Historic facts are stubborn things. He has nothing, apart from his ad hominem and avoidance. That is his MO. He is running from the evidence. He has brought zero facts to the table. No Premil has.
The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics - see the evidence
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Davy
Well-Known Member
The reader can check this thread and see that you are full of noise. You have zero of historic weight to bring to the table. You are out of your depth. You do not have a clue on this subject.
Davy
Well-Known Member
I have presented rock solid evidence in this thread. You have presented nothing but your own fanciful theories. You have zero evidence. The reader can see that for themselves. You're simply digging a hole for yourself.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
I've had these discussions before, and I certainly don't accuse Amils of being "Gnostic!" I'm Premil and don't at all think of Amils as "corrupt" or "heretical!"
And I agree the mentioned heretics deserved to be condemned, and do see some elements of their heretical teaching in Christian eschatology. For example, Dispensationalism separates Israel and the International Church at times to the extent they have different spiritual outcomes and different legal relationships to God.
But setting aside the heresies, Futurism and Millennialism do not have to contain Dispensational errors that divide Israel from the Church. Israel is simply one nation, as opposed to other nations, and has their own period of development.
So, Israel began ahead of the rest of the nations as a covenant nation, and the rest of the nations began their covenant relationship with God after the coming of Christ. This is not a big difference except that it is a matter of timing, ie when a nation begins its covenant relationship with God.
Israel began with God under the Law in preparation for the coming of Christ. By the time Christ came they had fallen into national apostasy with only a small remnant entering into Christ's new covenant.
This did not mean Israel's national hope was gone--just gone for a very, very long time! Israel will be, I think, readmitted into the families of nations in covenant with Christ after Christ returns.
The idea that Israel will return to God and to their old covenant of Law is not credible theology. The Law is gone, having been a temporary fix until Christ could complete all atonement.
Belief in the future salvation of national Israel is sometimes confused with the idea that every single individual in Israel will get born again Saved? But that has never been God's goal while mortal humanity continues in existence. His purpose has been to save indviduals by grace, but in the meantime to politically save, ie save militarily nations that are willing to introduce Christian values.
And so, I think when Christ returns Israel will get politically saved as a nation. The Jewish refrain is: "Never Again!" Even then, not every individual in Israel will get spiritually saved. Just sharing my view...
You claim "Israel will be, I think, readmitted into the families of nations in covenant with Christ after Christ returns ... I think when Christ returns Israel will get politically saved as a nation." Where does Scripture teach this? Can you show us one early orthodox Chiliast that actually taught this?
I have shown on this thread that such a view can only be found amongst the early Premillennialist heretics. The evidence is there for all to see.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
I think early orthodox Chiliasm lacks a lot of details about Israel's future salvation and inclusion with the family of Christian nations. And that is because that information was given primarily in the OT era, the NE era having to move on from an apostate Israel.
So, the emphasis in the Early Church was on evangelism of the nations, as opposed to any effort to bring Israel into an experience of national deliverance. She was placed under strict conditions of judgment as a nation, and any effort to undo this would fail.
Not until God's program of evangelism among other nations is finished will God return to deliver Israel politically. I believe He has already begun this in our time. Spiritual Salvation, however, must follow Christ's Return, in my view.
All the unbelieving in Christ, and all the people who do not obey Christ's gospel, that means God's command to repent and believe in His Son, Christ-God, destroy at Christ's return; that is what scripture says. Scripture is very consistent in that message.
It never says the unsaved get saved after He comes back. That is a man's idea.
2 thess 1, you need to believe that, and believe what Christ says in the gospels. All unbelieving people God casts into the fire.
There is no evangelization work after Christ returns. That work is for this time only, then comes the end.
When people are dead, there is only the judgment left for them. And many are dead men walking.
Only Christians eagerly wait for the return of Christ, unbelievers fear and hate such a thing, they know it is their destruction, they prefer myths about Christ, not reality, not that He is real.
Yet still they will not believe unless God does His work in their hearts. Otherwise they prefer to follow Satan, that comes naturally, you cannot legislate a religion.
Hebrews 9
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
When people are dead, there is only the judgment left for them. And many are dead men walking.
Only Christians eagerly wait for the return of Christ, unbelievers fear and hate such a thing, they know it is their destruction, they prefer myths about Christ, not reality, not that He is real.
Yet still they will not believe unless God does His work in their hearts. Otherwise they prefer to follow Satan, that comes naturally, you cannot legislate a religion.
Hebrews 9
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
I put it to you: the Bible simply doesn't teach that. That might explain why the orthodox Chiliasts didn't believe it or teach it. It was taught exclusively within the heretical camp. See the hard evidence in the Op. So far you have brought no actual evidence to the table – biblical or historic. That has always been my main issue with you. You just present your opinions. I'm not trying to offend you bro, but your posts are typically lacking in actual hard evidence, which is all that we can go on.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
I answered your questions--thatt's all I can do, brother. I think there may be evidence that Amils destroyed Chiliastic material. If so, I can't bring the ashes of destroyed information. You certainly don't have to believe that there is evidence if you can't actually see it.
I disagree with your notion that the Bible doesn't teach this. We are disagreeing on interpretation--not on the material that is sometimes interpreted to be such. It appears to my camp that Paul taught national Israel has been set aside *as a nation in covenant with God* until the end of the present era. Then "all Israel will be saved"--in a political sense as well as in a spiritual sense, ie as a nation in covenant with God once again. Rom 11.
I fully understand that you, Amils, and Replacement Theologians read the same material differently with your own interpretation. But the material is there, however one chooses to read it. Not just that but there are many OT prophecies that indicate Israel's national salvation must at some point take place, whether it is identified as a thousand years or not.
The matter of finding evidence in the Church Fathers as to how they specifically described this is of lesser concern to me. I've explained to you how Chiliastic documents could've been burned, or how the interest at the time was more on Gentile nations getting converted to Christianity than on when Israel, as a nation, would be relieved of their national punishment.
Thanks for the conversation.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
2 Thes 1 says that the *hardened,* who reject the Gospel *permanently,* are cast into the fire, ie burned up, destroyed from our plane of existence, or removed to Outer Darkness. It does not address the future of national Israel at all!
There is in fact information on Israel getting Saved at or after Christ Returns. It is a matter of how you interpret it.
For example, it seems apparent that Zech 12-14 conttains information on a future and final salvation of national Israel at the end of the ages. And Rev 1 picks up on this by declaring that when Christ returns, many will weep. That is, they will repent, such as is indicated for national Israel in Zech 12-14.
Zech 12.10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
Rev 1.7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
Again, you are presenting no historic evidence. That is the point of this thread. Where are your historic witnesses?
Romans 11:5-7 explains: “Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.”
This is actually saying the opposite to what you are arguing. In fact, it is actually saying what is says: “Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for.” In short, salvation or favor with God has absolutely nothing to do with ethnicity. It is not about being an Israelite; it is nothing to do with racial status or nationality; it is all to do with being chosen – namely being one of God’s elect remnant. This is the only means of favor with God. This spiritual family are the true Israel and the only accepted people of God. To be of the “election” one has to have a real personal intimate relationship with Jesus Christ.
What “election hath obtained it”? The “election of grace” that pertains to the “remnant.” It is not the whole of Israel, but a remnant that is elected!!!
Romans 11:25: “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness [Gr. porosisor – hardening] in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”
This passage continues the theme of what Paul has been presenting in regard to the mystery of the dichotomy between the chosen and the hardened of Israel. Paul is nowhere saying that salvation is by way of Israeli birth right; otherwise he would totally reverse everything he has hitherto taught in his epistles, and counter the consistent teaching of Scripture (Old and New Testament) that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. No, Paul is simply expanding upon his preceding comments about an elect people within the physical nation – “a remnant according to the election of grace.” This is true Israel!
He is re-emphasizing the fact that one’s natural birth and Israeli citizenship “hath not obtained” or could obtain “that which he seeketh for.” Many miss this. Paul was referring here to natural Jewish ethnicity. He was once again presenting the great truth that race has no bearing on our salvation.
Blindness in part does not mean that a Jew is half enlightened and half blinded. The fact is, men are either saved or else they aren’t. We learn, not all Israelis are blinded, only part of Israel (albeit, a large part). Only they who have experienced eternal life through faith in Christ are saved. The remaining Israelis that depend upon their own works or innate goodness are deluded. Notwithstanding, they are not all deceived; a remnant will continue to believe (as they always have). The engrafting isn’t restricted to an end-time mass corporate repentance by the whole nation (prior to the Lord’s coming) as Dispensationalists seem to imagine (although a sizeable company of Jews may be saved at the end). This reading makes no such suggestion along that line. It is simply speaking of that portion or part of Israel that is not blinded but has been saved by the precious blood of Jesus. They will continue to come to Christ “while” the Gentiles also come through. Again, this grouping is called “a remnant according to the election of grace” (Romans 11:5).
Paul underlines in Romans 11:28: “As concerning the gospel, they (Christ-rejecting Jews) are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election (God’s people), they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.”
There are two distinct but diverse peoples described here – one saved and the other lost. These two distinct groups operate under two antithetical banners: “enemies” and “the election.” The enemies are the general Christ-rejecting populace of natural Israel. They are also identified as the "blinded." The "election" are the chosen believers.
No one could argue that all natural Israelis are “enemies” as “concerning the gospel.” After all, many have gladly embraced Christ over this past 2,000 years, because of this they are intimately loved of the Father. They are not enemies of God, but rather friends. This fits Paul’s ongoing comparison between those who are loved by God amongst his kinsmen, and those who are enemies.
It is “the election” here that are saved. They are the remnant that belongs to God – His favor rests upon them. The rest are blind and are of their father the devil.
Romans 2
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the [c]Greek;
Well, the unbelieving Jews are hardened against Christ.
2 Thess 1 is very clear about what will happen to anyone who does not believe in Christ when He returns from verse 7 onwards.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and [a]tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest[b] evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with [c]tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 2 - New King James Version
God’s Righteous Judgment - Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. And...
God’s Righteous Judgment
1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your [a]impenitent heart you are [b]treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the [c]Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That Romans 2 judgment occurs at the return of Christ. Any Jews who are going to be saved, have to do that before Christ returns.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Right. He is promoting a second chance gospel where people will get a second chance at salvation when Jesus returns and scripture never teaches such a thing. Instead, as you pointed out, it teaches that all unbelievers will be destroyed when Jesus returns, as Paul explicitly indicated in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Let's look at the text to see if what you're saying is indicated in the text itself.
2 Thessalonians 1: and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
I don't see any reference to only "the hardened who reject the Gospel permanently" here. Instead, it refers to all those who don't know God and those who don't obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. All unbelievers fit that description, including all unbelievers in national Israel. No unbelievers in national Israel will get another chance at salvation when Jesus returns. That blatantly contradicts what Paul indicated in this passage. And there's no way they can survive what Peter described as occurring when Jesus returns in 2 Peter 3:10-12.
This is a common mistake that Premils make. While Zechariah 12:10 and Revelation 1:7 have similarities, they do not have the same context. I have seen how you similarly try to directly relate Daniel 7:13-14 to Matthew 24:30 and Rev 1:7 despite them not having the same context.
Jesus quoted Zechariah 12:10 in John 19:37 in a first coming context. You can't just ignore that.
John 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. 35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe. 36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, “Not one of His bones shall be broken.” 37 And again another Scripture says, “They shall look on Him whom they pierced.”
Jesus directly related Zechariah 12:10 to the time when they looked upon Him when He was pierced in His side with a spear. Also, the mourning in Zechariah 12:10 relates to people mourning Jesus's death. That contrasts with Revelation 1:7 which has nothing to do with people mourning His death, but rather has to do with people wailing in fear at the sight of Jesus, as we can see described here:
Revelation 6:12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky [i]receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Well said. Someone trying to make salvation have anything to do with one's nationality completely contradicts everything that Paul said in Romans 11 (along with Romans 9 and 10 as well). It's not about nationality at all. That is taught repeatedly in the New Testament. As Paul said in Romans 9:8 in relation to the natural descendants of Israel and Abraham: "those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God". He wasn't saying that none of the natural descendants of Israel and Abraham are the children of God, of course. He was saying that being a child of God has nothing to do with one's nationality. Instead, it has to do with whether or not someone has faith in Christ, as Paul wrote in Galatians 3:26.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
You need to read the whole book.
2 Thes 2.9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
Actually, they are the same prophecy. The book of Revelation is quoting the Zech 12.10 passage, but amending it to apply not just to Israel but to the many nations who find themselves in the same position as Israel. I believe those nations are backslidden former Christian nations.
Dan 7.13 has Jesus Coming down from Heaven to establish God's Kingdom. But immediately after stating this Jesus appears to turn around and visit a Meeting in Heaven. This would be a contradiction to the statement that he is Coming unless this Meeting is given as a kind of insertion by way of explanation, indicating where Jesus' authority to establish God's Kingdom is coming from.
The story of the Ascension in the Gospels makes no reference to Dan 7.13.
The passage in John 19.37 is just stating that Jesus was pierced. Unless he is pierced in history he cannot come back and be recognized by Israel as the one who was pierced.
Both elements are part of Zech 12.10--his piercing and his return to be recognized as such. But Rev 1 identifies it as completed at the 2nd Coming.
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