Porphyry wants to know

[Matthias]

No , have you and if you did what did you think ?

I have. I purchased a copy several hears ago, due to my interest in native American culture. (My great grandmother on my father’s side of the family is 50 percent Cherokee.)

If you have a particular passage in mind, I’ll look it up, quote it for you, and let you decide for yourself.

 

[Matthias]

When I think about my native American ancestry, I often remember this scene from The Frisco Kid.

 

[talons]

I have. I purchased a copy several hears ago, due to my interest in native American culture. (My great grandmother on my father’s side of the family is 50 percent Cherokee.)

If you have a particular passage in mind, I’ll look it up, quote it for you, and let you decide for yourself.

Found it online .

(Matthew) Gift from Creator Tells the Good Story 1 | FNVNT Bible | YouVersion

 

[talons]

When I asked him why he said that the thought which instantly came to him, not knowing where I was going with it, was: Porphyry Pig, a relative of the cartoon character Porky Pig.

Found a picture of Porphyry Pig and of course he would be a rock-in' pig don't you know .

 

[Lambano]

“If Christ declares himself to be the way of salvation, the grace and truth, and affirms that in him alone, and only to souls believing in him, is the way of return to God, what has become of the men who lived in the many centuries before Christ came?”

What do you say to this ancient (3rd century) pagan critic of the way?

I suspect that Jesus MAY have been telling us explicitly in the Sheep and Goat Judgment prophecy (Matthew 25) how the Son of Man will judge the ethnon, those who are not part of God's people, those who might never have even heard of him: On the basis of how they treated "the least of these my brothers and sisters", whoever that might be.

Yes, I realize that this violates the sola fide principle taught in Romans 3:28 and Ephesians 2:8-9. Yet, it is firmly within the realm of Sola Christus, and (I could claim) within the realm of sola gratia.

How strange it is to believe that Christ said what He meant and meant what He said, and yet be considered a heretic. We can talk about it.

 

[Matthias]

I suspect that Jesus MAY have been telling us explicitly in the Sheep and Goat Judgment prophecy (Matthew 25) how the Son of Man will judge the ethnon, those who are not part of God's people, those who might never have even heard of him: On the basis of how they treated "the least of these my brothers and sisters", whoever that might be.

Yes, I realize that this violates the sola fide principle taught in Romans 3:28 and Ephesians 2:8-9. Yet, it is firmly within the realm of Sola Christus, and (I could claim) within the realm of sola gratia.

How strange it is to believe that Christ said what He meant and meant what He said, and yet be considered a heretic. We can talk about it.

Can we extend that idea back to the hypothetical little old lady from Fiji who lived 10,000 years ago, never met a disciple of Jesus, but treated her fellow pagan neighbors as if she had?

 

[marks]

“If Christ declares himself to be the way of salvation, the grace and truth, and affirms that in him alone, and only to souls believing in him, is the way of return to God, what has become of the men who lived in the many centuries before Christ came?”

What do you say to this ancient (3rd century) pagan critic of the way?

Share with him the Gospel. He will either accept or reject, but it won't be for such a lame excuse.

God has always had his witness in creation. When I was 10 years old I knew God existed simply because I saw the world and understood it didn't just happen.

Romans 1 tells us everyone has this knowledge, but some don't want to know, so they choose to forget.

Romans 1:18-24 KJV
18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23) And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

No one disbelieves God for "lack of evidence" or "lack of a witness".

This passage is clear. God has shown Himself to everyone though His creation, except some don't want to be responsible for that knowledge so they pretend they don't have it.

And of the one who asks such a question, well, God, what about them? But he's NOT them, he's heard the Gospel, and will either receive it, or reject it, and rejecting it, makes lame excuses, for the exact reason Romans says. He doesn't want to be accountable for what he knows. So he pretends he doesn't know it.

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

Share with him the Gospel. He will either accept or reject, but it won't be for such a lame excuse.

God has always had his witness in creation. When I was 10 years old I knew God existed simply because I saw the world and understood it didn't just happen.

Romans 1 tells us everyone has this knowledge, but some don't want to know, so they choose to forget.

Romans 1:18-24 KJV
18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23) And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

No one disbelieves God for "lack of evidence" or "lack of a witness".

This passage is clear. God has shown Himself to everyone though His creation, except some don't want to be responsible for that knowledge so they pretend they don't have it.

And of the one who asks such a question, well, God, what about them? But he's NOT them, he's heard the Gospel, and will either receive it, or reject it, and rejecting it, makes lame excuses, for the exact reason Romans says. He doesn't want to be accountable for what he knows. So he pretends he doesn't know it.

Much love!

God was at work even in ancient pagan religions?

 

[marks]

Yes, I realize that this violates the sola fide principle taught in Romans 3:28 and Ephesians 2:8-9. Yet, it is firmly within the realm of Sola Christus, and (I could claim) within the realm of sola gratia.

I don't think it violates anything. If we look at creation and realize there was a Creator, and then we look at ourselves, a product of that creation, and we have a conscience. So we can recognize that we've been make by Someone Who cares what we do and don't do. And when we find we do what we know we shouldn't, we can understand that we are going against our Creator. And if in seeing these things, we hope for mercy from our Creator, well, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

I don't see this being unscriptural.

Much love!

 

[marks]

God was at work even in ancient pagan religions?

What are you talking about?

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

What are you talking about?

Much love!

I’m talking about Pinnock’s suggestion.

 

[Wick Stick]

There once was a little old lady who lived in Fiji 10,000 years ago. She had never heard of God or Jesus. She knew nothing about the prophets of Israel. She had never heard of any promises made by a God. She didn’t observe any special holy days or practice any dietary laws. She lived and died without knowing anything about anyone who didn’t live in Fiji, nor about anything that happened beyond Fiji. She nevertheless lived out her days in ways that we would recognize were righteous.

What will God do with the little old lady from Fiji?

She just gets annihilated.

 

[Matthias]

She just gets annihilated.

Why? She lived her life as well as, if not better than, the average Christian.

 

[Lambano]

Can we extend that idea back to the hypothetical little old lady from Fiji who lived 10,000 years ago, never met a disciple of Jesus, but treated her fellow pagan neighbors as if she had?

WWJD?

I guess what we think Jesus would do in that situation reflects what we think we "know" of Jesus's character.

And that final dismissal, "Depart from me; I never knew you" rings in my ears.

 

[Matthias]

WWJD?

I guess what we think Jesus would do in that situation reflects what we think we "know" of Jesus's character.

And that final dismissal, "Depart from me; I never knew you" rings in my ears.

God is going to destroy those who never heard of Jesus but act righteously?

 

[Lambano]

I don't see this being unscriptural.

Thank you. As you can tell, I'm not comfortable playing off Jesus against Paul.

 

[Lambano]

God is going to destroy those who never heard of Jesus but act righteously?

I never did find out what the Psalmist meant when he wrote, "There is none righteous; no, not one." That thread got run into the ditch.

 

[Lambano]

There once was a little old lady who lived in Fiji 10,000 years ago. She had never heard of God or Jesus. She knew nothing about the prophets of Israel. She had never heard of any promises made by a God. She didn’t observe any special holy days or practice any dietary laws. She lived and died without knowing anything about anyone who didn’t live in Fiji, nor about anything that happened beyond Fiji. She nevertheless lived out her days in ways that we would recognize were righteous.

What will God do with the little old lady from Fiji?

If Jesus wants to let her into His kingdom, I'll let someone else tell Him, "Lord, you can't do that!"

 

[Matthias]

I never did find out what the Psalmist meant when he wrote, "There is none righteous; no, not one." That threat got run into the ditch.

Pinnock addresses it in his book. I’m glad you’re planning on reading it. I found it challenging when I was a student. I find it challenging now.

I believe there is a wideness in God’s mercy. How wide? That’s where it becomes difficult for us. Universalism goes too.

Online discussion forums are notorious for running threads into the ditch.

 

[marks]

I’m talking about Pinnock’s suggestion.

I see. So you have no response to what I wrote.

Much love!