heard something very much like it from the Christians whom he encountered in the 3rd century. What does it say, though, about the fate of those who lived and died before the Messiah was sent and never heard anything at all about him, nor about the passages of scripture you quoted?

 

[talons]

There are factions of Christianity that pray for the dead , don't count me among them .

God always does as He see's fit in His eyes , I don't look for that to change .

 

[Matthias]

There are factions of Christianity that pray for the dead , don't count me among them .

God always does as He see's fit in His eyes , I don't look for that to change .

What is the hope (Is there any hope?) for those who - like the hypothetical little old lady in Fiji exercise - lived and died without knowing anything at all about God, or Jesus, or the Bible?

Will they simply be lost, thrown in the lake of fire, because they were born in a place and time of ignorance? And that through no fault of their own.

Porphyry rejected Christianity on this question.

 

[Matthias]

Proposition: There is a way to God which doesn’t involve knowing anything at all about Jesus and God’s promises.

Christians buck at that, and not without good reason.

Tough break, little old lady in Fiji who lived and died 10,000 years ago?

Or was God, despite her ignorance, working in her life and she responded well to it?

 

[Pearl]

“If Christ declares himself to be the way of salvation, the grace and truth, and affirms that in him alone, and only to souls believing in him, is the way of return to God, what has become of the men who lived in the many centuries before Christ came?”

God has always looked at the heart so would save those who loved Him and obeyed Him.

 

[talons]

What is the hope for those who - like the hypothetical little old lady in Fiji exercise - lived and died without knowing anything at all about God, or Jesus, or the Bible?

What @JustMe wrote below .

The belief is that God, in His sovereignty, has provided a way for all people to be reconciled to Him through Jesus Christ, even if they did not have direct knowledge of Him during their lifetime.

Will they simply be lost, thrown in the lake of fire, because they were born in a place and time of ignorance?

I hold to no petals of the tulip . Some would agree with this , not me .

Porphyry rejected Christianity on this question.

Intellectual reasoning alone has lead a lot of people to reject Christ . Reasoning of the heart would help .

 

[Matthias]

“The eternal destiny of a very large number of people throughout history who have not had access to the Gospel, and who enter eternity not knowing Jesus Christ, is a pressing problem for theology. It pits access against urgency. If we say there is equal access to salvation for all, including the unevangelized, we will be charged with eliminating the urgency of mission. But if we preserve the urgency, people will protest that this means millions will go to hell without any chance to avoid it. No decision is free from serious objection. Supporting access, stalwarts will claim that the motivation for missions has been undermined and will oppose thinking in this direction. Supporting urgency, sensitive souls will worry about the fairness issue.”

(Clark H. Pinnock, A Wideness in God’s Mercy, p. 150)

 

[talons]

Porphyry wants to know​

I had to have a location to identify our subject .

Porphyry of Tyre - Wikipedia

 

[Matthias]

God has always looked at the heart so would save those who loved Him and obeyed Him.

I agree. Is possible for someone who has never even heard of God to love and obey him?

 

[Matthias]

Porphyry wants to know​

I had to have a location to identify our subject .

Porphyry of Tyre - Wikipedia

I thought about including a link in the OP for the benefit of those who aren’t familiar with him. I decided not to but I know that it will be helpful for many. (I left it simply at him being a pagan who lived in the 3rd century, thinking that might suffice.)

I had a student one time who said he had never heard of Porphyry - a whole lot of people can identify with that - and added that when he first heard me mention the name he almost laughed out loud. When I asked him why he said that the thought which instantly came to him, not knowing where I was going with it, was: Porphyry Pig, a relative of the cartoon character Porky Pig.

To which I responded by laughing out loud.

 

[Matthias]

“What about the millions who died before the Good News of the kingdom reached them? Is it fair to exclude them without them having a chance to be saved? How can heaven be a delight for anyone who knows that there are large numbers of people suffering in a hell that they had no possibility of avoiding? Why should they suffer for a failure to hear the gospel that was due not to their sins but to the sins of others? God wants his house to be filled (Lk 14:23); how can it be filled without them?

Elton Trueblood puts the same question to orthodoxy: ‘Such a scheme is neat and simple, but it is morally shocking and consequently not a live option of belief for truly thoughtful or sensitive persons of any faith. What kind of a God is it who consigns men and women and children to eternal torment, in spite of the fact that they have not had even a remote chance of knowing the saving truth? What sort of God would create men and women in love, only to irrationally punish the vast majority of them? A God who would play favorites with his children, condemning some to eternal separation from himself while admitting others, and distinguishing between them wholly or chiefly on the basis of the accidents of history or geography, over which they had no control, would be more devil than God. In any case he would not even resemble Jesus Christ, and thus is a contradiction at the heart of the system. The effort to glorify Christ as the only true revelation of God presents a conception of the divine that is incompatible with the picture which Christ himself gives.”

(Clark H. Pinnock, A Wideness in God’s Mercy, pp. 149-150)

I think there‘s a good answer to the difficult question, and that it isn’t universalism.

 

[talons]

The Great Spirit .

Great Spirit

The Great Spirit, Wakan Tanka among the Sioux, Gitche Manitou in Algonquian, and in many Native American and First Nation cultures as the divine or the sacred

slife.org

 

[Matthias]

The Great Spirit .

Great Spirit

The Great Spirit, Wakan Tanka among the Sioux, Gitche Manitou in Algonquian, and in many Native American and First Nation cultures as the divine or the sacred

slife.org

Have you read this translation?

 

[talons]

View attachment 67358

Have you read this translation?

No , have you and if you did what did you think ?