In Defense of OSAS – Why "Once Saved, Always Saved" Is the Heart of the Gospel

[BreadOfLife]

Hypothetical: A saved man just committed a sin. He is on his way home to pray about it and repent but his car is t-boned in the driver door and he is dead.
Upon appearing before the Lord, he is told, "Oh, my. You didn't repent of that last sin. Too bad. You are gone!"

Do you all not see the problem here? Nobody can define the threshold for the alleged loss of salvation without running aground of subjective definition, meaning that you people live in fear all the time, not knowing if you have made the cut. If you're not living in fear within that belief system, that makes you a nihilistic fatalist. That is not to what we are called as followers of Christ.

BTW

There is NO problem here.

Hod KNOWS your heart better than YOU do. Je knows that the sin you committed is weighing on you – which is the work of the Holy Spirit. Just like the Thief on the cross who didn’t need to be baptized or say a “sinner’s prayer” of repentance – your intent to confess was enough.

Go knows where the Thief’s heart was – and He knows where YOURS is.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

NOT sure why you assume that this is MY interpretation or based on MY authority.
This is the interpretation of the Church for the last 2000 years.

The Early Church Fathers all taught that salvation was something that could be lost by one’s own doing - including those taught by the Apostles themselves., When it comes to matters of interpretation, I submit to the Authority of Christ’s Church and NOT to my own, as commanded by the Scriptures (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15).

No

the early church did not

the perverted church did

 

[Eternally Grateful]

WHO is boasting?

I was merely stating the FACT that the Scriptures warn us that we can fall away and be cut-off by our OWN doing.

Not me

But you boast more than anyone I know. especially about your church..

Scripture does not say we can lose salvation.

We can fall away from faith (before we act on it)

we can be lifted up

but the seal of the spirit will not be broken until it is no longer needed. on the day of redemption.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No
the early church did not

the perverted church did

I guess, you can continue to live in denial, if it helps . . .

However, the Early Church, indeed taught against the idea of OSAS. The Didache, Letters of Barnabas, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen, Augustine, etc., ALL speak out against the idea of OSAS.

John Calvin was the one who invented the false doctrine in the 16th century.

Matthew 23:37
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but YOU WERE NOT WILLING!"

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I guess, you can continue to live in denial, if it helps . . .

However, the Early Church, indeed taught against the idea of OSAS. The Didache, Letters of Barnabas, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen, Augustine, etc., ALL speak out against the idea of OSAS.

John Calvin was the one who invented the false doctrine in the 16th century.

Matthew 23:37
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but YOU WERE NOT WILLING!"

no

the pagan church did this

But even in scripture Paul and others had to fight false teachers trying to add works to grace of God.

Paul actually called people who thought we begin in the spirit (faith) but perfect in the flesh (works) fools

so no matter who it is, or how long ago they said it

if they are preaching we perfect our salvation by the flesh (works) they are fools (pauls words not mine)

now if you want to follow fools. Feel free.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Not me
But you boast more than anyone I know. especially about your church..

Scripture does not say we can lose salvation.
We can fall away from faith (before we act on it)

we can be lifted up

but the seal of the spirit will not be broken until it is no longer needed. on the day of redemption.

Sorry, but you’re WRONG . . .

The Bible is crystal-clear that born-again believers in Christ can fall away and LOSE their security by their OWN doing – NOT His:

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.


Protestant Scholars on “Epignosis”:
Richard Chenevix Trench
“In comparing epignosis with gnosis, the “epi” must be regarded as an intensive use of a preposition that gives the compound word a greater strength than the simple word alone possesses” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).

Quoting Culverwell, he writes, “Epignosis and gnosis differ. Epignosis is the complete comprehension after the first knowledge (gnosin) of a matter. It is bringing me better acquainted with a thing I knew before; a more exact viewing of an object that I saw before afar off. That little portion of knowledge which we had here shall be much improved, our eye shall be raised to see the things more strongly and clearly” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).

He goes on to say on the same page, “All Paul’s uses of epignosis justify and bear out this distinction. This same intensive use of epignosis is confirmed by similar passages in the New Testament and in the Septuagint. It also was recognized by the Greek fathers. Thus Chrysostom stated: ‘You knew (egnote), but it is necessary to know thoroughly (epignonai).”

J.B. Lightfoot
“The compound epignosis is an advance upon gnosis, denoting a larger and more thorough knowledge...Hence also epignosis is used especially of the knowledge of God and of Christ, as being the perfection of knowledge” (St. Paul’s Epistles to the Colossians and Philemon, page 138).

Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words
“epignosis, akin to A, No. 3, denotes "exact or full knowledge, discernment, recognition,"

“… in John 8:32, ‘ye shall know the truth,’ Gnosis (ginosko) is used, whereas in 1 Tim. 4:3, “them that believe and know the truth,’ Epignosis (epiginosko) lays stress on participation in the truth.”

The New Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon (page 237):
1. Precise and correct knowledge
2. Knowledge of things ethical and divine
3. Of God, especially knowledge of His holy will and of the blessings which He has bestowed and constantly bestows on men through Christ
4. Of Christ, i.e., the true knowledge of Christ’s nature, dignity, benefits
5. Of God and Christ, i.e., to keep the knowledge of the one true God which has illumined the soul

Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, volume 2, page 25:
1. Knowledge as recognition of the will of God that is effective in the conduct of the one who knows God
2. Christian faith

 

[BreadOfLife]

no
the pagan church did this

But even in scripture Paul and others had to fight false teachers trying to add works to grace of God.

Paul actually called people who thought we begin in the spirit (faith) but perfect in the flesh (works) fools

so no matter who it is, or how long ago they said it

if they are preaching we perfect our salvation by the flesh (works) they are fools (pauls words not mine)

now if you want to follow fools. Feel free.

Then refute the verses I have presented.
Explain why they ALL state that we CAM lose our security by our own doing (Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 10:12, 1 Tim. 4:1, 1 Tim. 4:16, 2 Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb. 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-21, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Sorry, but you’re WRONG . . .

The Bible is crystal-clear that born-again believers in Christ can fall away and LOSE their security by their OWN doing – NOT His:

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

Knowledge does not mean they accepted and accted on what they knew..

This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

100% if you had the truth in your hands and did not act on it. and turned back (as many jewws did) you will have to spend all eternity thinking of how close you were. it will be far worse for you.

PS. I am not a protestant. Keep the protest stuff to yourself. I do not consider the roman church a church. so can not protest her.

I just stick to the bible..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Then refute the verses I have presented.
Explain why they ALL state that we CAM lose our security by our own doing (Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 10:12, 1 Tim. 4:1, 1 Tim. 4:16, 2 Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb. 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-21, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).

I am still waiting on you to refute these.

John 1: 11: 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12. But AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED HIM, to THEM he gave the right to become children, even TO THEM WHO BELIEVE 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (no works)

John 3, FOR God so loved the world he gave his only son that WHOEVER BELIEVES (trusts) in him will NEVER PERISH, and LIVE FOREVER (eternal life) for the son was not sent to judge, but that the world might be saved, he who BELIEVES is NOT CONDEMNED, he who does not believe is condemned already (no works)

John 4: 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will NEVER THIRST. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into EVERLASTING LIFE” (no works)

John 5: 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he whoever HEARS MY WORD and BELIEVES IN HIM WHO SENT ME who sent Me HAS ETERNAL LIFE and SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT but HAS PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE (No works)

John 6: 35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. HE WHO COMES TO ME shall NEVER HUNGER and he who BELIEVES IN ME shall NEVER THIRST (NO WORKS)

John 6: 37: and THE ONE WHO COMES TO ME I WILL BY NO MEANS CAST OUT 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, thatof all He has given Me I SHAL LOSE NOTHING, but SHOULD RAISE IT UP ON THE LAST DAY. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that EVERYONE WHO SEES AND BELIEVES IN HIM MAY HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE AND I WILL (NOT MIGHT) RAISE HIM ON THE LAST DAY (NO WORKS)

John 6: 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, HE WHO BELIEVES IN ME HAS EVERLASTING LIFE. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that THAT ONE MAY EAT OF IT AND NOT DIE 51 am the living bread which came down from heaven. IF ANYONE EATS THIS BREAD HE WILL LIVE FOREVER (NO WORKS)

John 6: 63 It is the SPIRIT WHO GIVES LIFE ; the flesh profits nothing. THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK to you ARE SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE (SIGNIFYING THE BREAD FROM HEAVEN, THE FLESH AND BOOD ARE THE WORDS JESUS SPOKE. NOT THE PHYSICAL FOOD OR WORKS,)

EPH 1: 13 In Him YOU ALSO TRUSTED , after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also ,HAVING BELIEVED YOU WERE SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE 14 who IS THE GAURANTEE OF OUR INHERITANCE until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

THE INHERITANCE HE SAID WE ALREADY HAD IN THE 1ST 12 VERSES. (AGAIN, NO WORKS)

eph 2: 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses,MADE US ALIVE together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and RAISED US UP TOGETHER , and MADE US SIT TOGETHER IN HEAVENLY PLACES 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED (A COMPLETED ACTION) THROUGH FAITH , (AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED) and that NOT OF YOURSELVES ; it IS THE GIFT OF GOD, 9 NOT OF WORKS LEST ANYONE SHOULD BOAST (NO WORKS)

rom 4: 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD AND HE ACOUNTED IT TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now TO HIM WHO WORKS, THE WAGES ARE NOT COUNTED AS GRACE BUT DEBT (Works cancels out grace. and makes it a wage) 5 But TO HIM WHO DOES NOT WORK but BELIEVES ON HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE UNGOLDY , his HIS FAITH IS ACCOUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS (AGAIN NO WORKS. PERIOD)

rom 4: 16 Therefore IT IF OF FAITH THAT IT MAY BE ACCORDING TO GRACE , so that THE PROMISE MAY BE SURE TO ALL THE SEED not only to those who are of the law, but also TO THOSE WHO ARE OF THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM , who is the father of us all (AGAIN, NO WORKS, IT IS OF GRACE THROUGH FAITH)

Rom 4: 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but ALSO FOR US, IT SHALL BE IMPUTED TO US WHO BELIEVE IN HIM WHO RAISED UP JESUS OUR LORD FROM THE DEAD , 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was RAISED BECAUSE OF OUR JUSTIFICATION (AGAIN NO WORKS)

Rom 11: 6 And IF BY GRACE, THAN IT IS NO LONGER OF WORKS, ; otherwise GRACE IS NO LONGER GRACE.But IF IT IS OF WORKS, THEN IT IS NO LONGER OF GRACE. OTHERWISE WORK IS NO LONGER WORK (AS i HAVE SAID NUMEROUS TIME, GRACE + WORKS = WORKS.. GRACE AND WORKS CAN NOT MIX IN THE AREA OF SALVATION. ITS LIKE MIXING OIL AND WATER)

2 Tim 1: 9 who HAS SAVED US (A COMPLETED ACTION) and called us with a holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS , but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE AND GRACE which was GIVEN TO US in Christ Jesus BEFORE TIME BEGAN (AGAIN, NO WORKS. BUT GRACE)

Titus 3: 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS (GOOD DEEDS) WHICH WE HAVE DONE , but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED USthrough the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that HAVING BEEN JUSTIFIED BY HIS GRACE we should become HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE
(AGAIN, NO QUESTION HERE. PAUL LEAVES NO QUESTION. NO GOOD DEED CAN SAVE US,. WE ARE SAVED BY GODS MERCY, AND GIVEN THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE. WHICH IS PROMISED BEFORE TIME BEGAN

Titus 1: 2 in HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE which GOD WHO CAN NOT LIE PROMISED BEFORE TIME BEGAN

this is what our faith is in, the grace and mercy of God. not our deeds.

show me where works are required. and were salvation is not eternal.

AND PS. why would I waste my time, You claim You have gods word. and no one else does.

it does not matter what I say.. You think I privately interpret.

however. those verses have been refuted by myself and many others many times over.

But when you listen to men. and think you have arrived.. You will not listen

Not to mention. You think the bread from heaven, the flesh is a wafer that can not give what Jesus promised.

so why would we listen to you anyway?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Knowledge does not mean they accepted and accted on what they knew..

WRONG.
You're talking about "knowledge" as oida/gnosis.

The verses I gave you use the term "Epignosis" - and I already proved to you that this means MUCH more than simple "knowledge".

The fact that you've chosen to ignore this speaks VOLUMES . . .

100% if you had the truth in your hands and did not act on it. and turned back (as many jewws did) you will have to spend all eternity thinking of how close you were. it will be far worse for you.

That's exactly what thgose with Epignosis have and can be in danger of LOSING . . .

PS. I am not a protestant. Keep the protest stuff to yourself. I do not consider the roman church a church. so can not protest her.

I just stick to the bible..

I never acused you of beng a Protestant. I mever even accused you of being a Christian because I don't knowyour story.

However - If you ARE a non-Catholic/non-Orthodox Christian - you are by definition, a "Protestant" . . .

 

[soberxp]

Once obey always obey?
Once obey must obey?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

WRONG.
You're talking about "knowledge" as oida/gnosis.

The verses I gave you use the term "Epignosis" - and I already proved to you that this means MUCH more than simple "knowledge".

The fact that you've chosen to ignore this speaks VOLUMES . . .

That's exactly what thgose with Epignosis have and can be in danger of LOSING . . .

I never acused you of beng a Protestant. I mever even accused you of being a Christian because I don't knowyour story.

However - If you ARE a non-Catholic/non-Orthodox Christian - you are by definition, a "Protestant" . . .

good day.. Your have bought catholic propoganda completely.

 

[BreadOfLife]

good day.. Your have bought catholic propoganda completely.

No - I've bought into Biblical truth . . .

 

[BeforeThereWas]

NOT sure why you assume that this is MY interpretation or based on MY authority.
This is the interpretation of the Church for the last 2000 years.

The Early Church Fathers all taught that salvation was something that could be lost by one’s own doing - including those taught by the Apostles themselves., When it comes to matters of interpretation, I submit to the Authority of Christ’s Church and NOT to my own, as commanded by the Scriptures (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15).

Oh. I see now where you're coming from. That wafer should have been a dead giveaway. Your words have the ring of Roman Catholicism. You're right...in some respects. Various strange and pagan doctrines have indeed been the fodder and fare of the RCC for centuries, but not 2000 years. Maybe about 1700 or so with Constantine being the founder of the RCC after declaring his form of pagan "christianity" the state religion, but not 2000 years. That was in about the fourth century.

The evolving doctrines of the RCC through the centuries has spoken loudly and clearly of the man-made nature of that religion. God is not so fickle as to not remain consistent in all things when it comes to moral absolutes and His Law in how He dealt with sin and doctrines of practice, which had well-defined Law governing ritual and sacrifice. As an Israelite, I'm well acquainted with that.

Granted, you perhaps won't agree with all that, which carries no weight whatsoever against history that has resisted the alterations of the monks and priests and popes of the RCC. You see, I was once a part of a cult, following blindly its claims and tenets until I began to study the integrity of the Bible, which shoved the man-made traditions and demands of religions into the back seat where they belong before being jettisoned out into the dung pile where they belong.

The word of God is all that matters. Again, you may not agree with that, which is on you, not me. Christ is not transformed into wafer form nor in a drink of grape juice or wine. Taking symbiology and trying to make it real through the force and power of suggestion and fearmongering by way of teaching about the fictitious "purgatory," that's the only thing that keeps the membership going back each week. I was told that by quite a number of RCC followers. If it weren't for fear of that, they would not go back to darken the doorstep of any of those mausoleums.

I'm not attacking you personally, but rather a series of historic falsehoods with a known history of progression. You can beat others over the head by calling it THE church if you want. That's ok, but it's not THE church to all the rest out here. It's one thing to have progressive revelation through dispensations, but quite another when doctrines arise within a system whereby those doctrines oppose by standing in stark contrast to the written, inspired word of the One, true God.

I would hope, then, that we can both agree that the Creator of the universe is always true, and that all men are liars by comparison, as it is written in the Bible inspired by the Most High God. The RCC once stood strongly against such things as homosexuality, which became embraced with a neutral embrace by your Francis. I'm sure he's regretting that now, but that's between him and his Creator. We cannot judge him one way or the other apart from saying that he was and is dead wrong about that and a number of other things that resulted from his liberal leanings that many roman catholics here in the West strongly disagree.

BTW

 

[BreadOfLife]

Oh. I see now where you're coming from. That wafer should have been a dead giveaway. Your words have the ring of Roman Catholicism. You're right...in some respects. Various strange and pagan doctrines have indeed been the fodder and fare of the RCC for centuries, but not 2000 years. Maybe about 1700 or so with Constantine being the founder of the RCC after declaring his form of pagan "christianity" the state religion, but not 2000 years. That was in about the fourth century.

The evolving doctrines of the RCC through the centuries has spoken loudly and clearly of the man-made nature of that religion. God is not so fickle as to not remain consistent in all things when it comes to moral absolutes and His Law in how He dealt with sin and doctrines of practice, which had well-defined Law governing ritual and sacrifice. As an Israelite, I'm well acquainted with that.

Granted, you perhaps won't agree with all that, which carries no weight whatsoever against history that has resisted the alterations of the monks and priests and popes of the RCC. You see, I was once a part of a cult, following blindly its claims and tenets until I began to study the integrity of the Bible, which shoved the man-made traditions and demands of religions into the back seat where they belong before being jettisoned out into the dung pile where they belong.

The word of God is all that matters. Again, you may not agree with that, which is on you, not me. Christ is not transformed into wafer form nor in a drink of grape juice or wine. Taking symbiology and trying to make it real through the force and power of suggestion and fearmongering by way of teaching about the fictitious "purgatory," that's the only thing that keeps the membership going back each week. I was told that by quite a number of RCC followers. If it weren't for fear of that, they would not go back to darken the doorstep of any of those mausoleums.

I'm not attacking you personally, but rather a series of historic falsehoods with a known history of progression. You can beat others over the head by calling it THE church if you want. That's ok, but it's not THE church to all the rest out here. It's one thing to have progressive revelation through dispensations, but quite another when doctrines arise within a system whereby those doctrines oppose by standing in stark contrast to the written, inspired word of the One, true God.

I would hope, then, that we can both agree that the Creator of the universe is always true, and that all men are liars by comparison, as it is written in the Bible inspired by the Most High God. The RCC once stood strongly against such things as homosexuality, which became embraced with a neutral embrace by your Francis. I'm sure he's regretting that now, but that's between him and his Creator. We cannot judge him one way or the other apart from saying that he was and is dead wrong about that and a number of other things that resulted from his liberal leanings that many roman catholics here in the West strongly disagree.

BTW

You have a very bizarre understanding of what the Church is – not to mention, a pretty perverted and revisionist view of history.

Your argument pretty much dies in the first paragraph above with the random dates you’ve plucked out of some highly-debunked anti-Catholic handbook such as “Roman Catholicism” or “The Two Babylons”.

As have already shown – the Catholic Church existed from the FIRST century and was written about by Ignatius of Antioch, who was a disciple of the Apostle John. On his way to Rome to be martyred – he wrote 7 Letters to His various congregations.

In those Letters, he not only mentions the Catholic Church by name – he talks about the belief that the Eucharist is the SAME flesh and blood of Christ who died on the cross and was raised up again, Church hierarchy, Church Authority, Primacy of the Church in Rome, and against the idea of Sola Scriptura.

Constantine had nothing to do with the establishment of the Church, He simply deemed it legal to be a Christian. Up to then, the Church was being hunted and persecuted by his predecessors. His mother, St. Helena who was a Christian, was instrumental in his conversion.

I can go on about all of the other things you got wrong - like Purgatory.
But, that's another post for another day . . .

 

[BeforeThereWas]

You have a very bizarre understanding of what the Church is – not to mention, a pretty perverted and revisionist view of history.

Your argument pretty much dies in the first paragraph above with the random dates you’ve plucked out of some highly-debunked anti-Catholic handbook such as “Roman Catholicism” or “The Two Babylons”.

As have already shown – the Catholic Church existed from the FIRST century and was written about by Ignatius of Antioch, who was a disciple of the Apostle John. On his way to Rome to be martyred – he wrote 7 Letters to His various congregations.

In those Letters, he not only mentions the Catholic Church by name – he talks about the belief that the Eucharist is the SAME flesh and blood of Christ who died on the cross and was raised up again, Church hierarchy, Church Authority, Primacy of the Church in Rome, and against the idea of Sola Scriptura.

Constantine had nothing to do with the establishment of the Church, He simply deemed it legal to be a Christian. Up to then, the Church was being hunted and persecuted by his predecessors. His mother, St. Helena who was a Christian, was instrumental in his conversion.

I can go on about all of the other things you got wrong - like Purgatory.
But, that's another post for another day . . .

Yes, I'm also aware of the trumped up RCC defenses of their beliefs with all the fabricated histories and fables. Appeals to the so-called "church fathers" is also not much of any defense given how influenced they were by Plato, Aristotle and many Gnostics of numerous flavors.

No thanks. You can keep it. The anti-Semitic bent the RCC has always exhibited, along with the Vatican's many hypocrisies when speaking against our southern border walls while leaning on this historicity of their own walls that do indeed guard them against controlled entry...yeah, that's a very hard sell to the millions who know better.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

As stated a number of time, the objections to salvation never lost, here's an overview that supports that belief:

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1. Union with Christ is irreversible​

Believers are united to Christ in such a way that separation is not realistically possible if salvation is truly by His work. Passages for support:

• Romans 8:35–39: Nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. The list is exhaustive—tribulation, death, angels, powers, height, depth—so the implication is permanence of the believer’s standing in Him.
• John 10:27–29: Jesus says His sheep hear His voice, He gives them eternal life, and no one can snatch them out of His hand or the Father’s hand. That language implies security rooted in the power of God, not in fluctuating human effort.

If the believer’s life is sustained in union with Christ by divine power, then salvation is preserved by the same unbreakable union, not by human perseverance by way of attempts at sinning less than what they used to do as an unbeliever. That's nothing but self effort, which never pleases God given that our righteousness is as filthy rags.

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2. Salvation is a gift, not a conditional lease​

• Ephesians 2:8–9 and Romans 6:23: Salvation is presented as a gift of grace through faith, not something maintained by human performance. If salvation were revocable by failure, it would undermine the “gift” language and introduce merit-based salvation and retention of salvation.
• John 5:24: “He who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has eternal life and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.” This is phrased in the present tense: the believer “has” eternal life, with no stated condition of later loss.

Eternal life is presented as a present possession, not merely a potential that must be sustained by works. The language of “has” and “does not come into judgment” argues for a once-for-all transaction.

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3. The Holy Spirit as seal and earnest guarantee​

• Ephesians 1:13–14: Believers are “sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance.” A seal in ancient terms signified ownership and finality; a guarantee (pledge) implies something that cannot be revoked on our part.
• 2 Corinthians 1:22 and 5:5 likewise support the Spirit’s role as a down payment or pledge of the full redemption.

Implication: God has given an internal, divine guarantee of final salvation, rooted in His faithful character, not in fickle human faithfulness.

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4. God’s preserving work​

• Philippians 1:6: “He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion.” The scope is from inception to consummation. God’s initiative and sustaining power are emphasized—salvation is carried through by Him.
• 1 Peter 1:3–5: Believers are “kept” by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed. The Greek uses a present participle indicating ongoing preservation.

If God is actively “keeping” and “completing” the work, then final apostasy is inconsistent with the description of divine preservation.

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5. Christ’s finished work and imputed righteousness​

• Hebrews 10:14: “For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.” The perfection is “forever” in the aorist/eternal sense, coupled with the process of sanctification—implying the basis (Christ’s offering) is permanent.
• 2 Timothy 1:12: Paul says, “I know whom I have believed… He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him.” The trust is placed in Christ’s ability to guard the believer’s faith/possession.

Point: If righteousness and acceptance are imputed and grounded in a once-for-all sacrifice, the believer’s status doesn’t hinge on future merit.

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6. Assurance language addressed to believers​

• 1 John 5:13: “These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.” The purpose is certainty—not a hypothetical “if you continue,” but “you have.” The epistle’s emphasis on assurance presupposes the possibility of knowing one is secure.

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7. The nature of eternal life​

Jesus describes eternal life not merely as long life, but as quality of life that begins at belief (e.g., John 3:16; John 6:47). If it is “eternal,” then by definition it cannot be truncated without making “eternal” conditional in a way that contradicts its normal usage in Scripture.

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Summary of the core “most powerful” pillars:​

1. Irrevocable union with Christ (Rom 8; John 10).
2. Present possession of eternal life (John 5:24; 1 John 5:13).
3. Divine sealing/guarantee by the Spirit (Eph 1:13–14).
4. God’s preserving work to completion (Phil 1:6; 1 Pet 1:3–5).
5. Finished work of Christ and imputed righteousness (Heb 10:14; 2 Tim 1:12).
6. Assurance language given to believers (1 John 5:13).

BTW

 

[Davy]

WARNING BRETHREN IN CHRIST:

Christ's Salvation is NEVER about automatic Salvation by turning away and falling away from Christ. No matter that a believer once confessed belief on Jesus Christ, IF... they later fall away, like to atheism, etc., that means they are NOT WORTHY OF CHRIST, ...

Matt 10:38
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after Me, is not worthy of Me.
KJV

Luke 9:62
62 And Jesus said unto him, "No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."
KJV

Heb 10:38
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
KJV

2 Peter 2:20-21
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
KJV

All the above Scripture is about the FACT... that a believer CAN turn away from Christ, IF... they so choose. It is stupidity and rebelliousness to deny that Biblical FACT.

Thusly, the OSAS doctrine is a doctrine of MEN, and NOT found in God's written Word.


Furthermore, the WORSE TRIAL upon the Christian Church on earth is soon coming when the false-Messiah arrives in Jerusalem and is setup there as GOD, working great signs and wonders showing himself that he is GOD, and over all that is CALLED GOD, or that is worshiped. Thus many brethren today who 'think' they are saved, may yet turn to bow to that false-Messiah who comes first, wrongly thinking he is our Lord Jesus Christ, when it won't be. That is why God's Word shows us that Lord Jesus will come to gather His saints AFTER the tribulation, and not prior to it.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

WARNING BRETHREN IN CHRIST:

Christ's Salvation is NEVER about automatic Salvation by turning away and falling away from Christ. No matter that a believer once confessed belief on Jesus Christ, IF... they later fall away, like to atheism, etc., that means they are NOT WORTHY OF CHRIST, ...

Matt 10:38
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after Me, is not worthy of Me.
KJV

Luke 9:62
62 And Jesus said unto him, "No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."
KJV

Heb 10:38
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
KJV

2 Peter 2:20-21
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
KJV

All the above Scripture is about the FACT... that a believer CAN turn away from Christ, IF... they so choose. It is stupidity and rebelliousness to deny that Biblical FACT.

Thusly, the OSAS doctrine is a doctrine of MEN, and NOT found in God's written Word.


Furthermore, the WORSE TRIAL upon the Christian Church on earth is soon coming when the false-Messiah arrives in Jerusalem and is setup there as GOD, working great signs and wonders showing himself that he is GOD, and over all that is CALLED GOD, or that is worshiped. Thus many brethren today who 'think' they are saved, may yet turn to bow to that false-Messiah who comes first, wrongly thinking he is our Lord Jesus Christ, when it won't be. That is why God's Word shows us that Lord Jesus will come to gather His saints AFTER the tribulation, and not prior to it.

This diatribe is very much like the usual fare we hear from legalists who think that they can retain their salvation by their own efforts, and that there's always danger in believing the word of God where it clearly states that we are SEALED by Holy Spirit, and that the very Spirit of the Father is our earnest unto salvation, which is never withdrawn.

Ahh, but the legalists see that as dangerous, allegedly the pathway to living any measure of sinful passions one so desires. Meanwhile, these same legalists are also sinning every day, thinking that, by asking forgiveness for the ones they know about and remember, they have allegedly vindicated themselves against the contrived withdrawal of salvation from them.

It must be quite a warm fuzzy to think, "I was just good enough today to ensure my salvation is still intact as I lay my wonderful little head down for sleep this night." They seem to have no conscience about all the sins they couldn't remember or were not even aware that they had committed. Some even offer up a general prayer for all the general sins that day, again thinking that they are just good enough.

How pathetic and prideful! Teaching the assurance of salvation leads nobody to live loosely and pleasurably in all the sin they want. I've never known of any such person, and neither have they...even though I'm sure one or two among them will chirp that they know someone who lost their salvation in the past. When pressed about how they know that for sure and proved it, they have no plausible evidence whatsoever to present other than to compare that other person with themselves, as if that had any meaning at all. Of course, they will never admit that they are comparing another against themselves, but that's precisely what it always comes down to since the word of God has no such declaration in relation to the members of the body of Christ under the Gospel of Grace.

Instead, they point at those who were under the Kingdom Gospel in the scriptures, and who were indeed required to persevere unto the end that they MAY be (future tense) saved, never minding the fact that we ARE saved (present tense) by grace through faith, just as Paul declared. The failure to rightly divide the word of truth continues on, just like the dogs returning to their vomit... Nowhere did Jesus nor the eleven declare to Israel that they were sealed by Holy Spirit, nor that Holy Spirit was given in earnest to them. They still had the Law apart from the sacrificial portion. The eleven even bragged in Acts about how many thousands of believing Jews were "zealous for the Law." This too goes ignored by the legalistic faction fixated on the Hellish doctrine of salvation loss.

As an Israeli, I can say from experience how wonderful it is to not be under the Law as some sort of attempt at adding to the absolute sufficiency of the Blood of Christ and to give in to these doctrines of demons and fear for allegedly loosing one's salvation. Far too many people simply don't understand nor want the freedom that's in Christ Jesus.

BTW

 

[nedsk]

The doctrine of Once Saved, Always Saved (OSAS) is one of the most misunderstood and misrepresented teachings in the Christian faith. Critics often claim that it encourages sin, ignores repentance, or contradicts church tradition. Some even call it "Gnostic" or "cheap grace."

But OSAS is not a modern invention, nor is it a license to sin. It is a profound expression of the depth of God’s grace, the security of Christ’s finished work, and the freedom of the believer in the New Covenant.

Let’s take a closer look.


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1. The Biblical Foundation for Eternal Security

The clearest testimony comes from Christ Himself:

> “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.”
— John 10:28



Notice the words: eternal, never, no one. Not even you can snatch yourself from His hand. That’s security, not presumption.

> “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.”
— John 5:24



He has eternal life. Not "might have." Not "as long as he behaves." The transfer from death to life is permanent.

> “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God—not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
— Ephesians 2:8–9



If salvation is not from works, how could it be lost by works?


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2. Is Grace Conditional? Then It’s Not Grace.

If our salvation depends on maintaining obedience, then the Gospel becomes a contract, not a gift.
You’d be back under law: perform or perish.

That’s not Good News.

The Apostle Paul was clear:

> “Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?”
— Galatians 3:3



You didn’t earn it. You can’t keep it by effort. The same God who saved you is the one who keeps you.


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3. But What About Apostasy?

What about those who “fall away”? Scripture gives two answers:

1. They were never truly born again



> “They went out from us, but they were not of us…” (1 John 2:19)
Outward faith can mimic real regeneration. Only God sees the heart.



2. God disciplines His children, not disowns them



> “The Lord disciplines those he loves…” (Hebrews 12:6)
Falling into sin invites correction, not rejection.




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4. OSAS Is Not an Excuse to Sin

True believers don’t want to abuse grace. Why?

> “No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him.”
— 1 John 3:9



A new heart means new desires.
A Christian may stumble, but he no longer walks in the same direction.


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5. Historical and Theological Witnesses

Luther: Salvation by grace alone, through faith alone.

Calvin: The elect will persevere because God preserves them.

The Catholic Church, even with its emphasis on mortal sin, still teaches that God’s mercy is greater than human failure.


The early Church saw salvation as a secure covenant, not a fragile agreement.


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6. Without OSAS, God Becomes a Tyrant

Let’s be honest: If God saves you, but lets go of you the moment you mess up, that’s not a loving Father—that’s a judge with a short fuse.

If salvation can be lost, we live in fear, not faith.

> “There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear…”
— 1 John 4:18



OSAS doesn’t make God weak. It shows He is strong enough to carry us, even when we fall.


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7. The Cross Is Enough

Jesus doesn’t need to die again every time you sin. He died once for all.

> “For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.”
— Hebrews 10:14



Your justification is not in progress. It is finished.


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Conclusion

Without OSAS, the Gospel becomes fear-based religion.
With OSAS, it becomes what it was always meant to be: Good News.

God is not calling you to walk a tightrope. He is calling you to trust in a finished work.

Once saved, always saved – not because we hold on to God, but because He holds on to us.

> “If we are faithless, He remains faithful – for He cannot deny Himself.”
— 2 Timothy 2:13

Lets start with this

The clearest testimony comes from Christ Himself:

> “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.”
— John 10:28

You describe that as the "clearest" testimony osas. Fantastic. We dont need to go any furhter. If you persevere to the end you will have eternal life and it will never be taken from you. Absolutely true.

As to no one will snatch them from my hand, where does that mean people cant walk away? And if they cant walk away is God holding them hostage? Does God take away free will.? And while you folks really dont like talking about it IF salvation cannot be lost and if I am still a free agent then I can do whatever I like and still be saved. Its rather lazy intellectually to try and have it both ways. And to claim people that walk away from God were never "really" saved in the first place is not biblical and is just a theological version of ...nah uh.