WHAT IS THE WATER IN JOHN 3:5?

[Fred J]

I have read yours. It's basically SOP of pulpit teachings.

Liar, for i did not use any teaching of those of the pulpits, but rather according to 2 Timothy 3: 16&17.

You're 'shortsighted' and 'blunt' in your 'folly' testament, and there's proof based on my given counter testament.

i let true believers to be a judge of that, but between you and me we have nothing in common.

Yet you're like a relentless desperado pursuing after me in vain, when i don't welcome your 'unlearned' and 'twisted' version.

First of all, to the full context of the scriptures and sound doctrine in the New Testament, it doesn't matter according to John 3:3, whether translation is 'born again' or 'born from above'.

If it matters to you, go and sell it to others, since am not at all interested, and am repeatedly telling you.

And your testimony about Nicodemus being blessed by Jesus in John chapter 3, i disagreed.

Nicodemus was not blessed that day but rather even more confused by what Jesus left him with, to ponder and reckon with.

Nicodemus as a Pharisee did not follow Jesus after that, but rather continued with the council of Sanhedrin.

Since he's also afraid of being 'thrown out' of the council etc. for following Jesus, and scripture quotes these as, 'men pleasers more than GOD pleasers'.

Next He's only seen at Jesus' burial with Joseph of Arimathaea, and after that to the book of Acts, his name is not mentioned again.

All through from the beginning to end, Jesus had disciples and followers with Him, and Nicodemus is not one of them.

But his role during the burial of Jesus and contribution, does it add plus point of acceptance, am not sure, only GOD decides.

Move on, no thank you.

 

[JohnDB]

Liar, for i did not use any teaching of those of the pulpits, but rather according to 2 Timothy 3: 16&17.

You're 'shortsighted' and 'blunt' in your 'folly' testament, and there's proof based on my given counter testament.

i let true believers to be a judge of that, but between you and me we have nothing in common.

Yet you're like a relentless desperado pursuing after me in vain, when i don't welcome your 'unlearned' and 'twisted' version.

First of all, to the full context of the scriptures and sound doctrine in the New Testament, it doesn't matter according to John 3:3, whether translation is 'born again' or 'born from above'.

If it matters to you, go and sell it to others, since am not at all interested, and am repeatedly telling you.

And your testimony about Nicodemus being blessed by Jesus in John chapter 3, i disagreed.

Nicodemus was not blessed that day but rather even more confused by what Jesus left him with, to ponder and reckon with.

Nicodemus as a Pharisee did not follow Jesus after that, but rather continued with the council of Sanhedrin.

Since he's also afraid of being 'thrown out' of the council etc. for following Jesus, and scripture quotes these as, 'men pleasers more than GOD pleasers'.

Next He's only seen at Jesus' burial with Joseph of Arimathaea, and after that to the book of Acts, his name is not mentioned again.

All through from the beginning to end, Jesus had disciples and followers with Him, and Nicodemus is not one of them.

But his role during the burial of Jesus and contribution, does it add plus point of acceptance, am not sure, only GOD decides.

Move on, no thank you.

Ummmm..

Hate to prove you wrong but I have heard exactly the same sermon before.

Try again....

 

[Gary Mac]

Children lets try and use a little maturity and be ye therefore perfect, or mature as some translate it, even as your Father in heaven is perfect, mature. . Matt 5;48.

 

[rockytopva]

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. - John 3:5

I always thought...

Water - Water Baptism
Holy Spirit - Spirit infilling

 

[Gary Mac]

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. - John 3:5

I always thought...

Water - Water Baptism
Holy Spirit - Spirit infilling

There are two baptisms. One is by mans rituals in water signifying cleansing of the flesh man. The other is by God Himself come to you and open in you His Spirit of mind and who He is in you. look at Ada, He came to Adam by His Spirit and opens up His knowledge and Adam became like Him to know this difference, Gen 3:22, Same ASPirit came to Abraham and did the same Same in ones same Spirit in Mary, same Spirit in Jesus in Matt 3:16, same Spirit in 120 in an upper room, and the very same Spirit in us all today who will let Him in for He is at your door knocking this day and any man who will let Him in He will come to you, and sup with you and be in you. Rev 3:20. Jesus explains this baptism in Luke 17:20-21, the kingdom of God doesnt come with observation, it is with you. Water doesnt do anything except get you wet. Gods Spirit opens is all for who He is and all of His heaven in you. Matt 3:16.

 

[TLHKAJ]

This is John 3:5 NASB
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless * one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot * enter into the kingdom of God.


Some believe water to be:
The word of God
Baptismal water
Natural birth

There might be other understandings that are not listed.

I tend to go with either natural birth or baptismal water.
Either can seem correct to me.

Please state what you believe and why.
Appreciated...

I believe it is the water breaking at birth...so, natural birth. And I believe that bc there are examples of people in scripture who never got the chance to be water baptized and yet received salvation. There is of course, the thief on the cross. He made his confession/profession while on his cross and Jesus declared to him, "this day shall you be with me in paradise."

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe it is the water breaking at birth...so, natural birth. And I believe that bc there are examples of people in scripture who never got the chance to be water baptized and yet received salvation. There is of course, the thief on the cross. He made his confession/profession while on his cross and Jesus declared to him, "this day shall you be with me in paradise."

Great point !

 

[Fred J]

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. - John 3:5

I always thought...

Water - Water Baptism
Holy Spirit - Spirit infilling

It was as simple as that even a child of GOD in the Kingdom could perceive, since Christ was also baptized in water and till to the book of Acts 'water baptism' was.

But now there's a controversy doctrine that, 'water' refers to the 'water in the bag birth' from the mother's womb.

Since the next verse reads, what is born of the flesh is flesh and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Well that's not the case, it only explains, in the past what is born of the human flesh is flesh, and now what is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jesus also born of a human flesh and flesh, but at 30 years of age He was born of water baptism and of the Holy Ghost.

In order to peruse His spirit man quest for the Kingdom of GOD and for the salvation of man, nor longer of the flesh bond to Joseph and Mary.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

 

[Fred J]

I believe it is the water breaking at birth...so, natural birth. And I believe that bc there are examples of people in scripture who never got the chance to be water baptized and yet received salvation. There is of course, the thief on the cross. He made his confession/profession while on his cross and Jesus declared to him, "this day shall you be with me in paradise."

Very strong point there, even happened to have me taken back for a moment to ponder the possibility.

Well that's not the case, now about the thief's death and not been baptized, and is in paradise, is true.

But on the other hand, there are those living who are baptized, also they're being baptized for the dead.

There are probably others who believed besides the thief and died without being water baptized, even the 'patriarchs of Israel'.

1 Corinthians 15:
29. Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
30. And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?

Please do not be beguiled and fall for the doctrine of heretics, thank you

Shalom in the name of Lord Jesus Christ

 

[Gary Mac]

I believe it is the water breaking at birth...so, natural birth. And I believe that bc there are examples of people in scripture who never got the chance to be water baptized and yet received salvation. There is of course, the thief on the cross. He made his confession/profession while on his cross and Jesus declared to him, "this day shall you be with me in paradise."

In spiritual terms, water is for cleansing the mortal body, Washing feet if you will.
In actualities for Spirit, it is a renewing of the mind, cleansing it from all unrighteousness, sin, iniquities, to directing the mortal body to clean decisions, holiness. Jesus said if you cant believe what I say, believe that what I do. That water cleansing is only a metaphor for making the mind clean. In making the mind clean, it directs to the body how to react to it.

What the outer man does is either clean and good, or hatred and evil, and are the results from the mind, or Spirit that one is of.

One has to ask, is your mortal body clean, holy, pure, and without sin as the Spirit of God who is Love would have it? If not, then all that you have is a shower with water and a bar of soap to keep you from smelling and look nice noble toward other men on the outside only.

Many sit in a pew for an hour one day a week, all dressed up and washed with water and shiny to look noble toward others, but on the inside are self centered, biased to their own beliefs, and cater to their own selfish needs instead of giving over themselves, laying down their own lives to help the one who is in need.

That is what cleansing is all about, from the inner man in holiness to the outer man in holiness.

 

[Behold]

but at 30 years of age He was born of water baptism and of the Holy Ghost.

The verse does not say that Jesus was "born of water" when He was baptized by John.

It said that John Baptized Him.
That's it.

The reality is........ Jesus was not "born again"...... as He was not a sinner needing it.
He was water baptized to "fulfill all the law".......not for his Sins, as He was SINLESS when He was water baptized.

 

[Gary Mac]

The verse does not say that Jesus was "born of water" when He was baptized by John.

It said that John Baptized Him.
That's it.

The reality is........ Jesus was not "born again"...... as He was not a sinner needing it.
He was water baptized to "fulfill all the law".......not for his Sins, as He was SINLESS when He was water baptized.

Are you saying that Matt 3:16 is incorrect and God did not come to Jesus by the Spirit He is and renew his mind by opening up in Jesus who He is and all of His heaven in Jesus? And Jesus mind was not renewed to a knowledge that he did not have prior that Matt 3:16 said he did?

And Jesus was not sinless before God opened his mind to His ways, he was of the laws for sin and truth Tham even from a young age, and he became sin because of those laws and was crucified because of this laws for sin that he once was of as rabbi of them.

The very laws for sin that he taught for Jewish law are the very laws that had him crucified for blashemey against those laws for sin. He became sin by the things that he suffered from them.

Jesus was freed from those laws that he once was of by God Himself open up in Him His truths instead of mans ideas, laws, to govern a belief for sin that Jesus was once of. Jesus sinned against his own parents when he disobeyed and was left behind for the trip for the passover. He was about his Fathers business just as all rabbi's, preaches of their laws do.

After Matt 3;16 when God renewed his mind Jesus said you must have that same renewing of mind that he received from God Himself, born again with that same renewing. If you have not met God as Jesus did, then you are not born again of God at all and under these laws that you just stated to regulate your own beliefs for it.

 

[nedsk]

The verse does not say that Jesus was "born of water" when He was baptized by John.

It said that John Baptized Him.
That's it.

The reality is........ Jesus was not "born again"...... as He was not a sinner needing it.
He was water baptized to "fulfill all the law".......not for his Sins, as He was SINLESS when He was water baptized.

I thought the law was useless?

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe it is the water breaking at birth...so, natural birth. And I believe that bc there are examples of people in scripture who never got the chance to be water baptized and yet received salvation. There is of course, the thief on the cross. He made his confession/profession while on his cross and Jesus declared to him, "this day shall you be with me in paradise."

Still mulling this over.
@rockytopva and @Gary Mac have made some good points.

One of the dillemas I have is the wording.
YOU MUST BE BORN OF WATER AND THE SPIRIT

So don't we get the spirit at baptism?
Wouldn't it be like saying: BORN OF THE SPIRIT AND THE SPIRIT ???

There's a difference between "getting" the sprit and the "indwelling" of the spirit...
which I won't get into here.

But the two members I mentioned do reconcile the problem (for me)....

Water baptism....forgiving of sins
Holy Spirit baptism....indwelling of the Spirit

John's baptism vs Jesus' baptism
(one comes after me who will baptize with fire)....

What do you think?

 

[Behold]

Are you saying that Matt 3:16 is incorrect and God did not come to Jesus by the Spirit

The reason that a person is water baptized is because a sinner has received Salvation, and then they are to be water baptized, as this is symbolic, of a sinner being "risen with Christ ".

So, Jesus was not a Sinner.
He's the sinless the Son of God, who was water baptized NOT as a sinner.
Jesus was only fullfilling the Law......as this was required on our behalf so that His Sacrifice would be accepted by God.
Even John thought it was ludicrous and told Jesus that He needed to be baptized by Jesus.
Read the verse.

And the Holy Spirit descended UPON Jesus.......not Inside Him.
Read the verse.
So, this means that this was an empowering of the Holy Spirit, that begain Jesus's ministry.
Its the same that came to Peter in Acts 2, ... its an ANOINTING for Ministry......as Peter had already received the Holy Spirit, before Pentecost.
Read John 20:22.
So, Jesus was receiving the anointing for Ministry, he was not being born again, as He was not a sinner needing Salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

Very strong point there, even happened to have me taken back for a moment to ponder the possibility.

Well that's not the case, now about the thief's death and not been baptized, and is in paradise, is true.

But on the other hand, there are those living who are baptized, also they're being baptized for the dead.

There are probably others who believed besides the thief and died without being water baptized, even the 'patriarchs of Israel'.

1 Corinthians 15:
29. Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
30. And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?

Please do not be beguiled and fall for the doctrine of heretics, thank you

Shalom in the name of Lord Jesus Christ

It might be heretical Fred.
But many theologians DO accept the water as signifying physical birth.
I understand that some doctrine is heretical...
not sure this would be one of them.
More a misundertanding?

 

[GodsGrace]

The reason that a person is water baptized is because a sinner has received Salvation, and then they are to be water baptized, as this is symbolic, of a sinner being "risen with Christ ".

So, Jesus was not a Sinner.
He's the sinless the Son of God, who was water baptized NOT as a sinner.
Jesus was only fullfilling the Law......as this was required on our behalf so that His Sacrifice would be accepted by God.
Even John thought it was ludicrous and told Jesus that He needed to be baptized by Jesus.
Read the verse.

And the Holy Spirit descended UPON Jesus.......not Inside Him.
Read the verse.
So, this means that this was an empowering of the Holy Spirit, that begain Jesus's ministry.
Its the same that came to Peter in Acts 2, ... its an ANOINTING for Ministry......as Peter had already received the Holy Spirit, before Pentecost.
Read John 20:22.
So, Jesus was receiving the anointing for Ministry, he was not be born again, as He was not sinner needed Salvation.

100% Correct !
Jesus was God from the beginning.

If we say He was a sinner, or needed ANYTHING we need...
then we're saying that GOD is a sinner and is in need of something that man requires....
like baptism for instance.
God does NOT need to be baptized - for ANY reason.
(as a symbol or for forgiveness of sin).

 

[nedsk]

The reason that a person is water baptized is because a sinner has received Salvation, and then they are to be water baptized, as this is symbolic, of a sinner being "risen with Christ ".

So, Jesus was not a Sinner.
He's the sinless the Son of God, who was water baptized NOT as a sinner.
Jesus was only fullfilling the Law......as this was required on our behalf so that His Sacrifice would be accepted by God.
Even John thought it was ludicrous and told Jesus that He needed to be baptized by Jesus.
Read the verse.

And the Holy Spirit descended UPON Jesus.......not Inside Him.
Read the verse.
So, this means that this was an empowering of the Holy Spirit, that begain Jesus's ministry.
Its the same that came to Peter in Acts 2, ... its an ANOINTING for Ministry......as Peter had already received the Holy Spirit, before Pentecost.
Read John 20:22.
So, Jesus was receiving the anointing for Ministry, he was not be born again, as He was not a sinner needed Salvation.

If a sinner has received salvation (past tense) then why do they need water baptism? If it doesn't confer any blessing or cleansing then it's just a meaningless act.

 

[GodsGrace]

Liar, for i did not use any teaching of those of the pulpits, but rather according to 2 Timothy 3: 16&17.

You're 'shortsighted' and 'blunt' in your 'folly' testament, and there's proof based on my given counter testament.

i let true believers to be a judge of that, but between you and me we have nothing in common.

Yet you're like a relentless desperado pursuing after me in vain, when i don't welcome your 'unlearned' and 'twisted' version.

First of all, to the full context of the scriptures and sound doctrine in the New Testament, it doesn't matter according to John 3:3, whether translation is 'born again' or 'born from above'.

If it matters to you, go and sell it to others, since am not at all interested, and am repeatedly telling you.

And your testimony about Nicodemus being blessed by Jesus in John chapter 3, i disagreed.

Nicodemus was not blessed that day but rather even more confused by what Jesus left him with, to ponder and reckon with.

Nicodemus as a Pharisee did not follow Jesus after that, but rather continued with the council of Sanhedrin.

Since he's also afraid of being 'thrown out' of the council etc. for following Jesus, and scripture quotes these as, 'men pleasers more than GOD pleasers'.

Next He's only seen at Jesus' burial with Joseph of Arimathaea, and after that to the book of Acts, his name is not mentioned again.

All through from the beginning to end, Jesus had disciples and followers with Him, and Nicodemus is not one of them.

But his role during the burial of Jesus and contribution, does it add plus point of acceptance, am not sure, only GOD decides.

Move on, no thank you.

Fred,,,
On threads that I begin,,,,I ask that members treat each other with respect...
as anyone should do - especially we Christians.

Not nice to call someone that does not agree with you a liar,,,shortsighted, blunt, etc.

Please refrain from doing this and stick to the topic,
which I really do have a problem with.

Thanks!

 

[nedsk]

This from Tertullian notice the year, 203AD

“Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism—which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and.asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes—by taking them away from the water!” (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).

I'm especially fond of

But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and.asps


Way back then there were already people already going afoul of the truth