Theistic Agnosticism - The honesty to admit we don't know everything

[St. SteVen]

Theistic Agnosticism - The honesty to admit we don't know everything​

This term came up in a discussion over coffee. I thought it was worth discussing further.

Being raised in the church, I was held in a bubble of "we have all the answers."
Now that I am an adult, I realize the reason for that. We DIDN'T have all the questions. I know, I know... (who does?)

What are the spiritual consequences for admitting that we don't know everything?

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[XtraPercept]

What are the spiritual consequences for admitting that we don't know everything?

Growth, progress, development, learning, expansion, increase. It is a wonderful truth just how little we know. Indeed, my only certainty is, as Paul professed, Christ crucified. All else is subject to change. Thinking does me no favors and speculation garners no truth, my goal is to listen and trust. Every one of His promises are true, of that I can be eternally certain.

 

[XtraPercept]

Did Jesus die to save us from God?

Can we really know with our mortal minds? It could certainly be said that way, but it is painting a glorious image in a frame too small to appreciate the beauty of the whole picture.

Is it even appropriate to suggest that this is knowledge we should seek to possess? I steer clear of what I cannot know because such pursuits rarely bode well for me. So, when I see a question like this, I would think the most appropriate response might be, "wouldn't you like to know?"

It was that very tree which ushered in death, the fruit of knowledge. All we need is provided, and in that day we shall ask for nothing.

This is to say that we can be certain of His resurrection but I do not feel it is our place, or at least certainly not mine, to seek His reasons beyond what He dispenses, as His dispensation is perfect in every way.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Did Jesus die to save us from God?

Can we really know with our mortal minds? It could certainly be said that way, but it is painting a glorious image in a frame too small to appreciate the beauty of the whole picture.

Is it even appropriate to suggest that this is knowledge we should seek to possess? I steer clear of what I cannot know because such pursuits rarely bode well for me. So, when I see a question like this, I would think the most appropriate response might be, "wouldn't you like to know?"

It was that very tree which ushered in death, the fruit of knowledge. All we need is provided, and in that day we shall ask for nothing.

This is to say that we can be certain of His resurrection but I do not feel it is our place, or at least certainly not mine, to seek His reasons beyond what He dispenses, as His dispensation is perfect in every way.

Perhaps you misunderstood the question. ???
It points to a futile doctrinal position about God and His"wrath".
As plans go, pointless.

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[Behold]

It points to a futile doctrinal position about God and His"wrath".

Still trying to deceive them and tell them there is no Hell, no Wrath of God, and everyone is going to heaven..
Stlll trying to lead unbelievers into Hell using a "Christians" forum by teaching your false gospel of "Universalism"... @St. SteVen
One day a Mod who knows something about God and loves The Lord and the NT is going to catch up with you.
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""Everyone who has faith in the Son has eternal life. But no one who rejects him will ever share in that life, and God will be angry with them forever.""

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath Remains on them.

New Living Translation
And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but Remains under God’s angry judgment.”

English Standard Version
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Berean Standard Bible
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God Remains on him.”

Berean Literal Bible
The one believing in the Son has eternal life, but the one not obeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

King James Bible
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

New King James Version
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

New American Standard Bible
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God Remains on him.”

NASB 1995
“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

NASB 1977
“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Legacy Standard Bible
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Amplified Bible
He who believes and trusts in the Son and accepts Him [as Savior] has eternal life [that is, already possesses it]; but he who does not believe the Son and chooses to reject Him, [disobeying Him and denying Him as Savior] will not see [eternal] life, but [instead] the wrath of God hangs over them continually.”

Christian Standard Bible
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who rejects the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God rremains on him.

American Standard Version
He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

 

[St. SteVen]

Still trying to deceive them and tell them there is no Hell, no Wrath of God...

What is the purpose of the "wrath" of God?

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[Behold]

What is the purpose of the "wrath" of God?

1.) "Judgement against sin"

2.) Later, in the Trib, its this.......Jesus = "taking vengeance (God's Wrath) on all who do not obey the Gospel". This is 2 Thess 1:8-9,

To "obey the gospel" is to BELIEVE IT.

So, a Deceiver like you, who teaches the false gospel of "Universalism" denies that sinners have to be saved and born again before they die, and instead can find God's forgiveness after they die a CHRIST REJECTOR........ So, you are literally using a "christian" forum to lead people into God's judgment......Literally into Hell itsef.
One day a Mod on This Forum, is going to stop you from continuing to use this "chiristian" site to do that to unbelievers.

 

[St. SteVen]

1.) "Judgement against sin"

Everyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

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[Behold]

Everyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

A Christ Rejector will not be saying "Jesus is Lord" by the Holy Spirit, because they dont have the Holy Spirit.
Didnt you know?
Now you do.
See, You have to be born again to have the Holy Spirit, and no DEAD Christ Rejector has the Holy Spirit, because they died never being born again.
And.... on that day of Judgment, they will bow, they will confess, that """Jesus is Lord"", and they wont like it, same as the Demons, and same as the Devil.

 

[St. SteVen]

A Christ Rejector will not be saying "Jesus is Lord" by the Holy Spirit, because they dont have the Holy Spirit.
Didnt you know?

Well, everyone will be saying "Jesus is Lord." Therefore, they will have the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:3
... no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

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[Behold]

Well, everyone will be saying "Jesus is Lord." Therefore, they will have the Holy Spirit.

Jesus explains that if you die never born again, you have "died in your sins".
You have committed the "unpardonable sin".. = dying un-pardoned ... unforgiven.
You will. not have the "Holy Spirit", as you will go to Hell and there is no Holy Spirit found in Hell.

You are leading unbelievers there today, @St. SteVen by telling them that they can die, as an unbeliever, never born again, never forgiven by Christ's Sacrifice to God on the Cross for their Sin.... and they will "have the Holly Spirit".
One day a Mod on This Forum, is going to realize you are using this forum to sell a false Gospel that tries to lead people to die unforgiven, and never born again, which sends them to Hell.
Look for it.

1 Corinthians 12:3
... no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Paul isn't talking to the people in Hell who died never born again... He's talking to people who are ALIVE.....not to those who went to hell, because they didnt have the Holy Spirit.... never born again.
I think even you can even figure this out, as its very obvious to a 4 yr old.

 

[St. SteVen]

Jesus explains that if you die never born again, you have "died in your sins".

Chapter and verse please. Thanks.

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[Behold]

Chapter and verse please. Thanks.

Before you come back to post the lie that "everyone will have the Holy Spirit who bow before Jesus and say He is Lord"'... be sure you realize 2 things.

1.) The Devil and the fallen angles will "bow", and they dont have the Holy Spirit and they will call Jesus "Lord"

2.) God requries FAITH in Jesus........and this is a special faith......its faith in what you can't SEE..... so, once you are dead, you will SEE what you can't see now...so, this will void "FAITH", in eternity, regarding everyone who dies never having faith in Christ on earth, not born again.

And if you are still believing that God is going to take care of your sin, after you die, then you are still in yours, as The Cross takes care of them before you die, or it never will @St. SteVen

So, Jesus said..
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John 8:24 New International Version I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.” New Living Translation That is why I said that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I Am who I claim to be, you will die in your sins.” English Standard Version I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.” Berean Standard Bible That is why I told you that you would die in your sins. For unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” Berean Literal Bible Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." King James Bible I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. New King James Version Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” New American Standard Bible Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.” NASB 1995 “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” NASB 1977 “I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.” Legacy Standard Bible Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins. For unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” Amplified Bible That is why I told you that you will die [unforgiven and condemned] in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am the One [I claim to be], you will die in your sins.” Christian Standard Bible Therefore I told you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.” Holman Christian Standard Bible Therefore I told you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."” American Standard Version I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for except ye believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. Contemporary English Version This is why I said you will die with your sins unforgiven. If you don't have faith in me for who I am, you will die, and your sins will not be forgiven." English Revised Version I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for except ye believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. GOD'S WORD® Translation For this reason I told you that you'll die because of your sins. If you don't believe that I am the one, you'll die because of your sins." Good News Translation That is why I told you that you will die in your sins. And you will die in your sins if you do not believe that 'I Am Who I Am'." International Standard Version That is why I told you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I AM, you'll die in your sins." NET Bible Thus I told you that you will die in your sins. For unless you believe that I am he, you will die in your sins." New Heart English Bible I said therefore to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am he, you will die in your sins." Webster's Bible Translation I said therefore to you, that ye will die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye will die in your sins. Weymouth New Testament That is why I told you that you will die in your sins; for, unless you believe that I am He, that is what will happen." Majority Text Translations Majority Standard Bible That is why I told you that you would die in your sins. For unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” World English Bible I said therefore to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.” Literal Translations Literal Standard Version I said, therefore, to you, that you will die in your sins, for if you may not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.” Berean Literal Bible Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." Young's Literal Translation I said, therefore, to you, that ye shall die in your sins, for if ye may not believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.' Smith's Literal Translation I said therefore to you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.

 

[St. SteVen]

John 8:24

New International Version
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

Here is your claim.

Behold said:
Jesus explains that if you die never born again, you have "died in your sins".

Nothing about being born again in John 8:24.

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[Behold]

Nothing about being born again in John 8:24.

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Listen.

If you dont die in your sins, this means you are forgiven your sins.... on EARTH...while you are still alive.......and that means you are born again before you died.

So, if you are not born again, then that is because you never trusted in Christ and were born again....while you were alive, so you will "die in your sins" and go into eternity unforgive, and there is no CROSS there........the CROSS of Christ is down here, available only when you are alive.

Being born again, means you wont die in your sins, because you are forgiven on earth, where it has to happen before you die.
Whereas when Jesus said that if you didnt believe in Him..... while you are breathing.......then you will "DIE... in your sins".
And this can't be remedied after you are dead, becasue you "DIED IN YOUR SINs"....never born again, never forgiven.
So, you hit eternity DAMNED, as that is what it means to die in your sins, as a person who was never born again on earth., never FORGIVEN your sin.

 

[St. SteVen]

1.) The Devil and the fallen angles will "bow", and they dont have the Holy Spirit and they will call Jesus "Lord"

What is a fallen "angle"? - LOL - a "wrecked" angle perhaps?
It would be the ultimate triumph of grace if/when God forgives the Devil and the fallen angels.

2.) God requries FAITH in Jesus........and this is a special faith......its faith in what you can't SEE..... so, once you are dead, you will SEE what you can't see now...so, this will void "FAITH", in eternity, regarding everyone who dies never having faith in Christ on earth, not born again.

What do you make of this? The Apostle says "as my gospel declares."

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law,
do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves,
even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,
their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes
accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets
through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

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[Behold]

What is a fallen "angle"? - LOL - a "wrecked" angle perhaps?

"fallen" in the sense of "having sinned".

It would be the ultimate triumph of grace if/when God forgives the Devil and the fallen angels.

See, you have this sci-fi Disney-Land idea regarding How God should behave according to your thinking.
This is why false "universalism" appeals to you......as that is how you want God to behave = Just overlook sin, forgive everyone, and lets have a party.
God is not not that ONE, and eternity is not a party.

The Cross shows you the INTENSE penalty for your sin.........Look at what happened to Jesus......what He suffered so that we can be forgiven and redeemed.
Apply that to a person in that context ..who has died Rejecting Christ, never forgiven........and maybe you can begin to see the gravity of the situation, that is to face a Holy God, "in your sins" which is to have committed the "unpardonable sin" of never being forgiven on Earth.
So, this is a very serious situation.....to be a sinner never forgiven and die.....and hit eternity, and face Holy God.
You face eternal consequences, and Opinions wont help anyone then, nor will a false gospel.

16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets
through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Romans 2.


This "day" is referring to the ""Judgement seat of Christ"" The "bema seat".......when Jesus is going to reward the Christian, according to "what have you done in my Body".
Their lifetime of serving Jesus is going to be REVEALED, because Jesus "knows their throughts" and their "deeds".. and they will receive rewards in Heaven, not according to their good deeds, but according to their MOTIVE for doing them all their Christian life.....as Jesus will SEE THEIR MOTIVE for each deed,.........was it pure or was it self serving and attention seeking?

Jesus knows your thoughts, as does God.

 

[St. SteVen]

Theistic Agnosticism - The honesty to admit we don't know everything​

This term came up this morning in a discussion over coffee. I thought it worth discussing further.

Being raised in the church, I was held in a bubble of "We have all the answers."
Now that I am an adult, I realize the reason for that.
We DIDN'T have all the questions. I know, I know... (who does?)

What are the spiritual consequences for admitting that we don't know everything?

 

[Behold]

What are the spiritual consequences for admitting that we don't know everything?

God does not require what isn't possible., and it would be impossible for anyone to know "everything".

However, Ecc 8:11 comes when a person 'holds the truth in unrighteousness".....and that includes knowingly teaching a demonic false gospel on a Chrisitan forum.

See "Universalism" for the definition of one such.

 

[St. SteVen]

God does not require what isn't possible., and it would be impossible for anyone to know "everything".

However, Ecc 8:11 comes when a person 'holds the truth in unrighteousness".....and that includes knowingly teaching a demonic false gospel on a Chrisitan forum.

See "Universalism" for the definition of one such.

That's a cheap shot. Not the first time from you.

Universalism was a leading doctrine in the early church of the east.
Which you call a "demonic false gospel". (for shame)

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96 German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor: "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."