That's hilarious....
That is a "whole cloth" concept. Meaning not in the tapestry of Judeo Christianity.
WHAT IS THE WATER IN JOHN 3:5?
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That is a "whole cloth" concept. Meaning not in the tapestry of Judeo Christianity.
Thanks LoveYeshua.
I do believe I've graduated from believing it's physical birth.
So right now, yes, baptism and spiritual baptism seem to be the best answers.
I really appreciate that you thought this over.
Some on this thread have stated this too...and did post John 4 about the living water.
I do very much like the idea of John stating that one will come after him and baptize with fire and the Holy Spirit.
And THAT is how one is born again....receiving the Holy Spirit.
Here is the Covenant as defined By GOD and Jesus upheld and was teaching;
In the Old Testament, God defined His covenant as His law, especially the Ten Commandments, given to Israel after He freed them from Egypt. At Mount Sinai He said, “Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people” (Exodus 19:5–6 NKJV). God made it plain that the covenant was the Ten Commandments when He “wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments” (Exodus 34:28 NKJV) and again, “So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments” (Deuteronomy 4:13 NKJV). This covenant was an agreement: God promised to be their God, bless and protect them, if they obeyed His voice and kept His law. Jesus in the New Testament did not replace this covenant with something different; instead, He confirmed it, magnified it, and showed that love to God and neighbor is the foundation of all the commandments (Matthew 22:37–40 NKJV). In both the Old and New Testaments, God’s covenant is about obedience from a willing heart, leading to life and blessing.
Now do you know the difference between the Old covenant and the New Covenant?
this discussion does not address the O.P. so if you want to know more PM me.
Correct.
If one studies the Covenants, they find that no covenant abolished the previous one....not even the NC which retained some of the requirements....The writer of Hebrews is stating how different the Old is from the New -- abolished in that sense.
Each one made the previous one better, or changed it in some way.
This goes all the way back to the Edenic.
But that's another topic...
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These two books, The Shepherd of Hermas and The Epistle of Barnabas, spell out in detail the entire New Age scenario, including commands to do the things God specifically forbids, such as:
1. Take 'the name' of the beast.
2. Give 'up to the beast'.
3. Form a one world government.
4. Kill those not receiving his 'name'.
5 Worship female virgins.
6. Receive 'another spirit'.
7. Seek power.
8. Believe that God is immanent in his creation, as a pantheistic, monistic Hindu god.
9. Avoid marriage; permit fornication.
10. Abstain from fasting.
11. Subscribe to the New Age Root Race Theory.
12. Be saved by being baptized and keeping the 'twelve' mandates of the Antichrist.
And all the sheeple said, "Yes massa, yes massa."
The "early church fathers" are dead. Jesus, the Word, is alive (John 1:14). Choose wisely.
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. (Proverbs 3:5-6)
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. (John 17:17)
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These two "Christian" writings, Apocryphal books deleted from the bible during the 4th century, are from the very manuscripts now being used to "correct," as Luciferians say, the New Testament and create new versions. These manuscript types (Aleph, B, D, papyrus 75, 45 et al.) were rejected by a growing and discerning Christian body - almost immediately after their creation by the 'friends of Philo'.
These two books, The Shepherd of Hermas and The Epistle of Barnabas, spell out in detail the entire New Age scenario, including commands to do the things God specifically forbids, such as:
1. Take 'the name' of the beast.
2. Give 'up to the beast'.
3. Form a one world government.
4. Kill those not receiving his 'name'.
5 Worship female virgins.
6. Receive 'another spirit'.
7. Seek power.
8. Believe that God is immanent in his creation, as a pantheistic, monistic Hindu god.
9. Avoid marriage; permit fornication.
10. Abstain from fasting.
11. Subscribe to the New Age Root Race Theory.
12. Be saved by being baptized and keeping the 'twelve' mandates of the Antichrist.
...the same "Saint" Ignatius, who also said, "Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop...It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.” – Letter to the Smyrnaeans Chapter 8
And all the sheeple said, "Yes massa, yes massa."
Again, such traditions of men, with their long abandoned and recently revived corrupt manuscripts, bring death.
The "early church fathers" are dead. Jesus, the Word, is alive (John 1:14). Choose wisely.
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. (Proverbs 3:5-6)
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. (John 17:17)
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soberxp
Well-Known Member
I just want to use a sense of humor to express God's wisdom, I was deeply shocked by God's wisdom, God expresses his wisdom and thoughts in every detail. It is often said that details determine success or failure. I think God's skill in dealing with detail is awesome.
Gary Mac
Member
But we who are of that new covenant that is not law but is Spirit and who we actually become, the old law for how to is fulfilled in us, it is who we become not what we try and be by law. Trying to follow the law will result in miserable failure every time, but when it actually becomes who we are without trying but actually being, we are made perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect.
You are hanging onto the old temple of law, and as long as you do that new temple of Spirit cannot be built.
God made it plain that He will destroy that old temple, only if you will let Him for He is at your door knocking this day waiting on you to open to His new kingdom that we become the very place God resides in it. Jesus was every clear where this new heaven and earth resides in Luke 17:20-21, it doesnt come with observation, it is with you, or is supposed to be , but obviously you rather deny that new covenant in favor of the old one where law is your god instead of the god of it be who you are instead.
The covenant is an agrreement that if you repent form your own ways for law and receive from God Himself His same life as your own, then He will come to you and sup with you and be in you, for He really is knocking at your door this very day Rev 3:20 wanting to give you0 His new covenant of Spirit that is not law.
Why you reject His convent be in you is you want control over Him. For in Him you will have to give up that right to yourself in your doctrine for a new covenant that is only laws to be broken. But if you will receive from God His new covenant you will be perfected even as your Father in heaven is perfect, Matt 5:48, and when, or should I say IF you ever see Him as He is, ye shall be like Him 1 John 3;2, instead of laws written on stone or in ink instead of in your heart to actually be them and who you will become only IF you give up that right to your own beliefs according to laws and become like Him to know this difference. Even Adam learned this difference when the new covenant was open in him proven in Gen 3:22.
All you are doing is denying the new covenant that only God Himself can open in you. Jesus called that renewing of his mind that he received that new covenant in Matt 3:16 as born again. The old things passed away for him and all things became new just as it does in us all who receives the very same from the very same.
Your understanding is very elementary excluding the only One who can fulfill those laws in you. You wade in the comforts of the shallows of a very deep ocean that you are afraid to explore.
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We're not going to understand the scripture differently, since there'll only cause divisions and groups, that have resulted to 'denominations'.
The scripture 'as it is written' is very clear, that when Peter and John 'prayed', the people did not receive the Holy Ghost.
But after water baptizing them and then when Peter and John 'laid their hands' on them, they received the Holy Ghost.
First Peter and John 'prayed', it did not work, but after they water baptized the people and 'laid their hands' on them, it worked.
Even today, no need to pray for believers to receive the Holy Ghost, but rather 'elders' after water baptizing them, 'lay their hands' on them to receive the Holy Ghost.
Shalom in the name of Adonai Yeshua.
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Gary Mac
Member
What about Adam Who received the Holy Ghost to know the different from carnality from religion and Spirit and became like God who is that Spirit in Gen 3:22? And Abraham, He received Gods Holy Ghost, Moses, received, Mary received. They were not baptized in water. What about the thief on the cross, he received and when was he baptized in water? And I myself received Gods Holy Spirit within me and open in me His knowledge for who He is and all of His heaven just as He did in all off these, a couple of years before I was dunked in a tank of water. Water doesnt do anything but get you wet.
If you claim to have received the Holy Ghost, your spirit in you in communion with HIS won't proclaim, Jesus did not come in the flesh.
That's the spirit of anti-Christ which confesses such 'lies', read the given scripture to you.
Mistakes can be made, come out of it, rather than justifying further in other things and not related.
Thank you
Gary Mac
Member
I see so Jesus was not made of a woman born under the law as all men are, son of man? If Jesus was not a man, then what was it they crucified for blaspheme? And if he wasnt a man, how did he plead, tortured, ate supper, drank wine.
WOW. What was Jesus if he wasn't son of man. An dont tell me son of God for all of Gods children are sons of God. But obviously you cant relate to the same in yourself?
Yes just as Jesus was liar for saying who he was in the father by the same as you do me for the very same reason.
You are exactly like those who had Jesus crucified for saying who he was in God Here is what he said that has you so upset as it did the Jews of Jesus day.
Read it and dont tell me how wrong Jesus was, tell hi8m how wrong he was for not being a man as you falsely accuse him of and falsely accuse him of being God just as the jews did when Jesus was very clear in who he said he was in God below, Read it and the as the jews and tell him hie is a blasphemer. .
John 12:49: For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 12:44-45. who believes in me, does not believe in me but in Him who sent me. He who sees me sees Him who sent me.
John 7:16. Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
John 5 :17 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John 5:19. “Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.”
John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
John 17:2-21, the kingdom of God doesnt come withj observation, it is withn you
John 16:23. And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
John 14:16. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for eve 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Matt 11:25. At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one.
That is a gross understatement, the gross mistake is most do not follow the ways of Jesus in the Father and you are very clear in that respect. Yo cant relate to at all if you dont have the same spirit in you who was in Jesus, which would be Christ in you.
You are assuming yourself to be in a certain condition that you never have been in, with the same God Jesus was of.
That's your 'shortsighted' view or parroting someone else's likewise 'shortsighted' view.
For these people you mentioned above did not get to do their water baptism because they 'died'.
Therefore the living and remain on earth who take water baptism, they are also taking it for the dead who were unable.
1 Corinthians 15:
29. Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not al all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
Again that's according to you being 'shortsighted' in the all scripture and sound doctrine of the Holy Bible.
1 Peter 3:
21. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward GOD,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Colossians 2:
12. Buried with Him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with Him through the faith of the operation of GOD, who hath raised Him from the dead.
In faith to the Word of GOD, even water baptism does also save us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Yes, you're 'partially' right since being 'shortsighted', it doesn't do anything but only get us wet, when is taken in lack of knowledge and faith.
Since meaninglessly every one are taking water baptism, let's follow the crowd and take it for nothing, i get it.
But to those who are disciple in the full knowledge of the scripture and are 'longsighted', in faith we take water baptism in the answer of a good conscience towards GOD.
We're buried with Christ in water baptism and we're also risen with Him through the faith of the operation of GOD.
Glory be only to GOD the FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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Many writings were not included in the New Testament.
The number one reason for including a letter was that it had to be an eye witness or the next line down.
Another reason was for space.
Did you know that the Didache almost also made it into the NT.
Because a written document is not included in the NT does not mean is it irrelevant.
Seems to me that we sure do learn from professors, pastors, teachers, nowadays that have heretical teachings...
and yet those that do not accept early documents have no problem accepting doctrine developed 1500 years after Jesus' ascension.
And what books were deleted in the 4th century?
Do we not have the original NT?
Ignatius was taught by John.
Maybe you don't trust John either.
He wrote on his way to Rome to be martyred.
I wonder if these modern day heretics would be willing to be martyred for their heretical beliefs?
And, I think Ignatius might have had a good point.
Looks like we're all little Bishops here.
This has gotten us many different denominations from which to choose the TYPE of Christianity we wish to adhere to.
Yes. So many truths.
I thought there was only ONE TRUTH?
I don't know what you believe,,,but it seems to me that modern day heresies bring death.
OSAS would be one of them, for instance.
No such think either in the NT or in the early church.
§"they word is truth"
But WHICH word doctrox??
Seems like we have more than one.
The early church fathers defended the faith you think you're defending now. You're defending the word of Luther not the word of God
Behold
Well-Known Member
The early church fathers, were mostly heretics.
Most of them believed that "water washes your sin away" and it doesn't.
So, if a "church father" does not even understand that water is just water, and can't deal with sin, then none of their subsequent theology can be trusted, as if a person can't even understand Jesus's sacrifice as the only WAY that our sin is forgiven, then they are not to be trusted or followed, as they are theologically heretical.
Which SUBSEQUENT THEOLOGY?
They were taught by the Apostles...
Which heretic were You taught by?
Gary Mac
Member
Short sided and someone else's view? I guess your bible doesnt contain Gen 3;22? Or if it does and you say it is short sighted perhaps who ever wrote it was short sighted?
Every man who ever lived dies, and you will not be excluded from the same not even Jesus was excluded from death.
The dead in Christ are those who has not received from God His anointing, which would be Christ in you. He raises you from that dead state of religion that obviously you are of and refuse to come to life in Gods Holy Spirit as Adam did, Abraham did, as Moses did, Mary did, Jesus did in Matt 3:16from God Himself, as 120 did and as all today has who has Benn born again with that same renewing of mind that started in Adam, All of these we read of who God came to by the Spirit that He is came to life in Him, raising from the dead state of religions of mans ideas for a god just as you have about a god and reject coming out from that grave you are in and alive in Him.
You dont have a clue what any of Gods ways is about that his very obvious. And Jesus was very clear in Luke 17:20-21 the kingdom of GHod doesnt come with observation, it doesnt come as a man coming to life who has been dead for 2000 years, it is within you or is supposed to be but as long as you reject that new life, born again, you never will see the kingdom of God and go to the grave without it which is that second death and never see that first one where you die to your own religion ideas for a god just as Jesus did proven in Matt 3:16.
I do not follow Paul in his doctrine, I follow Jesus in his. They are not the same doctrine.
Only to you who never has met God yourself. You are exactly as the Jews were with Jesus, He was short sighted as well as you accuse me of.
I do not follow Peters doctrine I follow Jesus doctrine, as in -- John 16:23. And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
You act as if I need Peter or Paul to give me Gods ways LOL. And you call me short sighted?
You should try following Jesu in who he said he was in GHod instead of what others said about hi from their own perspectives such as you are doing. Try quoting Jesus sometimes in who he was in God instead of others opinions about him.
Water does not save anyone, Gods salvation come only by God Hiself come to you and open in you who he is and all of his heaven in you. And when, or should I say IF, when you see Him as He is ye shall be like Him 1 John 3:2, instead of like Paul or Peter that you are like instead of like the God who resides in man as Jesus said in Luke 17:20-21.
Partially right? Half a lie is still a lie. And obviously God who baptizes man by the spirit He is and a renewing of mind to think in His terms instead of mans terms for water, Jesus called born again by that same renewing that he received from God in Matt 3:16 that you call him short sighted even tough you read who Jesus said he was in God .
Follow the crowd right into hell instead of Gods kingdom that we are? No way my friend, you follow the crowd and I will follow the one God sent to lead me to the same God who sent him to do exactly that.
You follow that crowd and I will follow the one God sent to show me the way to his Father.
And few who find His ways, very few! They like the doctrines, opinions, of a crowd instead.
And we who follow Jesus to the Father and when we see Him as He really is we are like Him. 1 John 3:2.
My old man of flesh, carnal, that was sinful, was buried never to be remembered anymore and came to life in Giods Spirit of mind to be His righteous, holy, pure and without sin. cannot sin because that old man in carnality as yourself has dies and that new man of Gods anointing, Christ, has risen from that grave, that dead state of God Spirit that you are living in this day. So obvious in your rebuttal of Jesus to receive in you the same renting of mind from God Himself that Jesus received in Matt 3:16 and said ye must be born again of it.
And all who has His glory as our own disposition of mind, His deity is who we become like Him and in His same image of. It is who we are not what you believe you are as you do, and excluding yourself from the same Spirit be in you who was in Christ Jesus.
And you call me and Jesus short sighted for having from God ourselves?
Gary Mac
Member
SO very true. If water can save you then everyone who takes a shower or a bath is saved. Just jump in and cleanse the body.
The real truth is in Jesus when he said in Luke 17:20-21, the kingdom of God doesnt come with observation, it is with you. The only reason water baptisms is a ritual performed by man is that a can control people and if they can get them to believe him in these rituals he can use them for enterprise. And most even pay that preacher to hear God for them, just as this of Moses day said in Exodus 20:19 KJV: And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
And Jesus was very clear in John 16:23. And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
But these need a preacher to hear God for them instead of God Himself give it them to be perfect even as your Father In heaven is perfect. Matt 5:48 That isnt even a consideration for these.
Behold
Well-Known Member
What fake "subsequent" theology did the Mary Cult "church fathers" , make up, that is not found in any bible, and therefore was not given to them by any Apostle's Letters.
All These.. and many more but this will do for now.
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1.. Sacried Tradition
The Catholic Church views their own Sacred Tradition as their most important source of revelation, meaning that a good majority of Catholic teachings are not found in any verse in any Bible. This contrasts with most Protestant denominations that emphasize sola scriptura(Scripture alone).
2.) . Purgatory
The concept of Purgatory, a state of purification after death for those who die in God's grace but still need cleansing, is not found in the Bible. The MaryCult also prays for souls in purgatory, which again is not found in any verse in any Bible.
3.) Mary's Assumption and Immaculate Conception:
These are Mary Cult doctrines that developed over time and are not found in any verse in any Bible. The Assumption refers to Mary's bodily ascension into heaven, (in her dead body, she flew there).....while the Immaculate Conception refers to Mary being conceived without original sin, which is another MaryCult false doctrine that is not found in any verse in any Bible.
4.). Transubstantiation:
This doctrine, central to the man made MaryCult theology regarding the ""Eucharist"", states that the bread and wine offered in the Mass are transformed into the literal body and blood of Christ. This specific explanation of transubstantiation is not found in any Bible verse in any Bible.
5.) The Authority of the Pope:
The Catholic Church believes and teaches that the Pope, as the successor of Saint Peter, has a unique authority as the head of the Church, a role not found in the Bible, in any verse, in any bible. The MarCult in fact beleive and teach that He is the mouthpiece of God, Himself. This is not found in any verse in any Bible.
6.) . Other FALSE Practices and Teachings:
Other False MaryCult practices not found in any verse in any Bible include..
Infant Baptism for Salvation
Veneration of Saints
Removing and collecting Dead Body Parts ( RELICS)
Praying the Rosary
The use of Holy Water
Feast days for Mary
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Get on track Behold.
The Apostolic Fathers and the ECFs were GREAT...
it's those that came after them that messed up.
You should read them sometime.
I didn't think it was important either,,,but it made me understand a lot of what is in the NT.
Tradition is second, but whatever you want to believe.
As to sola scriptura...you think that works?
How come you and I can't agree after years of debate?
Looks to me like it don't work too good....
It just doesn't function...
Too many little popes running around.
Maybe we need a Protestant Pope?
And Magisterium.
I know a priest that teaches theology and speaks about 7 languages and he also does not see purgatory in the NT.
Another priest (yeah, I know a few priests) told me God loves us so He gave us purgatory.
Take your pick.
I agree.
Problem with the assumption...
but so were Enoch and Elijah.
You don't have a problem with them being taken up without dying?
The IC I agree with.
Perfect Jesus in a perfect body.
The Apostolic Fathers and the ECFs believed it's Jesus' body.
Check out John 6:53.
Check out the Greek meaning of EAT in that one verse.
Interesting.
The NT does teach a hierarchy.
At the top were 5 Popes.
Then 1.
Does he have authority?
I guess.
But this last one sure had many Bishops and Priests mad at home.
They publicaly denounced some of his WRITINGS and would not follow his "rules".
Long story...
No problem here.
Anyway, it's wasted breath with you and it would take too long.
I'll just say that it was OK at the beginning...
no longer OK today.
Takes some attention from Jesus.
I'll have to agree.
Yuck.
St. Anthony's tongue in a beautiful church in Padova.
But hubby and I skipped that part.
Those old Christians were very ignorant....
they needed PROOF.
A way to teach the story of Jesus.
Exorcists say it's the most feared prayer by satan.
Guess you don't believe in exorcists either.
Hmmm. What's this all about?
Give her a break.
She bore God.
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