Contending with the devil

[Behold]

See those 2 winged creations on the Ark?
Thats the Devil.........He's one of Those.
A Cherub.
But in His case he was a very special one.
-

 

[Matthias]

“But Michael, the archangel, when contending with the devil and arguing about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him an abusive condemnation, but said, ‘May the Lord rebuke you!’”

(Jude 9, WEB)

“D. Textual Matters. Since we do not have the original source of the narrative, close textual comparisons are impossible.”

(Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament, G.K. Beale and D.A. Carson, Editors, p. 1075)

 

[Matthias]

“But Michael, the archangel, when contending with the devil and arguing about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him an abusive condemnation, but said, ‘May the Lord rebuke you!’”

(Jude 9, WEB)

”C. The Context in Judaism. The incident that Jude (9) describes we know about from the church fathers, beginning with Clement of Alexandria (Fragments on the Epistle of Jude), who claims that Jude is quoting Assumption of Moses, an apocryphal work. But no extant manuscript preserves the story. There is, however, a manuscript (the Milan manuscript) that preserves another apocryphal book called Testament of Moses, whose ending has been lost. In a long excursus Bauckham (1988: 65-76 [cf. more briefly Davids 2006: 59-63]) argues that this lost ending is what originally preserved the story (that Jude here briefly relates) of Michael disputing with the devil over the body of Moses. The tradition of angels disputing with the devil goes back to Zech. 3:2 (referred to in §B above) and grows stronger in the literature of early Judaism (e.g., CD-A V, 17-18; 1QS III, 18-25; T. Ash. 6:4-6). The idea seems to be that when Moses dies, Satan wants to claim or destroy the body of Moses rather than bury him, perhaps on the grounds that Moses was a failure (just as Satan wants to claim Joshua, in some sense, in Zech. 3:2).”

(Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament, G.K. Beale and D.A. Carson, Editors, p. 1075)

Now we know, or have a very good idea about, where Jude is drawing his material from. Is it reliable? It is part of scripture, so that makes it reliable. Is everything written in apocryphal works reliable? Only that which is explicitly incorporated into the New Testament from those works should be viewed as reliable; reliable because Jude is inspired by God to write it in his epistle.

 

[Matthias]

… my intention was to discuss Jude alluding to an incident in the non-canonical Assumption of Moses and its relationship to Deuteronomy 34.

Now that we know the backstory on Jude and the additional reliable detail it provides, we can go back to Deuteronomy 34.

”So Moses the servant of Yahweh died there in the land of Moab, according to Yahweh’s word. He buried him in the land of Moab opposite Beth Peor, but no man knows where the tomb is to this day.”

(Deuteronomy 34:5-6, WEB)

What happened between the death of Moses and his burial? Jude tells us. Jude tells us what the author of this narrative in Deuteronomy didn’t tell us. That the narrative doesn’t tell us suggests that the author didn’t know.

We know, thanks to Jude, that a dispute between Michael and Satan actually occurred, that it is an historical event, and reality.

God knows where Moses is buried. Michael the archangel knows where Moses is buried. Satan knows where Moses is buried. To this day, no man knows precisely where Moses is buried. All we know is the general vicinity where he is buried.

What we also know is that Michael literally disputed with a real being, the devil; not a human being.

 

[Matthias]

“But Michael, the archangel, when contending with the devil and arguing about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him an abusive condemnation, but said, ‘May the Lord rebuke you!’”

(Jude 9, WEB)

“E. Jude’s Use of This Tradition. The critical expression ouk etolmesen krisin epenengkein blasphemias literally means ‘he did not dare to bring a judgment of slander,’ and it could be taken two ways. It could be rendered ‘he did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation’ against the devil (NIV), but it is difficult to comprehend how it is possible to slander the devil. It is better to render it ‘he did not dare to bring a condemnation of slander against him’ (NRSV) or, slightly more parapharastically, ‘he did not himself dare to condemn him for slander’ (TNIV). (The ESV’s ‘he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment’ is misleading because it takes Greek blasphemia to mean English ‘blasphemy.’) The flow of thought, then, is as follows:


The false teachers slander angels, probably accusing them of foisting the law which is moral requirements upon Moses. By way of contrast, Michael, whose position was indisputable, when disputing with the devil in a narrative which the devil was slandering Moses, would not accuse this fallen angel, whom all agree is evil, of slander. In doing this Michael refused to overstep his proper boundaries and take the place of God in judging evil. (Davids 2006: 62)


It has been suggested that Jude does not himself actually believe the story to be true but cites it to illustrate the moral point that the story makes (in much the same way that someone might cite a Harry Potter book or the film West Side Story to illustrate a point.) That may or may not be so, but it is wonderfully difficult to demonstate.

F. Theological Use. That God jealously preserves his prerogatives in the rebuke of Satan in the latter’s role as ‘the accuser of our brothers and sisters’ (Rev. 12:10) is finally extended, in Rev. 12, to those who overcome the devil not in their own name but rather on the basis of the blood of the Lamb.”

(Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament, G.K. Beale and D.A. Carson, Editors, p. 1075)

 

[Matthias]

“The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. - John 10:10

These words from Jesus may be very familiar to you. After all, we have an adversary - Satan. Have you ever stopped to ask why does God allow Satan to do this? Hidden within a question like this is another question that many have been asking for generations, why do bad things happen to good people?

I mean, isn’t God good?

Isn’t he more powerful than Satan? Can’t he stop Satan anytime he wants?

The answers to those questions are yes, yes, and yes. Well if the answer is yes, why doesn’t he?”

Why Does God Allow Satan to Steal, Kill, and Destroy? - Clarence Haynes

The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. – John 10:10 These words from Jesus may be very familiar to you. After all, we have an adversary—Satan. Have you ever stopped to ask why does God…

clarencehaynes.com

Those who aren’t able to comprehend that Satan is real aren’t able to answer the question. Often, they avoid the question entirely, suggesting that belief in the personality of Satan makes God weak and evil. Thinking themselves wise, they become unwise.

Don’t allow them to distract you from thinking about and searching for a biblical answer to the question.

The “yes” is absolute. Wrestle with the question; don’t avoid it.

 

[soberxp]

“But Michael, the archangel, when contending with the devil and arguing about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him an abusive condemnation, but said, ‘May the Lord rebuke you!’”

(Jude 9, WEB)

28:23
He that rebuketh a man afterwards shall find more favour than he that flattereth with the tongue.

He that rebuketh a devil afterwards shall find more favour than he that flattereth with the tongue.?!?!?!?!?;!;

 

[Matthias]

28:23
He that rebuketh a man afterwards shall find more favour than he that flattereth with the tongue.

He that rebuketh a devil afterwards shall find more favour than he that flattereth with the tongue.?!?!?!?!?;!;

Are you making the point that the proverb is speaking about man interacting with his fellow man, not man interacting with a fallen angel?

 

[soberxp]

Are you making the point that the proverb is speaking about man interacting with his fellow man, not man interacting with a fallen angel?

No, "May the Lord rebuke you!’”
He just following the word of Bible or the word of God.
When someone rebuke someone, meaning is teaching something good.

 

[Matthias]

No, "May the Lord rebuke you!’”
He just following the word of Bible or the word of God.
When someone rebuke someone, meaning is teaching something good.

Then how do you relate it to contending with the devil?

 

[Hiddenthings]

“The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. - John 10:10

These words from Jesus may be very familiar to you. After all, we have an adversary - Satan. Have you ever stopped to ask why does God allow Satan to do this? Hidden within a question like this is another question that many have been asking for generations, why do bad things happen to good people?

Wow no Scripture is safe!

 

[Hiddenthings]

Then how do you relate it to contending with the devil?

Well first it must be identified! You cannot do this from the Bible so the false accusers must be representative of something else.

 

[soberxp]

Then how do you relate it to contending with the devil?

"May the Lord rebuke you!’”

Following such commands is the way to fight the devil and evil, Do you think that directly abusing and destroying demons and evil is the true way to fight them?

"May the Lord rebuke you!’”

We all know it didn't end well for Satan and the devil.
But the angel still blessed and pray for them with words,"May the Lord rebuke you!’”

The Bible says bless your enemies and pray for them. Do you think that's a joke?

 

[Matthias]

"May the Lord rebuke you!’”

Following such commands is the way to fight the devil and evil, Do you think that directly abusing and destroying demons and evil is the true way to fight them?

"May the Lord rebuke you!’”

We all know it didn't end well for Satan and the devil.
But the angel still blessed and pray for them with words,"May the Lord rebuke you!’”

The Bible says bless your enemies and pray for them. Do you think that's a joke?

No.

Do you pray for the devil and the demons?

 

[soberxp]

No.

Do you pray for the devil and the demons?

Yes, and I would say the same Word,"May the Lord rebuke you!’”

 

[Matthias]

Yes, and I would say the same Word,"May the Lord rebuke you!’”

The fate of Satan and the demons has been settled. Praying for them won’t change that, nor will it cause them to stop what they’re doing.

 

[soberxp]

The fate of Satan and the demons has been settled. Praying for them won’t change that, nor will it cause them to stop what they’re doing.

Then it's not something I need to worry about.


12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

[Matthias]

Then it's not something I need to worry about.


12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

No one needs to worry about it. The devil and the demons can only do what God allows them to do. They are tools in his hands.

 

[Hiddenthings]

No one needs to worry about it. The devil and the demons can only do what God allows them to do. They are tools in his hands.

So, you're saying that God uses agents of evil as His instruments, that’s a significant claim.

@soberxp do you fully realise what Matthias is saying here?

 

[Lambano]

So, you're saying that God uses agents of evil as His instruments, that’s a significant claim.

@soberxp do you fully realise what Matthias is saying here?

Does the use of a lying spirit count?

19 And Micaiah said, “Therefore, hear the word of the Lord. I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the angels of heaven standing by Him on His right and on His left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one spirit said this, while another said that. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will entice him.’ 22 And the Lord said to him, ‘How?’ And he said, ‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You shall entice him, and you will also prevail. Go and do so.’ 23 Now then, behold, the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours; and the Lord has declared disaster against you.” (1 Kings 22:19-23)