Is it possible to lose salvation?

[BreadOfLife]

ntercession refers to the act of intervening on behalf of another, often in a context of prayer or influence.

Not it is not the very pictrue of intercession. You are making an assumption without evidence that the censors are the saints praying to God on behalf of earthly saints.

Intercession is doing ANYTHING on behalf of another.

In Rev. 5:8 – the Elders in Heaven are taking our prayers to God.

Bishop/Pastor same thing. it was the catholic church small C.

No – “Catholic Church” with a capital C.

We see in the Letter to the Smyrnaeans at the beginning of the 2nd century – while the Apostle John was STILL alive, his disciple, Ignatius of Antioch wrote about the “Catholic Church”. A in that same century, we read the document, The Martyrdom of Polycarp:
“When finally he concluded his prayer, after remembering all who had at any time come his way – small folk and great folk, distinguished and undistinguished, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world – the time for departure came. So they placed him on an ass, and brought him into the city on a great Sabbath.”

The underlined phrase above is proof that they were using “Catholic Church” as a TITLE and NOT just a description.

And they sought to reform the church by bringing it back from the corruption that caused the dark ages. And they had the Apostles and their writings to guide them.

No – TRUE Reformation comes from within. By the 16th century – there were definitely some problems with Church hierarchy. There will ALWAYS be problems when humans are involved with anything.

Instead of trying to fix and reform those issues – men like Luther, Calvin, Zwingili, etc. began to pervert doctrine as well and separated themselves from the Church.

there was no centralized church like we understand it. If there was one it would have been all the churches Paul planted and nurtured.

There absolutely WAS a centralized Church headquartered in Rome – established by Peter and Paul.

This is attested to by the Early Church Fathers. Men like Irenaeus, Dionysius of Corinth, Tertullian, Lactantius and many others.

The Roman Catholic Church historically forbade the reading of the Bible in one's native languageduring certain periods.The Council of Toulouse (1229) and Council of Trent (1546) issued prohibitions against the laity possessing vernacular translations of the Bible, citing concerns over heresy and the potential for corrupt
They were not heretical nor flawed any more than the vulgate was. they were translations form the most part by church doctors.

Either you’re OUT of your mind – or you’re just really ignorant. I’ll tale that latter and give you the benefit of the doubt . . .

There were errors in pronouns, errors in language translation, errors in Parables and incidents, etc. One version had the Commandment listed as: “Thou shalt commit adultery".
This led to doctrinal issues, confusing messages, etc.

The Church finally put an end to this at the Council of Toulouse in the 12th century.

And if the "sacred tradition" as romanism calls it, contradicts the written word of God, it is to be rejected and resisted at all costs.

If by “Romanism”, you mean, the Catholic Church – explain which Sacred Traditions “contradict” the Scriptures.

By the way – the Canon of Scripture is a Sacred Tradition because the list of Books that belong in the Bible are NOT listed in the Bible . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

So wrong. The bible came from god as He inspired the authors to speak and write it! they were in the church but the church did not create the bible-God did!

God is the AUTHOR of Scripture. He relayed His Word through His Church, who transcribed it, compiled it and declared the Canon under the guidance of the Holy Spirit (John 16:12-1).

The Bible did NOT fall out of the Heavens. It came FROM God - THROUGH His Church.

Many of Romanisms oral traditions do!

Instead of using an ignorant and stupid term like “Romanism” – just say “Catholic Church” . . .

And sorry infant baptism is not even implied in any of those verses. there is no hint of Baptism except for 1 Cor. 1. and a cursory understanding of the culture and history would have let you know that people counted in the household were all of age (teens andabove)

WRONG.

In 1st century culture, people of ALL ages lived under ONE roof – adults, elderly and children of ALL ages. In EVERY one of those verses, ENTIRE families were Baptized.

 

[Marymog]

Can you repost teh questions then and I will give you that courtesy.

Post #2,024:

Ronald,

How do you exegesis these two passages: ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

7 to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give eternal life;

Curious Mary

PS (Debunking "faith alone")
James 2:14-26 (faith without works is dead)
Acts 2: 38/Mark 16:16 (repent and be baptized and you will be saved)
1 Peter 3:21 (baptism now saves you)
Mathew 25 (if you don't do good deeds he will send you to eternal fire)
Romans 10:9 (profess with your mouth and you will be saved)
John 5 (those who have done good go the resurrection of life)

 

[Marymog]

Who told you monks do no works?

Do you understand what works are?
Do you think it means going to work in an office from 9 to 5?

@Treeline confused me on that one. You just said what I was thinking!

 

[Taken]

Taken....really brother,
you need to calm down because you are NOT understanding my posts and this has never happened before.

Chuckle.

YOU have stated that God gives and takes away rewards.

Uh huh….
He “does”.
What you Harped on repeatedly is saying, “He didn’t come to give rewards.”

What you Repeatedly FAIL to UNDERSTAND
IS:
* Mans “mortal Life” is Observed by the Lord God.
* God Keeps Books / Records / Accounts of Mortal mens … Beliefs, Behaviors, Acts, Works!!
* Gods Books / Records ARE THE EVIDENCE…(Kept IN Heaven)…That which Shall Be Openly Revealed on Judgement Day…
EVIDENCE…which will Reveal a mans …Positive or Negative Consequence for that mans Judgement!

No one SAID… Jesus “Came” To “Give” Rewards…
You were told Point Blanc..
Jesus Gives Rewards When He RETURNS

Don’t you Know the difference Between…
Came and Return?

You were told, Shown in Scripture…

I don't come on here and type away because we might lose a REWARD.

You apparently Have Zero Interest in Gods Offered Blessings of Rewards…. or Know WHAT they are For, or Know WHEN they are Given…
Or Know it was the Lord God Who…stated the Directive For men to store up their Treasures IN Heaven…and Jesus Bringing His Rewards With Him when He Returns.

Obviously you are unknowing…God CAN bE Glorified by mens Works THAT DO Glorify Him.
God wants men to Glorify Him before men.
God PAYS His Debt of Gratitude TO men “With Rewards”… who have Glorified God… and God DOES Not Give a Reward to men Who Works… Did Not Glorify God.

God does not take away a mans “Already Given Gift of Salvation”…. Because the man Failed to Glorify God.
God Plainly… withholds Blessing that Man with “Rewards “the man could have had… IF he had Glorified God”

Secondly, aside from your Failure to Understand “Rewards”… (That God WANTS men to Have…and WHY)…

you also Fail to Understand…
WHEN, HOW, WHY… Salvation IS Given.
WHEN, HOW, WHY…Salvation Can be Lost,
WHEN, WHY …Salvation CAN NOT be Lost…
and think yourself qualified to debate those points…
Your posts reveal you are not.

Your failures of comprehension are NOT a secret phenomenon.
You are smack in the Majority…of misguided Christians.

You spoke about what Catholics teach…
You spoke about what Commentators teach..
You spoke about using your Mind …

* None of that IS the WAY God teaches for a man to Understand Scripture.

* You think a man CAN RECEIVE Gods Gift of Salvation… and THEN Lose his Gift of Salvation…
* Where in All of Scripture is That Taught?
* Where in All of Scripture is it Taught that Gods Power IN a man IS Too Weak, too powerless to Keep that mans Soul Saved?

No one can hear, read, learn, study, understand FOR you.

 

[Taken]

How do we know if we're saved?

How? More-so WHY…
Who knows a man’s own Truth in his spirit in his heart?
The man AND the All knowing Lord God.

So Who Knows… Why, When, How an individual calls on Jesus’ name and Confessed Belief??
(same individual and the Lord God)

How many…paraded to an Altar call, before witnesses…
* to make mommy happy?
* to make daddy proud?
* to get daddy’s promise of him to pay for college, a car, an apartment…if and when the kid “went for an altar call”?
* to get approval to date another’s dads child?
* to get approval from business prospects in the community?
* to have Access to Church records, funds, opportunity for embezzlement?
* Community…(resume’ / accolades) Clout, instant assumed Trustworthiness?

People know in their own spirit, in their own heart… what and when and why…they parade before witnesses of men…
And so does God.

Men can fool men, Yet they can Not fool God.

Ever heard a person say… they WERE Saved, Even participated in a Water Baptism… But…Never Believed. OR now no longer Believe?

They concocted a Lie.
They were Never Saved.
Going through a ritual.. Confessing a Lie… does not Fool the Lord God.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Treeline]

Who told you monks do no works?

Do you understand what works are?
Do you think it means going to work in an office from 9 to 5?

Jesus said - "The work God requires is to believe in the one he has sent" (John 6:28)
So full marks to monks for shutting themselves away from the distractions of the world in order to get closer to God.
At the other extreme are worldly workaholics who are work-obsessed.
For example my late dad was a workaholic, he once said to my mother "That shoe factory's my life" and he wanted me to be like him.
When I left school he used to hammer on my bedroom door at the crack of dawn yelling "Get out of bed and look for a job, they're crying out for people at the glue factory", but I thought "Oh stick it" and turned over and went back to sleep because i didn't feel it was my calling.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Chuckle.



Uh huh….
He “does”.
What you Harped on repeatedly is saying, “He didn’t come to give rewards.”

What you Repeatedly FAIL to UNDERSTAND
IS:
* Mans “mortal Life” is Observed by the Lord God.
* God Keeps Books / Records / Accounts of Mortal mens … Beliefs, Behaviors, Acts, Works!!
* Gods Books / Records ARE THE EVIDENCE…(Kept IN Heaven)…That which Shall Be Openly Revealed on Judgement Day…
EVIDENCE…which will Reveal a mans …Positive or Negative Consequence for that mans Judgement!

No one SAID… Jesus “Came” To “Give” Rewards…
You were told Point Blanc..
Jesus Gives Rewards When He RETURNS

Don’t you Know the difference Between…
Came and Return?

You were told, Shown in Scripture…



You apparently Have Zero Interest in Gods Offered Blessings of Rewards…. or Know WHAT they are For, or Know WHEN they are Given…
Or Know it was the Lord God Who…stated the Directive For men to store up their Treasures IN Heaven…and Jesus Bringing His Rewards With Him when He Returns.

Obviously you are unknowing…God CAN bE Glorified by mens Works THAT DO Glorify Him.
God wants men to Glorify Him before men.
God PAYS His Debt of Gratitude TO men “With Rewards”… who have Glorified God… and God DOES Not Give a Reward to men Who Works… Did Not Glorify God.

God does not take away a mans “Already Given Gift of Salvation”…. Because the man Failed to Glorify God.
God Plainly… withholds Blessing that Man with “Rewards “the man could have had… IF he had Glorified God”

Secondly, aside from your Failure to Understand “Rewards”… (That God WANTS men to Have…and WHY)…

you also Fail to Understand…
WHEN, HOW, WHY… Salvation IS Given.
WHEN, HOW, WHY…Salvation Can be Lost,
WHEN, WHY …Salvation CAN NOT be Lost…
and think yourself qualified to debate those points…
Your posts reveal you are not.

Your failures of comprehension are NOT a secret phenomenon.
You are smack in the Majority…of misguided Christians.

You spoke about what Catholics teach…
You spoke about what Commentators teach..
You spoke about using your Mind …

* None of that IS the WAY God teaches for a man to Understand Scripture.

* You think a man CAN RECEIVE Gods Gift of Salvation… and THEN Lose his Gift of Salvation…
* Where in All of Scripture is That Taught?
* Where in All of Scripture is it Taught that Gods Power IN a man IS Too Weak, too powerless to Keep that mans Soul Saved?

No one can hear, read, learn, study, understand FOR you.

Hi taken, Could you explain the following to me, I really want to know what you think.

WHEN, HOW, WHY… Salvation IS Given.
WHEN, HOW, WHY…Salvation Can be Lost,
WHEN, WHY …Salvation CAN NOT be Lost…

if you could add a few verses it would be great. Thanks.

 

[Treeline]

I'm puzzled, baptists go around with big smiles because they think baptism has saved them forever, are they right?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Post #2,024:

Ronald,

How do you exegesis these two passages: ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

7 to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give eternal life;

Curious Mary

PS (Debunking "faith alone")
James 2:14-26 (faith without works is dead)
Acts 2: 38/Mark 16:16 (repent and be baptized and you will be saved)
1 Peter 3:21 (baptism now saves you)
Mathew 25 (if you don't do good deeds he will send you to eternal fire)
Romans 10:9 (profess with your mouth and you will be saved)
John 5 (those who have done good go the resurrection of life)

OK.

The MAtthew Passage is written specifically about life during the 70th week of Daniel aka the Tribulation. That is the entire context of it.

During that time those who do not help the 144,000 and other believers are not saved for they have received the mark and are under the delusion god sends on the earth

2 Thessalonians 2:10-13
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. ...

Remember we are required to keep verses in their immediate context in hopes of gaining the proper understanding.

Faith without works is dead. Saving faith produces good works

Ephesians 2:8-10

King James Version

​

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Teh good works are the result of our being saved and not make us saved or keep us saved. A believer will produce good works.

As for Baptism- it does not save. for the gospel verse and acts- remember this is a time of transition from law to grace and this was preached to jews.

As for Peter you excluded the most important part of the verse:

1 Peter 3:21

King James Version

​

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Baptism is a symbol (figure). It is an outward manifestation of an already existing inward reality (the baptism of the Holy Spirit which produces that good conscience

Romans 10:9 You got this right.

If we profess Jesus is Lord (for as it is written no one can Jesus is Lord except through the Holy Spirit) and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead- you will be saved.

As for John 5:

Look at the context to know what the good is!

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

See Jesus defines who has eternal life- those who hear and believe.

Those who do evil hear but do not believe.

I think the problem is you do not understand the extent of what biblical faith is and does!

You rturn to exegete my verses

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Intercession is doing ANYTHING on behalf of another.

In Rev. 5:8 – the Elders in Heaven are taking our prayers to God.

redefining the term now you are.

no they are merely incense poured to God. god already heard those prayers.

No – “Catholic Church” with a capital C.

We see in the Letter to the Smyrnaeans at the beginning of the 2nd century – while the Apostle John was STILL alive, his disciple, Ignatius of Antioch wrote about the “Catholic Church”. A in that same century, we read the document, The Martyrdom of Polycarp:
“When finally he concluded his prayer, after remembering all who had at any time come his way – small folk and great folk, distinguished and undistinguished, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world – the time for departure came. So they placed him on an ass, and brought him into the city on a great Sabbath.”

You should learn grammar. The greeks did not capitalize letters. The manuscripts were either all uncial or all caps.

No – TRUE Reformation comes from within. By the 16th century – there were definitely some problems with Church hierarchy. There will ALWAYS be problems when humans are involved with anything.

And the church refused and threw out all the reformers who souoght to set Romanism back on a biblical course instead of welcoming the reforms.

There absolutely WAS a centralized Church headquartered in Rome – established by Peter and Paul.

This is attested to by the Early Church Fathers. Men like Irenaeus, Dionysius of Corinth, Tertullian, Lactantius and many others.

These were much later mid to the end of the second century. all churches were not submitted to Rome at this time.

If by “Romanism”, you mean, the Catholic Church – explain which Sacred Traditions “contradict” the Scriptures.

By the way – the Canon of Scripture is a Sacred Tradition because the list of Books that belong in the Bible are NOT listed in the Bible . .

They are not listed- because they are the bible.

But to explain all the "traditions" would take pages. Here are but a few

Immaculate conception of Mary
Perpetual virginity of Mary
Bodily assumption of Mary
Mary Queen of Heaven
Mary as co-redemptrix and co-mediatrix.
purgatory
limbo
celibacy

 

[LoveYeshua]

I'm puzzled, baptists go around with big smiles because they think baptism has saved them forever, are they right?

no

 

[Treeline]

Another thing that puzzles me is why catholics pray to Mary.
When Jesus's disciples asked him how they should pray, he replied with this- "Our Father which art in heaven...", he didn't say "Pray to my mum" did he?

 

[LoveYeshua]

Another thing that puzzles me is why catholics pray to Mary.
When Jesus's disciples asked him how they should pray, he replied with this- "Our Father which art in heaven...", he didn't say "Pray to my mum" did he?

the words of Jesus the authority on everything did tell us to pray to the father you are right, never in the bible is it asked to pray to anyone else but God the father himself.

Blessings.

 

[Behold]

Another thing that puzzles me is why catholics pray to Mary.
When Jesus's disciples asked him how they should pray, he replied with this- "Our Father which art in heaven...", he didn't say "Pray to my mum" did he?

The MaryCult is built on 4 major Lies.

1.) Mary hears us and helps us............. (She doesn't).

2.) Peter is the 1st Pope.........(He isnt)

3.) Never mind the Bible, we have "church fathers" who have all the answers, (tho none of their made up theology is found in a Bible.)

4.) "Baptismal Regeneration"......."water washes away our sin"............(It can't).
-
-

 

[nedsk]

So you think (believe) because some priest decided to organize a Roman Catholic Eucharist on a specific date and time Jesus is obliged to show up at that date and time?

When two or more are gathered in his name.... And besides Jesus said do this in remembereance of me.

And Gods also not obligated to grant you salvation just because you parroted the magic incantation. That was the single most stupid comment I've seen from someone in a long time.

 

[nedsk]

He tells us in the verses what the tradition he is speaking of and when it was spoken in word (which ends up being written down for us in this very epistle itself)

2Thes 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught,(in person) whether by word, or our epistle.

Here it is speaking more about a patern of behavior (which was set forth for them) and having nothing to do with "the ringing of bells" sort of things

2 Thes 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

This is speaking of any brother that "walketh disorderly", and "not after the tradition" which was already received of them.

This has to do with following an example set by Paul and his companions (who sets themselves out as their example when he/they were actually with them) which they are not (now being away, See 2 Thes 3:10)

As he goes on to say

2 Thes 3:7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you

There it is. This is speaking of a walk, whether such a one "walketh orderly" (as did Paul) versus such a one that 'walketh disorderly" (as certain they ought to withdrawl themselves from).

So this here has to do with ones behavior, which is after the tradition they received of them, concerning an orderly walk (over a disorderly one)

Paul continues, getting more specific in the next verse

2 Thes 3:10 For even WHEN we were with you, **THIS** we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

What he commanded them in word (when he was actually with them) is now written in this epistle also (because he is now away from them writing this very epistle). See next verse

2 Thes 3:11 For "we hear" (being away from them now) that there are some which "walk among you" disorderly, "working not at all", but "are busybodies".

So again, these are those who are "walking disorderly" and "not after the tradition" they received of them when they were with them

And TO THEM that "ARE SUCH" (who are THE SAME walking disorderly among them) not after the tradition they received of Paul gives a command

2 Thes 3:12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that "with quietness they work, and eat their own bread."

And Paul ends it here with

2 Thes 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by "this epistle", note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

2 Thes 3:15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

This tradition is one after a manner of behavior, and what not to do. It pretty much sums up what to do if a brother is a leech (not working at all, eating others bread, and being busybodies) and these are they whom the church is instructed not have company with so he might feel ashamed, but dont treat him as an enemy.

That might not be the kind of thing you typically think of when you think "tradition". But what he told them in word (in person) he is (now) telling them the same in his epistle (as he refers back to the time he told them the same thing in person) and has written it down.

Show where Paul says "don't ring the bells". I'll wait here

 

[nedsk]

Actually, biblically it means teachings.

Paradiosis

2Th 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

1. Ngiving up, giving over
   1. the act of giving up
   2. the surrender of cities
2. a giving over which is done by word of mouth or in writing, i.e. tradition by instruction, narrative, precept, etc.
   1. objectively, that which is delivered, the substance of a teaching
   2. of the body of precepts, esp. ritual, which in the opinion of the later Jews were orally delivered by Moses and orally transmitted in unbroken succession to subsequent generations, which precepts, both illustrating and expanding the written law, as they did were to be obeyed with equal reverence

So Paul is speaking of his teachings he passed on to them. not cultural things.

You need Bible citations for 1 and 2

 

[nedsk]

So wrong. The bible came from god as He inspired the authors to speak and write it! they were in the church but the church did not create the bible-God did!

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in

2 Peter 1:19-21​

​

King James Version​

​

​

19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
But there was a canon- though not codified. It was the collective letters and gospels written down and copied and passed from church to church.

Many of Romanisms oral traditions do!

And sorry infant baptism is not even implied in any of those verses. there is no hint of Baptism except for 1 Cor. 1. and a cursory understanding of the culture and history would have let you know that people counted in the household were all of age (teens andabove)

Right from God though the church he established on the rock of Peter. Only one church can even begin to trace it's history back to Peter and it sure as heck isn't whatever "church" you might go to.

 

[Behold]

And Gods also not obligated to grant you salvation just because you parroted the magic incantation.

God never rejects faith in Christ.