Actually Jesus returns twice...

[gpresdo]

That Someone would be Christ
1 Thess 4:16-17
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So u r saying Christ will appear for a twinkling of an eye?
I said that for commentary from others. Because I dont understand it.

I dont understand that He will appear for super brief appearance and then later...therefore twice?

I am concerned that a human used wording that don't fit.
Comments please.

 

[gpresdo]

Prophecy. Do you not believe in prophecy?

I believe...I believe.
I am concerned that He is mandated to return twice by human error, possibly in writing or word choice. ??

 

[gpresdo]

At the rapture Christ doesn't come and stand on the earth.
Is the rapture THE second coming? Technically no. But, it is a coming of Christ.

A agree... Just trying to explore a understanding.

 

[PeterAndroz]

So u r saying Christ will appear for a twinkling of an eye?
I said that for commentary from others. Because I dont understand it.

I dont understand that He will appear for super brief appearance and then later...therefore twice?

I am concerned that a human used wording that don't fit.
Comments please.

""So u r saying Christ will appear for a twinkling of an eye?"""
'twinkling of an eye' is the speed at which believers are raised.
1 Cor15:52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
..
These verses teach the duration.
1 Thess 4:16-17
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[CrowCross]

So u r saying Christ will appear for a twinkling of an eye?

Scripture is sayig we will be changed in a twinkling of an eye...It doesn't say Christ will appear for a twinkling of an eye.

 

[CrowCross]

A agree... Just trying to explore a understanding.

No problem. It's complicated. That's why we debate and try to figure it out.

 

[CrowCross]

I believe...I believe.
I am concerned that He is mandated to return twice by human error, possibly in writing or word choice. ??

Or you could be concerned the He is mandated to return only at the end of the tribulation.....this too is human error or writing or word choice.

I don't know if you've read post 1. There I made my case.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, the beginning and ending of the timeframe.

I'm talking about as brief as a second inbetween. Second coming starts, resurrection and rapture happen, Millennium happens. No other rapture or Coming.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Jude does not say all the saints are coming with Him from heaven

14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

Oh I see
You need the extra idea that the Church is not in heaven, pre second coming, which is easily debunked.

No brainer in fact.

 

[Scott Downey]

Oh I see
You need the extra idea that the Church is not in heaven, pre second coming, which is easily debunked.

No brainer in fact.

You can not prove the entire Church in Christ is in heaven prior to the 2nd coming.

 

[CrowCross]

Jude does not say all the saints are coming with Him from heaven

14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

Isn't ten thousands a way of expressing a huge number?

 

[Scott Downey]

Oh I see
You need the extra idea that the Church is not in heaven, pre second coming, which is easily debunked.

No brainer in fact.

• Matthew 13:30 explicitly states that the wheat and weeds grow together until the harvest at the end of the age. There is no prior evacuation; they inhabit the same field side-by-side until the reapers (angels) arrive.
• 1 Thessalonians 4:15–17 specifically addresses "we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord," anchoring the living Church directly on earth right up until the moment of the descent and the trumpet blast.
• 1 Corinthians 15:52 ties the transformation of the living ("we shall be changed") strictly to "the last trumpet," ruling out a scenario where generations of believers have already been living in heaven in glorified states long before that final trumpet sounds.

 

[Scott Downey]

EVERYONE!
If the first rapture is invisible and mid-trib, and the second rapture happens at the visible Second Coming, where does Paul get to call the first one a 'last trumpet' if there is another group being gathered later?

And where in Scripture are believers ever divided into two separate categories of 'Church' and 'Tribulation Saints' who get different salvation timelines?"

You got to distort scripture to fall in with that way of thinking

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That's a second coming passage that happens 7 years after the rapture.

Why would you think that "he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe" (2 Thess 1:10) 7 years after the rapture? You think we will be gathered to Him at the rapture, but Jesus won't "be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe" at that time?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your being obtuse here. The point is a sudden destruction is coming for this world, this is taught By Jesus, Peter, and Paul. The destruction is not symbolic.

Premills go completely out of their way to deny obvious truth. It's sad to witness. The scriptures are very clear that mass physical destruction will occur when Jesus returns. Peter is explicitly clear that it will affect the entire earth (2 Peter 3:10-12).

 

[Scott Downey]

Premills go completely out of their way to deny obvious truth. It's sad to witness. The scriptures are very clear that mass physical destruction will occur when Jesus returns. Peter is explicitly clear that it will affect the entire earth (2 Peter 3:10-12).

Christ also says like this,
Luke 21

The Importance of Watching​

34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with [a]carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly.

35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may [b]be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Christ also says like this,
Luke 21

The Importance of Watching​

34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with [a]carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly.

35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may [b]be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Right. The text is explicitly clear, but we (amils) get accused of spiritualizing scripture. No, our amil doctrine is based on literal scriptures like the one you posted here and 2 Peter 3:10-12.

 

[Scott Downey]

Luke 21 gives us great understanding of the days before that coming Day of the Lord.

The Destruction of Jerusalem​

20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The Coming of the Son of Man​

25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

The Parable of the Fig Tree​

29 Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30 When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

The Importance of Watching​

34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with [h]carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may [i]be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

37 And in the daytime He was teaching in the temple, but at night He went out and stayed on the mountain called Olivet. 38 Then early in the morning all the people came to Him in the temple to hear Him.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

EVERYONE!
If the first rapture is invisible and mid-trib, and the second rapture happens at the visible Second Coming, where does Paul get to call the first one a 'last trumpet' if there is another group being gathered later?

And where in Scripture are believers ever divided into two separate categories of 'Church' and 'Tribulation Saints' who get different salvation timelines?"

You got to distort scripture to fall in with that way of thinking

Right. The last trumpet is not actually the last trumpet in any sense in the pre-trib rapture view. It's the second to last trumpet or something like that instead.

 

[Scott Downey]

Right. The last trumpet is not actually the last trumpet in any sense in the pre-trib rapture view. It's the second to last trumpet or something like that instead.

They don't know how to count, and Last Day and that great sound of a trumpet, Last Trumpet, to me go hand in hand as both point to the return of Christ, and the resurrection of the dead.

1. Matthew 24:31
   And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. 1 Corinthians 14:8
   For if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare for battle?
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. 1 Corinthians 15:52
   in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
4. 1 Thessalonians 4:16
   For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.