Archaeological proof of Christ's AD 70 bodily return
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First of all, to be a bit more exact, it wasn't scorpions - it was those creatures termed "locusts" who had tails like scorpions who were not allowed to hurt the 144,000 First-fruits with God's seal in their foreheads.
And yes, it was during the years of the "Great Tribulation" for those in Judea and Jerusalem (called "the days of vengeance") in which the 144,000 First-fruits were still on earth in their glorified resurrected bodies - the many Matthew 27:52-53 saints who were in a perfected state. Of course, any glorified resurrected individual is impervious to injury of any kind, whether you consider those "locusts" of Rev. 9:3-11 to be physical opponents or something spiritual in nature (or both).
And yes, these 144,000 First-fruits resurrected ethnic Jewish individuals from all those various tribes WERE gathered in a harvest before another main harvest resurrection which took place in AD 70. The Matthew 27:52-53 144,000 First-fruits remained on earth from their AD 33 bodily resurrection until they were taken with the rest of the resurrected saints with Christ to heaven back in AD 70. In those intervening years between AD 33 and 70, they were "sealed" as a sign of God's protection until they were to be caught up to heaven with the returning Christ.
The "locusts" with "hair like women" and "crowns like gold" with "tails like scorpions" were the Roman soldiers under the command of the evil Roman governor over Judea , Gessiuis Florus in AD 66. That "hair like women" was the crest of trailing horsehair mounted on top of the Roman "Gallic G" helmets in use during the AD 60's. The "crowns like gold" were the brass band circling the forehead portion of the helmets. The "tails like scorpions" were the Roman soldiers' field ballistic weapon called "the scorpion". It had a tricky tension mechanism called a "tormenta". This five-month episode of torment for the civilian population in Judea from May through September of AD 66 was planned by the evil governor to goad the Jews into a rebellion against Rome by the soldiers' harassment and persecution of the citizens of Judea. Incidentally, this May through September period of the year is typical for natural plagues of real locusts in this region. Hence the symbolism John adopted by calling these Roman soldiers "locusts" in this prophecy, because they were harassing and tormenting the citizens during these exact five summer months of AD 66 . But nothing these Roman soldier "locusts" could do was able to harm the sealed,144,000 Jewish resurrected First-fruits in their glorified state.
This prophecy was fulfilled long ago. It is not in our future.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
LOL. Wrong. Only in your imagination.
Yeah, you are just such an expert on the original language. Sure.
Okay, so that means He was the first to be resurrected unto bodily immortality. The only other ones to be resurrected unto bodily immortality that Paul mentions are those who belong to Christ and that will happen at His future second coming. No third coming and no more resurrections after that. Paul knew what he was talking about, so if there was going to be a third coming and another resurrection he would have said so, but he did not.
They are firstfruits spiritually, not bodily. Like what James wrote about here...
James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Anybody with a moderate interest in doing language research into these things has the tools readily available to do so online. I am certainly not at the professorial doctorate level that my brother is, but that level isn't really necessary to form some really basic conclusions regarding the first-century fulfillment of the NT prophecies.
There are others who have compiled lists of over a hundred time-relevant terms in the NT which pin down the date of the prophesied events to the first century. I'm certainly not going to list them all here, but they are available for anybody who wishes to read them. It is hardly my "imagination".
No, that is not what the "First-fruits" term means, by the way Scripture itself defines it. I am not making up the definition. I am going by the way the Jews from Scripture understood that title. And Revelation is a VERY Jewish book, with constantly-repeated OT references to terms, practices, and predictions by the prophets.
Did you take special note of the words "a KIND of"? That means it is a sort of, a little bit like the real deal "First-fruits", in some sense. The real deal "First-fruits" was the first-ripened handful of the barley harvest to be presented in the temple - a picture portraying the first group bodily resurrection event of the 144,000 ethnic Jews selected from 12 tribes, bodily resurrected in AD 33. James was employing that bodily-resurrection First-fruits imagery for his audience of the "twelve tribes which are scattered abroad" as a comparison to the spiritual resurrection that those Jewish saints had experienced as being some of the first Jews converted to the faith.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
<Yawn>
So, some of what you believe came from other people's imaginations. Certainly not from scripture.
The context of Jesus being the firstfruit(s) is in terms of being the first to be bodily resurrected unto bodily immortality. The context of the resurrection of the dead in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 is related to being bodily resurrected and then changed to put on bodily immortality, as can be seen in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. The order Paul gave is Christ first and then next will be those who belong to Christ at His future second coming. That's it. Deny it all you want, but the text is very clear.
LOL. You are butchering the text yet again. No, it does not mean they were sort of or a little bit like the real deal firstfruits. LOL! That is ridiculous. No, they were truly firstfruits in the sense that they were the first Christians and were the first to put their trust in Jesus Christ for their salvation. They were a spiritual kind of firstfruits in the sense of being the first to put their faith in Christ and become His born again followers.
No, I would hardly call a simple list of over a hundred Scripture quotes that speak of a first-century coming without any commentary "other people's imagination".
The "First-fruits" group WAS bodily resurrected to bodily immortality. But it wasn't composed of a single person. It was a harvested group with the "First-fruits" title, with Christ being one of them.
No, that NOT "it". Paul goes on in verse 24 to continue his list of resurrection events with another at the "END", which is in our future. Ordinary history continues onward in time after Christ's second coming. We can tell this by the "year to year" progress of time in Zechariah 14:16 which continues to progress in this world AFTER Christ's second coming, as described earlier in Zechariah 14:4-5.
Also, if we compare the periods of regular tribulation taking place in this world AFTER the "great tribulation" in Matthew 24:21, none of them are ever able to duplicate that of the former "great tribulation" ("...nor ever shall be.") Yet Christ returns "immediately after the tribulation of those days". That means history continues to flow onward in time LONG AFTER Christ's second coming in Matt. 24:29-30 which came "immediately after" the great tribulation. You and I are now in that post-second-coming period - in the "year to year" progress of time AFTER Christ's second coming mentioned in Zechariah 14:4-5, which took place "in that day" when Judah and Jerusalem were under siege in the AD 66-70 period.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Their understanding of those scriptures comes from their imaginations.
That is not taught anywhere in scripture. Certainly not in 1 Corinthians 15:20-23. You are blatantly contradicting what Paul taught which is that Christ's resurrection was the first and next in order are those who belong to Him at His second coming. That's it. You are trying to add to scripture and that is shameful.
Yes, it is. Do you see any other reference to any other resurrection there? No, you do not. You have to invent that in your imagination and try to force it into the text when it isn't there at all.
LOL. What? This is lunacy. Nowhere does Paul reference another resurrection in verse 24. You just continue to embarrass yourself with your blatant twisting of scripture.
pandaflower
Well-Known Member
Forgive me,that seems in contradiction to your earlier remarks.
The point being, if the second coming didn't happen in 70A.D. less than a generation from the departure of Jesus,then Jesus missed his promise of returning before that generation,40 yrs., passed away.
edit:fixed typo
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
He made no such promise. You are misinterpreting the text. Do you believe that the second coming happened in 70 AD? Are you a full preterist?
He is speaking of that evil generation of unbelief will not pass away until He returns, afterwards, after His return the earth will be restored as a new earth in which dwells righteousness as Peter says.
All the wicked are consumed at His second coming, which is the Day of the Lord.
We do not yet see that earth do we, in which dwells righteousness, the wicked are still here.
Luke 11
Seeking a Sign
29 And while the crowds were thickly gathered together, He began to say, “This is an evil generation. It seeks a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah [h]the prophet. 30 For as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so also the Son of Man will be to this generation. 31 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here. 32 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
2 Peter 3, whole chapter is relevant to this discussion
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2 Peter 3
New King James Version
God’s Promise Is Not Slack
1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of [a]us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward [c]us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
The Day of the Lord
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be [d]burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
Be Steadfast
14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.
In the Old Testament we can read of that promised Day
God did send Elijah as John the Baptist before this Day which Jesus confirmed
We do not yet see the confirmation of the second coming, ask yourself has all this come to pass in 70 AD>
The proud and the wicked still fill the earth.
Malachi 4
Burning like an oven,
And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.
And the day which is coming shall burn them up,”
Says the Lord of hosts,
“That will leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But to you who fear My name
The Sun of Righteousness shall arise
With healing in His wings;
And you shall go out
And grow fat like stall-fed calves.
3 You shall trample the wicked,
For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet
On the day that I do this,”
Says the Lord of hosts.
4 “Remember the Law of Moses, My servant,
Which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel,
With the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
6 And he will turn
The hearts of the fathers to the children,
And the hearts of the children to their fathers,
Lest I come and strike the earth with a curse.”
God did send Elijah as John the Baptist before this Day which Jesus confirmed
We do not yet see the confirmation of the second coming, ask yourself has all this come to pass in 70 AD>
The proud and the wicked still fill the earth.
Malachi 4
New King James Version
The Great Day of God
1 “For behold, the day is coming,Burning like an oven,
And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.
And the day which is coming shall burn them up,”
Says the Lord of hosts,
“That will leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But to you who fear My name
The Sun of Righteousness shall arise
With healing in His wings;
And you shall go out
And grow fat like stall-fed calves.
3 You shall trample the wicked,
For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet
On the day that I do this,”
Says the Lord of hosts.
4 “Remember the Law of Moses, My servant,
Which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel,
With the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
6 And he will turn
The hearts of the fathers to the children,
And the hearts of the children to their fathers,
Lest I come and strike the earth with a curse.”
What is so "lunatic" about a bodily resurrection in our future at the "END" when Christ delivers up the kingdom to God and puts down all rule, and all authority and power? You yourself believe this is scheduled for our future, do you not? But by the manner in which Paul enumerates his list in 1 Cor. 15:22-24, this is THIRD on his list - not second.
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rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
I am not the one protecting doctrine via torturing verses.
I told you my view of scripture is it comes from heaven.
That means God is bigger.
Bigger than man and bigger than His book.
The verses that "seem" in contradiction are in no way contradictory.
If I have no understanding of a verse, I need to say so, or simply add " this is my opinion".
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
This generation that Jesus was speaking to, did pass away ,and they did not see all those things fulfilled
... and in the other verse where Jesus says to His disciples; "not a hair on your head will be harmed/ perish".
Seems to contradict that all were murdered brutally by satan.
Ok, nothing there is contradictory, God is not a fool.
God does not make mistakes.
... and he does not lie.
So the problem is, humanoids trying to mentally unpack those things.
They need to go to heaven and find out what is being said, Because the Bible is a spiritual book written by a spiritual God.
And it's to be interpreted in the spirit.
Not with an English teacher.
The proud and the wicked are still present outside the gates of the New Jerusalem in Revelation 22:14-15 in the New Heavens and New Earth reality. "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." Sinners and sinful activity still going on outside the open gates of the New Jerusalem.
The phrase "...wherein dwelleth righteousness" in 2 Peter 3:13's description of the NHNE does not say that there is nothing but righteousness in the New Heavens and the New Earth reality. Isaiah 65's NHNE reality says the same thing. There are still sinners living and dying in the NHNE reality in Isaiah 65:20.
John the Baptist was sent to that "wicked and perverse generation" to make the people of Israel prepared for Christ's first coming. The majority were going to reject the message of the kingdom and their promised Messiah. Therefore, John's message in Luke 3:9 said "And NOW also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees; every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." This "axe" was already being wielded as John was saying those words, chopping down the members of that nation who were not bearing good fruit. These chopped-down trees would be cast into the fire soon, because Christ told that generation, "I am come to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!"
The "great and dreadful day of the Lord" for Israel's people in Malachi 4's prophecy (after John the Baptist's ministry) was fulfilled in the AD 66-70 period when the ethnic Jewish nation was destroyed, both root and branch. Daniel called it "shattering the power of the holy people." (Dan. 12:7). Their "root and branch" being destroyed meant the end of their genealogical records of proving their past tribal ancestry or the possibility of proving any future tribal connection would be burned up.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Paul does not mention any resurrection after Christ's future second coming, so you are trying to add something to the text that isn't there. Your 3 comings of Christ and 3 resurrections theory is a joke.
pandaflower
Well-Known Member
Luke 21
“And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
You are denying God's words.
There is nothing good and spiritual about that.
Jesus spoke to every generation to watch for His coming again.
There is only one body and one Shepherd and they are all of one faith and unity.
God does not split the body into two parts, separated by the destruction in 70AD, that is the old covenant things ending forever.
The body of Christ is one body, the entire body of Christ through all time experiences the resurrection on the last day. They are in complete unity as one.
John 17
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
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1 Cor 15
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death
After Christ returns, then comes the end, when He gives the kingdom to the Father. There is no more evangelizing, people getting saved. There are no more days to come. It becomes the eternal state.
John 11:24
Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
John 12:48
He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him— the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
EXB
There is a judge for those who ·refuse to believe in [reject] me and do not accept my words. The word I have ·taught [spoken] will ·be their judge [judge them] on the last day.
NIV
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.
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See now, if there is 'last day' and surely there is, then there are no more days after that.
The sun moon stars, mark the days, and they will no longer do that when Christ returns, because the Lamb, Christ is the light of the world.
If there are no more days, there are no more marriages, births, deaths, the passage of time. All the former things of this world are done away with.
Matthew 22
The Sadducees: What About the Resurrection?
23 The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, 24 saying: “Teacher, Moses said that if a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. 25 Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh. 27 Last of all the woman died also. 28 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her.”29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are [f]mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels [g]of God in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” 33 And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.
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When Christ returns, this is the resurrection of the dead.
All the dead in Christ for example are raised.
1 Thessalonians 4
The Comfort of Christ’s Coming
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen [b]asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Jesus didn't come in 70 AD. Until you acknowledge that, I have no reason to take you seriously.
pandaflower
Well-Known Member
You're addressing the wrong person.
I haven't said Jesus returned in 70 a.d
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