The Two Witnesses Came and Went Thousands of Years Ago

[Exegesis]

Since so many believe that the Two Witnesses are still future, I will share another viewpoint that actually fits Scripture.

A good verse to begin with is Revelation 12:1:

Revelation 12:1 - "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:"

The woman represents the carrier of the 'seed of the woman' that began in the Garden of Eden. In the context of Revelation 12:1, the woman carrying the seed at that particular moment in time was Sarah, who gives birth to Isaac. Similarly, the 'manchild' represents the carrier of Abraham's seed on the father's side.

Years pass and now the seed of the woman, through genealogy of the Israelites, flees into the wilderness of the Exodus. For 1260 years, the seed is nourished until Jesus is born. The Tabernacle in the Wilderness begins the 1260 years:

Revelation 12:6 - "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days."

The 'place prepared' is the body of Jesus, i.e., the Tabernacle:

Hebrews 10:5 - "Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:"

Again, the Israelites took care of their Messiah, baby Jesus, for 1260 years. At the same time, the Two Witnesses begin to testify. From Moses to John the Baptist, the Two Witnesses testify for 1260 years until the birth of Jesus:

Revelation - "11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."

All of the verses match up perfectly.

Here is a basic timeline:

• Woman on moon flees to the wilderness, i.e., the Exodus.
• Moses builds the Tabernacle in the Wilderness on day/year 1.
• The Seed of the Woman on moon is nourished for 1260 days/years until Jesus is born.
• At the same time, the Two Witnesses testify from Moses to John the Baptist for1260 days/years.
• Jesus is born on day/year 1260.
• Jesus begins ministry on day/year 1290, thirty years later.
• On day/year 1290, the Two Witnesses are killed. This would be the beginning of week 70.
• 3-1/2 days/years later, in the middle of the week, the Crucifixion takes place (Messiah is cut off).
• The Two Witnesses are raised. A great earthquake occurs.
• On day/year 1335, 45 years later, Jerusalem is destroyed.

And there you have it. The Two Witnesses already did their thing thousands of years ago.

PS: To those of you who believe you are one of the Two Witnesses, I am sorry to tell you... it aint you kid.

 

[Exegesis]

Here is a chart I made for reference:

​

 

[shepherdsword]

Here is a chart I made for reference:

View attachment 68121​

Your entire discombobulated fabrication is destroyed by three little words "I will give". This indicates that the two witnesses will not receive power until a time after the crucifixion.

 

[Exegesis]

Your entire discombobulated fabrication is destroyed by three little words "I will give". This indicates that the two witnesses will not receive power until a time after the crucifixion.

Hi @shepherdsword .

You are assuming that the beginning of the 1260 timeline begins at a point which it may not. In other words, it is up to us to determine when that starting point actually occurs. Just because one verse follows another, we should not assume that they are in chronological order. Revelation is famous for being a bit jumbled with timelines.

Having said that, I do not believe that the phrase 'I will give' automatically means that it is still future from our perspective or from the perspective of John writing Revelation. The main reason is that these verses tie in with the Book of Daniel, which go back 2300 years before the Crucifixion to the flood of Noah.

Remember, God placed the rainbow as a reminder of the Covenant:

Genesis 9:13 - "I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth."

That was the beginning of the 2300 'days'. Everything must be exegeted from there, including Revelation and the Two Witnesses.

​

I have yet to see anyone connect the Genesis 9:13 verse with this one:

Revelation 10:1 - "And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:"

Note that the angel stood on the earth and the sea. This is an allusion to the flood retreating as the covenant is made.

From that moment, there should be 'no more delay':

Revelation 10:6- "And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:"

In other words, the 2300 day/year clock began at that precise moment, ending with the Crucifixion when the Mystery of God was finished:

Revelation 10:7 - "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

'In the days' is the 2300 years after he began to sound. It was finished at the cross. History proves it. The timing was perfect.

In summary, *all* of these timeline prophecies need to be connected by the student in order to properly exegete the meanings.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The Two Witnesses already did their thing thousands of years ago.

I salute you for being brave enough to propose an ancient past fulfillment of the two witnesses. You are correct on that point. But to presume that we can apply the day-for-a-year principle to this 1260 day period of the two witnesses prophesying is not warranted in the context of this sixth trumpet judgment described in Rev. 9-11. We can't just arbitrarily assign the day / year principle without justification in the context itself.

Your proposed theory has contradictions with the Scripture language. For instance, after the "man-child" in Rev. 12 was born, He was "caught up to God and to His throne" (which was the ascended Christ sitting enthroned at God's right hand). Revelation 12:5 said that this man-child was "about to rule all nations with a rod of iron" - soon to happen from the perspective of JOHN'S day and time as he was writing.

The "woman" who fled into the wilderness for 1260 days is NOT the same time period as the 1,260 days in which the two witnesses were prophesying. This "woman" represented the Jewish believers at Jerusalem who experienced persecution almost as soon as Christ had ascended in AD 33. Those who fled from Jerusalem from the persecution by the Jewish leadership escaped into the wilderness of the countryside, preaching everywhere they went for those 1,260 days (until Saul / Paul was converted and ceased leading that persecution against them).

 

[Exegesis]

Hi @3 Resurrections

Let's see what you got.

I salute you for being brave enough to propose an ancient past fulfillment of the two witnesses. You are correct on that point. But to presume that we can apply the day-for-a-year principle to this 1260 day period of the two witnesses prophesying is not warranted in the context of this sixth trumpet judgment described in Rev. 9-11. We can't just arbitrarily assign the day / year principle without justification in the context itself.

I believe that Revelation 9 is still future and not connected to Daniel's 70 week prophecy. I do believe, however that Revelation 9 is connected to Daniel 2 and the 'toes' of the giant image that Nebuchadnezzar dreamed of:

Daniel 2:42 - "And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken."

I also believe that Revelation 9 is connected to the Little Horn of Daniel 7:

Daniel 7:8 - "I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things."

I believe the Little Horn of Daniel 8 came and went during the times of Jesus:

Daniel 8:9 - "And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land."

Augustus or Herod would be good fits for that particular incarnation of the Little Horn.

Your proposed theory has contradictions with the Scripture language. For instance, after the "man-child" in Rev. 12 was born, He was "caught up to God and to His throne" (which was the ascended Christ sitting enthroned at God's right hand). Revelation 12:5 said that this man-child was "about to rule all nations with a rod of iron" - soon to happen from the perspective of JOHN'S day and time as he was writing.

Since I believe the man-child represents the male genealogy covering 1260 years from Exodus to David to Jesus, the verses make sense to me from a historical perspective beginning with the 2300 year timeline after flood of Noah.

Maybe another way of looking at Revelation is to understand that God authored it before he created the universe. John merely put the pen and ink to paper. It was written long before that.

This "woman" represented the Jewish believers at Jerusalem who experienced persecution almost as soon as Christ had ascended in AD 33.

You have a right to your opinion. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Those who fled from Jerusalem from the persecution by the Jewish leadership escaped into the wilderness of the countryside, preaching everywhere they went for those 1,260 days (until Saul / Paul was converted and ceased leading that persecution against them).

The remnant of Her Seed is quite specific. The Greek is very accurate:

​

These are literal offspring of Sarah and Abraham. In other words, the Israelites. Abraham's seed.

Satan went to make war with the Israelites for 1260 years after the Exodus as is thoroughly documented in Scripture.

 

[3 Resurrections]

These are literal offspring of Sarah and Abraham. In other words, the Israelites. Abraham's seed.

Yes, they were literal Israelite offspring of Sarah and Abraham. The "remnant of the woman's seed" I believe were the bodily resurrected 144,000 Jewish First-fruits (the Matthew 27:52-53 saints) taken from among those various Israelite tribes listed in Rev. 7. They remained on the earth in those first-century days among the early church (the 1,260 days in which the church was being persecuted by Paul and the religious Jewish leadership), and Satan was then doing his best to make war on that "remnant" of Jewish 144,000 Matt. 27:52-53 glorified saints and the evangelistic work they were then doing.

I believe that Revelation 9 is still future and not connected to Daniel's 70 week prophecy.

Well, I agree with you that the sixth trumpet judgment was not connected with the 490 years of Daniel's prophecy, which ended in AD 37. But I do see that Revelation 9 was included in all of those prophecies of the near future for John's audience, because those visions were to show past things, present things going on as John was writing Revelation, and "things which are ABOUT TO BE hereafter" for John's first-century audience (Rev. 1:19). The Rev. 9 sixth trumpet was an event which was "ABOUT TO BE hereafter" in those first-century days, because every one of those revealed prophecies of the future was said to be "AT HAND" for them (Rev. 1:3 and 22:10) - not for us in our future.

Since I believe the man-child represents the male genealogy covering 1260 years from Exodus to David to Jesus, the verses make sense to me from a historical perspective beginning with the 2300 year timeline after flood of Noah.

This is a mistake to even presume that the 2,300 period is even said to be "days" in the prophecy. It wasn't. It was literally "2,300 evenings and mornings", which chops in half that 2,300 period into 1,150 literal 24-hour days with an evening and morning oblation (as Daniel referred to in Dan. 9:21). We can't just arbitrarily assign this 2,300 period to automatically be years, when the context doesn't say we can.

This 2,300 evenings and mornings of Daniel 8:14 was put in a particular temporal setting - namely, when the "little horn" coming out of the Greek empire overcame the temple and the host of Israel and the high priest "prince" of the host of Israel (Dan. 8:9-13). This was Antiochus IV whose army notoriously crushed Jerusalem and the faithful Israelites for a literal 1,150-day period until the Macabees emerged victorious, "cleansed the sanctuary", and rededicated it. Josephus tells us that it took this length of time for the temple to be cleansed and rededicated.

 

[shepherdsword]

Hi @shepherdsword .

You are assuming that the beginning of the 1260 timeline begins at a point which it may not. In other words, it is up to us to determine when that starting point actually occurs. Just because one verse follows another, we should not assume that they are in chronological order. Revelation is famous for being a bit jumbled with timelines.

Your chart has it at the beginning of Jesus' ministry.

Having said that, I do not believe that the phrase 'I will give' automatically means that it is still future from our perspective or from the perspective of John writing Revelation. The main reason is that these verses tie in with the Book of Daniel, which go back 2300 years before the Crucifixion to the flood of Noah.

Remember, God placed the rainbow as a reminder of the Covenant:



That was the beginning of the 2300 'days'. Everything must be exegeted from there, including Revelation and the Two Witnesses.

View attachment 68123​

I have yet to see anyone connect the Genesis 9:13 verse with this one:

If you shift the date back to the flood you still have to deal with the fact that it is a future empowerment of the two witnesses.

Note that the angel stood on the earth and the sea. This is an allusion to the flood retreating as the covenant is made.

It has nothing to do with the flood. Rev interprets itself and tells what the waters mean:

Rv 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

From that moment, there should be 'no more delay':

No more delay after the 7th trumpet.

In other words, the 2300 day/year clock began at that precise moment, ending with the Crucifixion when the Mystery of God was finished:

I am not sure where you got this from. It's a handy invention but contains no truth. This is what happens when the mystery is finished:

Rv 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 

[Douggg]

Since so many believe that the Two Witnesses are still future, I will share another viewpoint that actually fits Scripture.

The two witnesses will be killed by the beast-king. And their bodies will lay dead in the street of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days as the world celebrates their deaths. Then, after the 3 1/2 days, God will bring their bodies back to life, and a voice from heaven will say come up-hither. And they will ascend up to heaven in a cloud, as their enemies see it happen.

So the two witnesses are still future.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Since so many believe that the Two Witnesses are still future, I will share another viewpoint that actually fits Scripture.

A good verse to begin with is Revelation 12:1:



The woman represents the carrier of the 'seed of the woman' that began in the Garden of Eden. In the context of Revelation 12:1, the woman carrying the seed at that particular moment in time was Sarah, who gives birth to Isaac. Similarly, the 'manchild' represents the carrier of Abraham's seed on the father's side.

Years pass and now the seed of the woman, through genealogy of the Israelites, flees into the wilderness of the Exodus. For 1260 years, the seed is nourished until Jesus is born. The Tabernacle in the Wilderness begins the 1260 years:



The 'place prepared' is the body of Jesus, i.e., the Tabernacle:



Again, the Israelites took care of their Messiah, baby Jesus, for 1260 years. At the same time, the Two Witnesses begin to testify. From Moses to John the Baptist, the Two Witnesses testify for 1260 years until the birth of Jesus:



All of the verses match up perfectly.

Here is a basic timeline:

• Woman on moon flees to the wilderness, i.e., the Exodus.
• Moses builds the Tabernacle in the Wilderness on day/year 1.
• The Seed of the Woman on moon is nourished for 1260 days/years until Jesus is born.
• At the same time, the Two Witnesses testify from Moses to John the Baptist for1260 days/years.
• Jesus is born on day/year 1260.
• Jesus begins ministry on day/year 1290, thirty years later.
• On day/year 1290, the Two Witnesses are killed. This would be the beginning of week 70.
• 3-1/2 days/years later, in the middle of the week, the Crucifixion takes place (Messiah is cut off).
• The Two Witnesses are raised. A great earthquake occurs.
• On day/year 1335, 45 years later, Jerusalem is destroyed.

And there you have it. The Two Witnesses already did their thing thousands of years ago.

PS: To those of you who believe you are one of the Two Witnesses, I am sorry to tell you... it aint you kid.

This is total nonsense. Jesus is the male child of Revelation 12:5 who was to rule with a rod of iron and who was caught up to God and His throne. That should be obvious. The woman's other offspring are those who follow Jesus (Rev 12:17), so nothing you're saying fits what is written in Revelation 12. Also, the two witnesses symbolically represent the church consisting of two candlesticks and two olive trees representing Jew and Gentile believers together as one preaching the gospel throughout the world.

 

[soberxp]

If we understand it this way, what do unbelievers actually mean by the disaster caused by the two witnesses?

Because of their ability to make the sky not rain, or because of environmental degradation caused by the sky not rain.

 

[ScottA]

We who are His, are His witnesses:

Ephesians 2:15​

having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,​

 

[Exegesis]

Your chart has it at the beginning of Jesus' ministry.

I was referring to the starting point, which was 1260 years prior when God prepared a place for Her Seed to be protected from the face of the Serpent.

Here...

​

Ancient Israelite Temples Timeline (1300 BC—AD 100) – Temple Study

The woman fled from Pharaoh, the 'Dragon':

Ezekiel 29:3 - "Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself."

Revelation 12 is describing the Exodus.

If you shift the date back to the flood you still have to deal with the fact that it is a future empowerment of the two witnesses.

Agreed.

It has nothing to do with the flood. Rev interprets itself and tells what the waters mean:

Rv 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Are those people born yet? In other words, are you sure the 'waters' are not symbolic of something before conception?

​

The word 'harlot' is more literal than most understand. She needs Seed to give birth, understand?

Mountains in the Bible are often symbolic of the male organ. She 'sits' on them to conceive. This is the meat of the word.

No more delay after the 7th trumpet.

I am not sure where you got this from. It's a handy invention but contains no truth. This is what happens when the mystery is finished:

Rv 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

We can use some common sense here.

John was taken through a 'door', literally a portal, to a parallel universe, i.e., the New Heavens and New Earth. These were not mere 'visions of the future'. He was transported through what modern science would call a 'wormhole'. Moreover, John watched everything in Revelation as it happened, in real time. To us it is the future. To God and John, it already happened. Thus, everything in the above verse you posted already happened. Christians have a lot of trouble with time travel concepts, yet they are Scriptural.

Having said that, we turn to this verse again:

Revelation 10:7 - "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

What is the Mystery of God, and has it already been finished? Look:

1 Timothy 3:16 - "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

Now you tell me @shepherdsword , are we still waiting for 1 Timothy 3:16 to take place? I say obviously not, but according to you we are. Mystery of God and Mystery of Godliness are generally the same concept. It is about God's plan of Salvation which was finished at the cross.

 

[Exegesis]

We who are His, are His witnesses:

Ephesians 2:15​

having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,​

Is this related to a cloud of witnesses?

 

[Exegesis]

The two witnesses will be killed by the beast-king. And their bodies will lay dead in the street of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days as the world celebrates their deaths. Then, after the 3 1/2 days, God will bring their bodies back to life, and a voice from heaven will say come up-hither. And they will ascend up to heaven in a cloud, as their enemies see it happen.

So the two witnesses are still future.

That is the common viewpoint I used to believe for decades until one day I looked to see if it was Biblical.

I no longer believe the common view.

 

[Exegesis]

"things which are ABOUT TO BE hereafter" for John's first-century audience (Rev. 1:19).

How can you prove it though? In other words, what if John was simply writing down a quote that was written long before?

Take these verses for example:

Revelation 10:4-6 - "And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not. And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:"

Sounds future? OK, now, compare those verses with these:

Daniel 12:7-9 - "And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end."

It sounds very similar, right? However, instead of 'time no longer', we have 'time, times, and an half', referring to the 1260 year period from Moses to Jesus. The 'scatter the power of the holy people' was 70AD. It all happened already.

My point is how do you know that Revelation is not summarizing something that was written in Daniel's time or before?

It was literally "2,300 evenings and mornings", which chops in half that 2,300 period into 1,150 literal 24-hour days with an evening and morning oblation (as Daniel referred to in Dan. 9:21).

So, did God create everything in three days (half the time) and rest on a half day later?

Genesis 1:5 - "And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day."

Seems plain to me what a day is.

This statement is ironic:

We can't just arbitrarily assign this 2,300 period to automatically be years, when the context doesn't say we can

And yet you interpret Daniel's seventy weeks as years, but then you flip-flopped and turned other parts of the prophecy into 'half days'.

You mix and match days and years like everyone else until it fits your preconceived ideas. You're busted.

We can't just arbitrarily assign this 2,300 period to automatically be years, when the context doesn't say we can.

This 2,300 evenings and mornings of Daniel 8:14 was put in a particular temporal setting - namely, when the "little horn" coming out of the Greek empire overcame the temple and the host of Israel and the high priest "prince" of the host of Israel (Dan. 8:9-13). This was Antiochus IV whose army notoriously crushed Jerusalem and the faithful Israelites for a literal 1,150-day period until the Macabees emerged victorious, "cleansed the sanctuary", and rededicated it. Josephus tells us that it took this length of time for the temple to be cleansed and rededicated.

Oh, Josephus tells us eh? Funny, because the Bible says something else. I will believe the Bible.

 

[ScottA]

Is this related to a cloud of witnesses?

Of course. But the cloud of two witnesses refers to the first Adam and the Last, in whom all are made one new man.

 

[3 Resurrections]

And yet you interpret Daniel's seventy weeks as years,

That is not my interpretation - Scripture labels this as "seventy sevens". Everyone in Christ's days had been counting down the time of those "seventy sevens" and the Pharisees sent a delegation to John in AD 30 asking if he were the fulfillment of the Messiah prophecy. "Seventy sevens" from the decree which rebuilt Jerusalem's walls until AD 30 had amounted to 490 years, or seventy weeks of years, and all the people in Israel were "in expectation" that AD 30 year for the appearance of the Messiah.

I don't "flip-flop" unless the Scripture context itself authorizes a change.

Oh, Josephus tells us eh? Funny, because the Bible says something else. I will believe the Bible.

Neither you nor I need Josephus as the basis for what we believe. But you are not considering the context in which this particular "little horn" appeared on the timeline of the Greek empire. The Greek empire was the setting for the activity of this "little horn" for treading both the sanctuary and the host of Israel underfoot for those 2,300 evenings and mornings - which makes no mention at all of this being extended to years.

As for the subject of the original post, the two witnesses were going to be murdered by the Scarlet Beast. That Scarlet Beast once "WAS" in existence, then it "IS NOT" in existence as John was writing, but it was "ABOUT TO ARISE...AND GO INTO DESTRUCTION" - soon after John was writing Revelation. Now, since the Scarlet Beast was going to murder the two witnesses, it would have to do this soon after John wrote Revelation, because the Scarlet Beast itself was about to be destroyed soon in that same time frame.

 

[shepherdsword]

I was referring to the starting point, which was 1260 years prior when God prepared a place for Her Seed to be protected from the face of the Serpent.

Here...

View attachment 68185​

Ancient Israelite Temples Timeline (1300 BC—AD 100) – Temple Study

The woman fled from Pharaoh, the 'Dragon':

crocodile

Revelation 12 is describing the Exodus.

If the woman is Israel who is the manchild

Agreed.



Are those people born yet? In other words, are you sure the 'waters' are not symbolic of something before conception?

View attachment 68184​

The word 'harlot' is more literal than most understand. She needs Seed to give birth, understand?

Mountains in the Bible are often symbolic of the male organ. She 'sits' on them to conceive. This is the meat of the word.

You lost me at the "water = urine or semen" reference much less mountains =penis. I'll have to file this away on the wackadoodle shelf.

We can use some common sense here.

John was taken through a 'door', literally a portal, to a parallel universe, i.e., the New Heavens and New Earth. These were not mere 'visions of the future'. He was transported through what modern science would call a 'wormhole'. Moreover, John watched everything in Revelation as it happened, in real time. To us it is the future. To God and John, it already happened. Thus, everything in the above verse you posted already happened. Christians have a lot of trouble with time travel concepts, yet they are Scriptural.

Having said that, we turn to this verse again:

Parallel universe? wow, man you are waaaay out there.

What is the Mystery of God, and has it already been finished? Look:



Now you tell me @shepherdsword , are we still waiting for 1 Timothy 3:16 to take place? I say obviously not, but according to you we are. Mystery of God and Mystery of Godliness are generally the same concept. It is about God's plan of Salvation which was finished at the cross.

The incarnation has nothing to do with the two witnesses. It take a huge leap of apophenia to see it as such

 

[Rockerduck]

The 2 witnesses are the Church and the Holy Spirit. The Candlesticks and olive trees. Witnesses before God on all the earth. That said, Revelation is over, we are waiting for Christ now. It's all done.