Contending with the devil

[soberxp]

So, you're saying that God uses agents of evil as His instruments, that’s a significant claim.

@soberxp do you fully realise what Matthias is saying here?

3:1
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

The LORD God had made the serpent more subtle than any other beast.

I could only understand this way.

God does not tempt, but God's creation may tempt.

10:13
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1:12
Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Does the use of a lying spirit count?

19 And Micaiah said, “Therefore, hear the word of the Lord. I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the angels of heaven standing by Him on His right and on His left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one spirit said this, while another said that. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will entice him.’ 22 And the Lord said to him, ‘How?’ And he said, ‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You shall entice him, and you will also prevail. Go and do so.’ 23 Now then, behold, the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours; and the Lord has declared disaster against you.” (1 Kings 22:19-23)

Certainly! When you impose ideas onto Scripture that aren't actually found in the text, that's a form of dishonesty—whether done knowingly or out of ignorance. That’s why it’s absolutely essential to be able to support not only your core beliefs, but also the concepts that go along with them.

Maybe now you will understand the serious (and danger) of those who teach the fallacy of fallen angel theology.

 

[Lambano]

Certainly!

I'll take that as a concession that a) The 1 Kings text does say that Evil spiritual beings do ontologically exist; and b) God uses them for His purposes.

 

[Matthias]

3:1
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

The LORD God had made the serpent more subtle than any other beast.

I could only understand this way.

God does not tempt, but God's creation may tempt.

10:13
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1:12
Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Angels are part of God’s creation.

Have you been persuaded by the Christadelphian that the devil and the demons aren’t real personalities, rebellious angels?

 

[Hiddenthings]

I'll take that as a concession that a) The 1 Kings text does say that Evil spiritual beings do ontologically exist; and b) God uses them for His purposes.

I guess what you’re asking is for me to take your response and perspective more seriously, and I realize I may not have done that as much as I should have.

In my early days, I found this passage a bit perplexing, but once you become more familiar with Scripture, the account starts to make a lot more sense.

Personally, I don't see any issue with understanding this as a real occurrence. In other places, angels are referred to as "spirits" (e.g., Heb 1:13-14). Also, there's a connection to what Micaiah says he saw and what Paul writes in 2 Thess. 2:10-12. Regarding the "man of sin" and his followers, Paul says:

"...They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason, God sends them a strong delusion so that they will believe a lie and be condemned—all who did not believe the truth but delighted in wickedness."

Given that God uses angels to accomplish His will, and these individuals were already set on rejecting His truth, it doesn’t seem far-fetched to think God could send an angel to continue supporting the false messages of these prophets.

The real issue between us, Lambano, seems to be that you’re looking for these ethereal, evil spirits floating around the cosmos, but in reality, God has shown us that no power exists outside of His own.

How do you think God sends a strong delusion to people, and why would He do it? Can you think of a passage in Scripture that confirms this truth? Something about vessels of honor versus vessels of dishonor, perhaps?

Maybe you would try to stand on your morality and judge God, but the Bible doesn't approach things that way. A key principle is that God is not bound by the same laws He’s given to us. For instance, we are commanded not to kill, and it’s a sin if we do. But God can take life whenever He chooses. Similarly, with sending a delusion, the people God influences have already chosen to walk a sinful path, regardless of reason. God wouldn’t send a delusion to those who are truly seeking to love and serve Him.

One thing I do know Lambano is once again you claim fallen angels and I see a rare, possibly unique, insight into how the angels work to bring about God’s plan.

Hope that helps you in your search.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Angels are part of God’s creation.

Have you been persuaded by the Christadelphian that the devil and the demons aren’t real personalities, rebellious angels?

Maybe they’ve seen how weak your arguments are and the straightforward truth of interpreting Genesis 3:1.

 

[soberxp]

Angels are part of God’s creation.

Have you been persuaded by the Christadelphian that the devil and the demons aren’t real personalities, rebellious angels?

I don't believe in the story of fallen angels compiled by the Catholic Church or Christian Church. If you have to quote, why not just quote from the Book of Noah.

I know that Satan can control some weak-willed human beings and make them do anything, but never do anything honesty.

Many call it,
Be possessed by the devil.

 

[Matthias]

I don't believe in the story of fallen angels compiled by the Catholic Church or Christian Church.

You’re aware then that the Christian church has compiled it and you stand against the Christian Church in regard to that specific issue. I presume your belief on the matter is connected with Chinese mythology.

If you have to quote, why not just quote from the Book of Noah.

Do you have “the Book of Noah”?

I know that Satan …

In your anti-Christian Church understanding, who is Satan?

… can control some weak-willed human beings and make them do anything, but never do anything honesty.

Many call it,
Be possessed by the devil.

 

[Hiddenthings]

You’re aware then that the Christian church has compiled it and you stand against the Christian Church in regard to that specific issue. I presume your belief on the matter is connected with Chinese mythology.



Do you have “the Book of Noah”?



In your anti-Christian Church understanding, who is Satan?

@soberxp why does a devil believer want extrabiblical writings?

Because their beliefs are based on mythological concepts and they love religious traditions.

God's truth is not there.

 

[soberxp]

You’re aware then that the Christian church has compiled it and you stand against the Christian Church in regard to that specific issue. I presume your belief on the matter is connected with Chinese mythology.



Do you have “the Book of Noah”?



In your anti-Christian Church understanding, who is Satan?

3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Chinese myth, this picture is Nu Wa and Fu Xi, I personally think it should be Adam and Eve, this is just my personal understanding, Can't represent anyone else, I'm just curious if you follow the picture, the upper body is a person, the lower body is a serpent, then it shall not bruise thy head, and thou shalt not bruise his heel. The compass and square they hold represent rules and order in Chinese tradition.

If my guess is true, what a naive idea.

So how do you think about it?

I have read the Book of Noah, The angel fell in love with the beautiful woman of humanity,
And then caused the great flood.

I believe the serpent is the Satan,not fallen angel.

 

[Matthias]

View attachment 67520

3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Chinese myth, this picture is Nu Wa and Fu Xi, I personally think it should be Adam and Eve, this is just my personal understanding, Can't represent anyone else, I'm just curious if you follow the picture, the upper body is a person, the lower body is a serpent, then it shall not bruise thy head, and thou shalt not bruise his heel. The compass and square they hold represent rules and order in Chinese tradition.

If my guess is true, what a naive idea.

So how do you think about it?

I have read the Book of Noah, The angel fell in love with the beautiful woman of humanity,
And then caused the great flood.

I believe the serpent is the Satan,not fallen angel.

Do you believe Satan is literally a snake? Do you believe Satan is literally one specific man named Adam, the husband of one particular woman named Eve?

Is the passage speaking generically about a struggle between husbands and wives?

 

[soberxp]

Do you believe Satan is literally a snake?

Yes, I met the real Satan, and I couldn't understand what it was saying, and it sounded like a giant serpent Flicking its forked tongue with a soft 'th-th-th' , It's a bit like The straw makes that awful slurping sound as it struggles to pull up the last drops, only to come up empty. I can't see it only the voice of it.

Do you believe Satan is literally one specific man named Adam, the husband of one particular woman named Eve?I

I only believe in seed of serpent and seed of women as what God has told in the Bible.

s the passage speaking generically about a struggle between husbands and wives

Maybe about struggle between seed of serpent and seed of women.

You need to know that Chinese mythology is usually a riddle, it does not directly convey a meaning, but may contain many meanings, Many people think of it as a myth, but it is the real history that is buried in the myth.

 

[Matthias]

Yes, I met the real Satan, and I couldn't understand what it was saying, and it sounded like a giant serpent Flicking its forked tongue with a soft 'th-th-th' , It's a bit like The straw makes that awful slurping sound as it struggles to pull up the last drops, only to come up empty. I can't see it only the voice of it.

That’s helpful. You believe the real Satan is literally a snake.

If I understand you correctly, the Book of Noah is the story of Noah contained in the Book of Genesis and an unnamed angel fell in love with an unnamed woman and (for what reason?) caused the flood.

I only believe in seed of serpent and seed of women as what God has told in the Bible.

Who or what is the seed of the literal snake and the seed of literal women?

Maybe about struggle between seed of serpent and seed of women.

Does the Messiah play any role in your understanding of the seed of the one woman, Eve?

You need to know that Chinese mythology is usually a riddle, it does not directly convey a meaning, but may contain many meanings, Many people think of it as a myth, but it is the real history that is buried in the myth.

Thanks.

 

[Matthias]

Yes, I met the real Satan, and I couldn't understand what it was saying, and it sounded like a giant serpent Flicking its forked tongue with a soft 'th-th-th' , It's a bit like The straw makes that awful slurping sound as it struggles to pull up the last drops, only to come up empty. I can't see it only the voice of it.

Thinking about your personal meeting with the real Satan, a literal snake - would you say that you encountered the same creature that Eve encountered in the Garden of Eden? If you do, how do you account for Eve being able to understand the snake and you weren’t able to understand the snake?

Where did you encounter the Satan? Do you have any idea about what the snake’s purpose was for meeting you?

Do you believe the snake is immortal?

 

[Matthias]

@soberxp given your belief that the Satan is literally a snake, would it be right to think that you believe the demons are also literally snakes?

If you were to walk up on a snake in the woods - a snake which in some way you would be able to distinguish from the Satan - would you say that you walked up on a demon?

 

[soberxp]

I understand you correctly, the Book of Noah is the story of Noah contained in the Book of Genesis and an unnamed angel fell in love with an unnamed woman and (for what reason?) caused the flood.

Sorry, I wrote the wrong title.

Book of Enoch

Through human righteousness were born beautiful maidens.When the angels saw that the women of humanity were beautiful, they swore to each other to marry them.

The Book of Enoch records the names of those angels, yet omits the names of the women.

(Perhaps because the angelic idea has no evil,just my guess.) The offspring born of angels and human women became the Nephilim [giants], who consumed all food supplies before turning to cannibalism, until the earth was saturated with wickedness.

Who or what is the seed of the literal snake and the seed of literal women?

Both the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman represent humanity,
You coud help the Understanding with the Picture of Chinese mythology.

Does the Messiah play any role in your understanding of the seed of the one woman, Eve?

The seed of the woman are those who are born of the Holy Spirit.

 

[soberxp]

Thinking about your personal meeting with the real Satan, a literal snake - would you say that you encountered the same creature that Eve encountered in the Garden of Eden? If you do, how do you account for Eve being able to understand the snake and you weren’t able to understand the snake?

Where did you encounter the Satan? Do you have any idea about what the snake’s purpose was for meeting you?

Do you believe the snake is immortal?

I don't know, but at least it's alive so far. It's a spiritual being, not the snakes we meet on this earth.

@soberxp given your belief that the Satan is literally a snake, would it be right to think that you believe the demons are also literally snakes?

If you were to walk up on a snake in the woods - a snake which in some way you would be able to distinguish from the Satan - would you say that you walked up on a demon?

The serpent in the Bible is something as what the Bible told to us,
There was, there is not, there will be

The serpent once existed in myths and legends in many places, but they don't exist now and will exist in the future.

But that's just my guess. It's not necessarily true. Maybe the Bible means something else.

 

[Matthias]

 

[Hiddenthings]

It’s important to let at least one thread on this topic run its full course, even into madness because the more extreme and imaginative the views posted, the clearer the truth ultimately becomes by contrast.

 

[Matthias]

How did the “devil and the demons aren’t real” crowd wind up in their error? In part, by not recognizing that the Bible itself, while not ignoring them - as if that were even possible - doesn’t dwell on them. They’re real, they’re active, and their time is short. Don’t focus on them. Focus on God and the Messiah.