When Christ returns, we shall all be changed, including heaven and earth, actually all things are changed out for something better.

[3 Resurrections]

It describes no more sound of weeping and crying. No weeping or crying,

This is the end of the period described as the "beginning of sorrows" described in Matthew 24:8. Those particular sorrows would come to an end.

You are completely lacking in discernment. That's not talking about literal healing, that's talking symbolically about eternally maintaining the perfect sinless conditions of the new heavens and new earths

The NHNE conditions of Revelation 21-22 are not sinless. Sinners committing sinful activity is still going on outside New Jerusalem's open gates (Rev. 22:15). The NEW JERUSALEM environment IS sinless, but that is only because of Christ's perfect imputed righteousness given to the believers who live inside. 2 Peter 3:13 speaking of the NHNE "wherein dwelleth righteousness" does NOT say that there is NOTHING BUT righteousness in that environment. Christ rules in the midst of His enemies, which still exist in the NHNE conditions.

And yes, I am aware that the "leaves" of the tree of life are not giving literal healing of diseases, flu, broken bones, etc. That "healing" is of the soul in salvation, which the thirsty nations outside the gates need desperately so that they too can access the living water in the city of New Jerusalem. It is as Isaiah 33:24 described the new Jerusalem: "and the inhabitant shall not say, I am sick: the people that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity." Being "forgiven their iniquity" is the healing which the tree of life brings to the nations.

 

[WPM]

There is a verse in Revelation that the Full Preterists tend to ignore, and it is Revelation 10:4 - the prophecies that the seven thunders uttered which John was forbidden to write down, but was to "seal up" for times to come later on. This information was not needed for John's immediate first-century audience, because these unwritten prophecies did not concern them or what they would be facing soon. The seven thunders' "sealed up" prophecies concerned FUTURE generations after AD 70, including our own future today.

I believe Rev. 10:4's seven thunders and their prophecies were indicating a pattern of seven total millennial ages of fallen mankind's history on this planet until God brings fallen mankind's history to a close. I am certainly not unique in thinking this. Many before me have caught the symbolism of a total of seven thousand years of history being a type which the seven days of Creation week prefigured. God's particular creative acts during each day of Creation week actually are a match for the prevailing theme of God's redemptive activity for each of the seven millennial ages of fallen mankind's history up to its culmination.

I have also included other texts before that address a future bodily resurrection for us, but they were dismissed, so I won't take time to list them again unless requested.

What is going to be better in eternity that Revelation 21-22 lacks?

 

[WPM]

If you check Isaiah 65's description of the New Heavens and the New Earth, it INCLUDES sinners, the righteous and sinners dying, curses, the birth of offspring, planting, harvesting, building houses, praying to God. There are some things in this list that cannot possibly describe the after-life existence of eternity.

Likewise, the NHNE conditions found in Revelation 22 also include the presence of sinners and sinful activity still going on outside the open gates of that New Jerusalem city. The nations outside the New Jerusalem gates in Rev. 22:2 still need healing, so we are not being presented with the after-life existence of eternity here either.


Of course perfection and glorification is coming for you and me in the future. But that perfection and glorification is not what is described in the NHNE conditions as found in either Isaiah 65 or Revelation 22. God is going to do even better than that for us in the final resurrection and judgment to come.

What comes after the new heaven and new earth? What do we call that? Where is it in Scripture? Where will it occur?

 

[3 Resurrections]

What is going to be better in eternity that Revelation 21-22 lacks?

God intends to rid this planet of any remaining human evil at the final judgment in our future. A planet purged of all evil, or even the possibility of evil cropping up again, is even better than the Garden of Eden. God can always do "one better" than we can imagine.

 

[Deleted member 26788]

QUOTE
"You keep misidentifying the creatures in that Rev. 9 prophecy. They weren't scorpions. They were called "locusts" who had tails like scorpions. All that symbolic language describes the torment caused by the soldiers under Gessius Florus the Judean governor who was doing his best to incite a rebellion against Rome in AD 66. The helmets, the field weaponry called "scorpions", the five-month time restriction on that torment given to those in the land of Israel - all of this was fulfilled in that AD 66 period."

OK , let's call them, "locusts", ( making the name of them some doctrinal pivotal non point) .ahem...since they look nothing like locusts.

I think it is yet another stumbling block for the historic view, since you can not adequately ascribe some historic signifigance. ( to the "locusts")
The Holy Spirit describing them as something you can not remake in fabrication.
But yes let's examine your efforts.

You have not demonstrated a mark required to buy and sell.
Where are the millions martyred for refusing the mark?

there is a bit of a problem with the 66 AD if you are thinking its something mentioned in Revelation , a book written in 95-96 CE. Revelation is not a book of history .for us its of the here and now with some of it yet to be known in the not so dissent future .
the locust' represent a certain group of people. BTW the JW's know who the locust are .

 

[Deleted member 26788]

What comes after the new heaven and new earth? What do we call that? Where is it in Scripture? Where will it occur?

new heaven and new earth basically means things will be done differently when the kingdom takes over all maters of the earth . the heavens will bring controlled rains that the whole earth is well watered . earthquakes that cause destruction and tsunami waves never happen .

 

[WPM]

new heaven and new earth basically means things will be done differently when the kingdom takes over all maters of the earth . the heavens will bring controlled rains that the whole earth is well watered . earthquakes that cause destruction and tsunami waves never happen .

Are you a JW?

 

[rebuilder 454]

there is a bit of a problem with the 66 AD if you are thinking its something mentioned in Revelation , a book written in 95-96 CE. Revelation is not a book of history .for us its of the here and now with some of it yet to be known in the not so dissent future .
the locust' represent a certain group of people. BTW the JW's know who the locust are .

Yes
I have shown them that.
Then they proceed to instruct on how it was written in 65 ad.
That early date "research" is full of pure malarkey.

....but ironically, history destroys preterism.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Dear JW locust,
The Parousia did not occur in 1914 as you falsely teach. There is one 2nd Coming and it did not happen invisibly in 1914.
The Watchtower's false prophecies just die out quietly when you guys finally realize they are wrong- but until you understand they are wrong- you insist on teaching them as FACT - straight from God.
Then they distort their own history to cover it up.. This is called false prophesying.

What Watchtower said prior to 1914--

"The year A.D. 1878 … clearly marks the time for the actual assuming of power as King of kings, by our present, spiritual, invisible Lord - …" ----The Time is at Hand (1911 ed) p 239-

"But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the END of the time of trouble.
--Zion's Watch Tower 1894 Jul 15 p 226-
------
What Watchtower claims it said prior to 1914--------

"The Watchtower has consistently presented evidence to honesthearted students of Bible prophecy that Jesus’ presence in heavenly Kingdom power began in 1914."---Watchtower 1993 Jan 15 p 5-

"Jehovah's witnesses pointed to the year 1914, decades in advance, as marking the start of "the conclusion of the system of things." Awake! 1973 Jan 22 p 8

Current Watchtower publications are not transparent about the history of their interpretation of 1914. Russell and Rutherford taught that Jesus' invisible presence started in 1874. The end of the Gentile times in 1914 was to signify God's visible rulership returning to earth.
-----------------
"Our Lord, the appointed King, is now present since October 1874, A.D., according to the testimony of the prophets, to those who have ears to hear it: and the formal inauguration of his kingly office dates from April 1878, A.D." Studies in Scriptures Series IV (1897) p.621

"The Scriptural proof is that the second presence of the Lord Jesus Christ began in 1874 A.D." Prophecy (1929) p.65

"From 1874 onward is the time of the Lord's second presence, as above stated his circumstantial evidence fulfilling prophecy is what constitutes the physical facts, and is proof corroborative of the Lord's presence since 1874. ... His presence beginning in 1874, he has carried on his harvest work from 1874 forward" Our Lord's Return (1929) pp.27, 33, 37

"… from the beginning of the Lord’s presence in 1874 the Devil used the Papal system as the chief opposing instrument of God’s kingdom …" Watchtower 1930 Sept 15 p 275

It was not until the Golden Age 1930 p.503 that Rutherford stated for the first time that Christ's return and "presence" were 1914, instead of 1874. Knowing this, the Watchtower articles dishonestly claim that the Organization always understood that 1914 was the year that began Jesus presence and rulership.

Mr Rutherford also prophesied that the end was coming in 1925! He had mansions built in California to house the "worthies- Abraham Isaac and Jacob.."
Rutherford lived in them instead. This was during the Depression. Rutherford lived like a king while everyone else struggled. Rutherford had a terrible drinking problem.

1925 - "Millions Now Living Will Never Die!"
"Millions now living will never die!" exclaimed Rutherford in a series lectures starting 1918. This was his prophecy that the earthly resurrection would begin 1925, with the return to life of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. This was the central focus of the Jws in the following years. Expectations for 1925 included:

• the end of Christendom
• the return of earth to a paradise
• the resurrection of the dead onto earth
• the Zionist teaching of the reestablishment of Palestine

Of course that prophecy failed-- why?

Jesus taught that Abraham etc would be in heaven.
“I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;-- Matt 8:11

Rutherford was a false prophet. Period. The Watchtower condemns false prophecies of others but never themselves. They use a different uneven scale to measure themselves. That is called hypocrisy. Jesus had quite a bit to say about false teachers/ false prophets.
Read Matt 7 in context. - "Workers of lawlessness" is directed to false prophets.

Next we can go to 1975. I don't know if you were a JW then but my parents were studying then. It was indeed also indeed FALSE PROPHECY.

Watchtower claims- Jehovah’s Witnesses as the Prophet of God​

Watchtower 4/1/72, pages 197-198​

“They shall know that a Prophet was among them.”​

Measuring pyramids and falsifying the date of the destruction of Jerusalem and convoluted math problems is no way to predict a thing. It is called, false prophecy. The evidence proves beyond doubt that the destruction of Jerusalem occurred between 586 and 587 B.C.
An objective reading of the Bible and history accepts that without issue.
The Watchtower Society has a heavily vested interest in 1914 and 607 B.C., and so they attempt to dismiss all evidence to the contrary, but anyone who seeks truth can clearly see this error of 607. I advise you to do some real research on this. It is CLEAR.

I used to work with a watch tower type guy back in the mid-seventies.
I Remember him bringing one of his magazines, that had a comet threatening Earth.
And it was gonna hit Earth and destroy Earth.
I can not member the year of the "impact" maybe 1976 or whatever.
But it was them all scared,and telling everybody "the sky is falling"
well It never happened.
Just another one of their false prophets with a false prophecy of which they have many. They're just wrong about so many things. It just turns my stomach.

Cult baloney.
Not even moderately close to the truth.

 

[PS95]

Are you a JW?

Yes, he is and JWs post incognito. If you think preterists are bad- wait til you hear the Jw version!

-Jesus' I mean- Michael's parousia (coming) was in 1914 invisibly- only Jws saw this- He chose them as best & only church although at that time they taught things that they call antichrist and did so up til 1954.
I dont want to go thru explaining this- instead I will give you the bottom line in laymans terms-
Nothing you say will change his mind. This is mind control. Only his leaders tell him what to think and believe- he can't sway from that or he will die at Armageddon..
If he survives that- if he does...
then he gets 1000 years to live on a paradise earth with the others in their previous mortal sinful nature bodies- where he get a chance to earn everlasting life by obeying the "new laws" which are in the books (scrolls in Rev) .
and where he will be TEACHING along with the other JW survivors (after cleaning up the dead bodies and plowing the fields etc) the.. (righteous) JWs- who previously died- by physically dying they paid for their own sins- so they are resurrected sinless.. but still in their mortal sinful nature. They will be resurrected slowly over time since earth can not handle them plus the ones they will be teaching the new laws to-- who are--
the (unrighteous) ( people who never heard this- the JW 1914 gospel) who died -- they will also slowly be resurrected in their mortal sinful nature bodies..
Can't resurrect them all at once since that's a too many people for earth to handle.., so they will be resurrected as others die off due to disobeying the new rules for paradise living.. in the books/scrolls in Rev. you see no deeds are in there since when you die your paid for your sin debt so the deeds you do in this life now are irrelevant since they are "acquitted" or "freed" from by dying. Yes that is Romans 6 with a twist of sheer ignorance.
These new rules will be given from above by the JWs who went to heaven to rule over them along with Michael and the apostles etc.
They will get the 1000 yrs to become perfected. Then they will have earned everlasting life on paradise earth..
IF they make it through the final test of satan's release..

You may have to read that several times- I packed a lot in there-
That's good enough.. it's the gist. Jws don't like when I do this- I reveal what they teach without the fluff and word games- I tell it like it is like a child- when they see how it reduce it to just the facts it angers them .My job is to expose not coddle them.

ALL of that - is because they do not comprehend Romans chapter 6.- and read it in a very carnal way.

Romans 6:7 and add it to 1/2 of a sentence in Ro 6:23- watch this-
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
6:7 is only part of a sentence--here it is in full-
For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7for he who has died is freed from sin.

and verse 23-

23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They put 1/7 of one sentence v 7 along with 1/2 of vs 23

and came up with this doctrine--

the wages of sin is death, he who has died is freed from sin.

There isn't much to say is there? woweee, but they believe it and that's that. Where is JESUS you ask?
WELL--- they would have stayed dead and not had this chance..

 

[PS95]

I used to work with a watch tower type guy back in the mid-seventies.
I Remember him bringing one of his magazines, that had a comet threatening Earth.
And it was gonna hit Earth and destroy Earth.
I can not member the year of the "impact" maybe 1976 or whatever.
But it was them all scared,and telling everybody "the sky is falling"
well It never happened.
Just another one of their false prophets with a false prophecy of which they have many. They're just wrong about so many things. It just turns my stomach.

Cult baloney.
Not even moderately close to the truth.

it may have been the end they had predicted for 1975...

Right- there is no Christ in that religion. It is worse than you probably want to even know.

 

[WPM]

Yes, he is and JWs post incognito. If you think preterists are bad- wait til you hear the Jw version!

-Jesus' I mean- Michael's parousia (coming) was in 1914 invisibly- only Jws saw this- He chose them as best & only church although at that time they taught things that they call antichrist and did so up til 1954.
I dont want to go thru explaining this- instead I will give you the bottom line in laymans terms-
Nothing you say will change his mind. This is mind control. Only his leaders tell him what to think and believe- he can sway from that or he will die at Armageddon..
If he survives that- if he does...
then he gets 1000 years to live on a paradise earth with the others in their previous mortal sinful nature bodies- where he get a chance to earn everlasting life by obeying the "new laws" which are in the books (scrolls in Rev) .
and where he will be TEACHING along with the other JW survivors (after cleaning up the dead bodies and plowing the fields etc) the.. (righteous) JWs- who previously died- by physically dying they paid for their own sins- so they are resurrected sinless.. but still in their mortal sinful nature. They will be resurrected slowly over time since earth can not handle them plus the ones they will be teaching the new laws to-- who are--
the (unrighteous) ( people who never heard this- the JW 1914 gospel) who died -- they will also slowly be resurrected in their mortal sinful nature bodies..
Can't resurrect them all at once since that's a too many people for earth to handle.., so they will be resurrected as others die off due to disobeying the new rules for paradise living.. in the books/scrolls in Rev. you see no deeds are in there since when you die your paid for your sin debt so the deeds you do in this life now are irrelevant since they are "acquitted" or "freed" from by dying. Yes that is Romans 6 with a twist of sheer ignorance.
These new rules will be given from above by the JWs who went to heaven to rule over them along with Michael and the apostles etc.
They will get the 1000 yrs to become perfected. Then they will have earned everlasting life on paradise earth..
IF they make it through the final test of satan's release..

You may have to read that several times- I packed a lot in there-
That's good enough.. it's the gist. Jws don't like when I do this- I reveal what they teach without the fluff and word games- I tell it like it is like a child- when they see how it reduce it to just the facts it angers them .My job is to expose not coddle them.

ALL of that - is because they do not comprehend Romans chapter 6.- and read it in a very carnal way.

Romans 6:7 and add it to 1/2 of a sentence in Ro 6:23- watch this-
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
6:7 is only part of a sentence--here it is in full-
For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7for he who has died is freed from sin.

and verse 23-

23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They put 1/7 of one sentence v 7 along with 1/2 of vs 23

and came up with this doctrine--

the wages of sin is death, he who has died is freed from sin.

There isn't much to say is there? woweee, but they believe it and that's that. Where is JESUS you ask?
WELL--- they would have stayed dead and not had this chance..

Thanks for that!

What hogwash they hold. It is a waste trying to reason with them.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, Rev. 10:4 is not the only text that applies to our own future. I wrote that I had given a list of Scriptures earlier that addressed a future resurrection for us, but they were dismissed.

Can you please just answer the question I asked? Which scriptures do you believe refer to the future (still future) return of Jesus Christ?

 

[Deleted member 26788]

Thanks for that!

What hogwash they hold. It is a waste trying to reason with them.

you far more to fear from PS95 then ever will come from a JW . PS95 is promoting apostate propaganda which makes them little better than Judas . the difference is Judas showed regret for his actions .anything said by an apostate needs to be carefully examined,even ignored .

 

[WPM]

you far more to fear from PS95 then ever will come from a JW . PS95 is promoting apostate propaganda which makes them little better than Judas . the difference is Judas showed regret for his actions .anything said by an apostate needs to be carefully examined,even ignored .

He is speaking the truth. I have nothing in common with your apostasy. Bye, bye. You are a deceiver.

Jesus is Lord!!! He is God!

 

[PS95]

you far more to fear from PS95 then ever will come from a JW . PS95 is promoting apostate propaganda which makes them little better than Judas . the difference is Judas showed regret for his actions .anything said by an apostate needs to be carefully examined,even ignored .

I am Judas apostate because I don't agree with the Watchtower? Ok. I was not a baptized Jw. Was raised in it. Became a Christian in my 30's.
JWs on here like to accuse me, but they never show me where I was wrong when I ask them. Cheap shots are just that.
You are more than welcome to add to what I wrote and correct any errors.
There may be some things not 100% perfect there. It's an overview from memory and I know your religion changes a lot.
So-feel free to do so! I welcome your additions.
I will check what you say to be sure it's accurate- because there can be quite a bit of doublespeak from the watchtower.

 

[Deleted member 26788]

He is speaking the truth. I have nothing in common with your apostasy. Bye, bye. You are a deceiver.

Jesus is Lord!!! He is God!

please be careful ,apostate's speak to their own advantage and to the prospect of getting even

 

[WPM]

please be careful ,apostate's speak to their own advantage and to the prospect of getting even

It is describing the JWs. They are deceived by Satan.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is the end of the period described as the "beginning of sorrows" described in Matthew 24:8. Those particular sorrows would come to an end.

LOL. Hilarious. I can't take your nonsense seriously at all and I don't want to waste any more time addressing it since you have interpretations all to yourself that I feel certain that no one else in the world shares with you.

The NHNE conditions of Revelation 21-22 are not sinless.

Revelation 21:4 specifically says there will be no more death in the NHNE. No more death means no more sin. No more death means everyone on the new earth will have immortal and incorruptible bodies at that point.

 

[Deleted member 26788]

It is describing the JWs. They are deceived by Satan.

do your self a favor ,spend time with the JW's . if you are honest with your self you will see through the lies the apostates are telling . I don't know why PS95 decided to join apostate action against the JW's nor do I care .