The Two Witnesses Came and Went Thousands of Years Ago

[ScottA]

I said your question was flawed. So I gave no answer to your flawed question.

John 14:19 is not referring to Jesus's return as is found in Matthew 24:30.

John 14:19 is that Jesus would soon be crucified, and the world, them of Jesus's day, would not see him when he comes back to life from the grave. But Jesus did appear to the disciples after his resurrection that they would believe and trust in Him to have eternal life.

Strong delusion...explaining it all away.

 

[David in NJ]

How are the 'monthly fruits' growing on the Tree if Life fertilized? Go ask an adult if you have trouble. Here, I will show you:



The FATHER is 'emanating a fluid' from his body to fertilize the 'fruits' inside of his BRIDE. Get it? Conception?

Abraham and Sarah? Does that ring a bell?

The Father has loins. Yep, of course he does. How can he not if he is a Father? What is in his loins? Abraham's Seed!!!



Rock = Testicles = Abraham
Pit = Womb = Sarah

Euphemism! Meat of the Word.

Since the Jerusalem Above is the Mother of all Believers then the Jerusalem below is the LOCATION of where the Blood of the prophets was spilled.

Revelation gives us a earthbound location for the Two Witnesses = Jerusalem on earth = Symbolically called Egypt and Sodom

 

[quietthinker]

The Two Witnesses Came and Went Thousands of Years Ago​

In The Godhead we have The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. Any two witness to the other two.
When one is familiar with the scriptures it is seen repeatedly in past, present continuous format.
Killing the two witnesses as referenced in Revelation 11:7 is about the rejection of the clearest unmitigated witness God has given of himself in Jesus.

 

[Bladerunner]

This was not a bowl of wrath to come, but a revelation of what occurred before the foundation of the world, first made manifest in the garden of Eden story of original sin as "in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

The Bible tells us nothing of the conditions prior to Gen 1:2. Adam did die twice that day! He brought death on all mankind including himself and He died at the age of 930, well within the 1000 years of God's one day. (2Pe 3:8)

 

[ScottA]

The Bible tells us nothing of the conditions prior to Gen 1:2. Adam did die twice that day! He brought death on all mankind including himself and He died at the age of 930, well within the 1000 years of God's one day. (2Pe 3:8)

True enough. But time logic, is world logic, and not the best version of "all truth" revealed by God.

Actually, Peter's reference to a day being as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day with God, was still under restraint by Him who restrains, only eluding to the truth. It is rather sayings like "I am" and "before the foundation of the world" that fully reveal the things of God in their proper timeless setting. Such is "time no longer."

In other words, for instance--which is more true, a timeless to-and-from version of describing a trip, or the same to-and-from but including a narrative telling every mile marker and side trip? The details of time are important--as they do make up the journey--but stripping away such details on a trip--say from NY to Paris (for example) obscure the greater tenets of what has occurred...and many are lost along the way by dwelling on such things as the meal choice on the plane instead of the initial purpose for the trip. If you get my meaning and follow the analogy.

So is the 2nd Bowl side trip the cause of misunderstanding, as it obscures the greater truth with picnic-like indulgences of God's word as seen through the eyes of one who was not even alive when the journey began. Such an approach, would be like having a child on a journey, then turning to the child for direction to finish it. If that child isn't Jesus, or someone He sent, things are not going to go well. So, yes, it is sad indeed...because, as limited as that type of approach to all truth is, it is most common.

 

[Douggg]

True enough. But time logic, is world logic, and not the best version of "all truth" revealed by God.

(punctuation correction) "But time logic,".....take out the comma after logic... to read "But time logic is world logic, "

God is timeless. His creation is not. Creation has a beginning.

 

[bdavidc]

No it doesn't actually. And, btw, we have been in the so called 'Great Tribulation' since 70AD:



The above verse is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem. The tribulation never ended.



As per Daniel's prophecy, one day = one year. Why do you cheat and change it to something not Biblical?



Again, the word 'Jerusalem' is not there.



3-1/2 years from around the time John the Baptist dies to the Crucifixion (middle the week):



Have you never heard that the Two Witnesses are symbolic of the Law and Prophets?

View attachment 68409​

• Law = Moses
• Prophet = Elijah/John the Baptist

To state that I am 'making it up as you go' is bearing false witness on me. Jesus and the Two Witnesses say stop your tomfoolery.

View attachment 68410​

Yep:



There was an earthquake too.



And yet the verses I quoted prove you wrong.



Meditate on what you just wrote and look in the mirror.

You are forcing the text to say what it never says. Revelation 11 reads like history-in-advance, not allegory. God says, “I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth” (Revelation 11:3). When they finish, “the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them” (11:7). Their bodies lie in the street of “the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified” (11:8). That is Jerusalem. Then “many people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half,” the world celebrates and sends gifts, God calls, “Come up hither,” they ascend in a cloud, and a great earthquake kills seven thousand, and a tenth of the city falls (11:9–13). None of that happened in the first century, and none of that fits your Law and Prophets symbol. Revelation 11: 10 calls them “these two prophets.” Prophets are people, not abstractions.

Your 70 AD claim does not match Jesus’ timeline. The “great tribulation” in Matthew 24: 21 is tied to the abomination of desolation and leads directly to cosmic signs and the visible return of the Son of Man “immediately after the tribulation of those days” with angels gathering His elect (Matthew 24:15, 29–31). That did not follow the 70 AD siege. Luke 21 speaks of Jerusalem’s fall and the “times of the Gentiles” continuing afterward (Luke 21: 20–24), but Matthew 24 pushes beyond that to the end. Daniel 12:1 connects this unique time of trouble with the resurrection, which has not yet occurred.

Your day equals year move is textless here. Scripture uses day for year only when God clearly says so, Numbers 14:34, Ezekiel 4:6. Revelation intentionally repeats the same span with different units, 1,260 days, 42 months, time, times, and half a time, across chapters 11, 12 and 13, showing a literal three and a half year period, Revelation 11:2–3, 12:6, 12:14, 13:5. If you turn the days into years in 11: 3, you must do the same in 12:6 and 13:5, which wrecks the plain structure of the book. The text never tells you to do that.

“Jerusalem is not there” is false. Revelation 11: 8 identifies the city as the place “where also our Lord was crucified.” That is Jerusalem.

Matthew 27:51–54 does not fulfill Revelation 11. At the cross there was an earthquake and some saints appeared to many after Jesus’ resurrection. Revelation 11 requires two prophets killed by the beast, unburied for three and a half days while the world watches and rejoices, then a public ascension by command from heaven, then a quake that kills seven thousand and drops a tenth of the city. Different timing, different details, different purpose.

“Law and Prophets” from Luke 16:16 is not your proof. Jesus said, “The law and the prophets were until John,” meaning the era of anticipation ended with John, and the kingdom is now preached. Revelation 11 describes two prophets who breathe fire on attackers, shut the sky so it does not rain, turn waters to blood, and strike the earth with plagues as often as they will, Revelation 11:5–6. Those are personal actions, not metaphors for ideas.

Scripture also places the beast of Revelation 11 with the future man of sin. Paul says the man of sin sits in the temple of God and is destroyed by the brightness of Christ’s coming, 2 Thessalonians 2:3–8. That did not happen in 70 AD. Daniel says in the middle of the week a ruler will stop sacrifice and bring desolation, Daniel 9:27. Jesus ties that to the end time events in Matthew 24:15–22. The pieces fit together if you let the text speak.

You are not defending the Bible, you are dodging what it says. You are taking clear words, Jerusalem, two prophets, 1,260 days, three and a half days, a tenth of the city, seven thousand dead, and swapping them with a system the passage never names. You are twisting Scripture instead of reading it the way God actually meant it. Repent of that and submit to the text as written.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Since so many believe that the Two Witnesses are still future, I will share another viewpoint that actually fits Scripture.

A good verse to begin with is Revelation 12:1:



The woman represents the carrier of the 'seed of the woman' that began in the Garden of Eden. In the context of Revelation 12:1, the woman carrying the seed at that particular moment in time was Sarah, who gives birth to Isaac. Similarly, the 'manchild' represents the carrier of Abraham's seed on the father's side.

Years pass and now the seed of the woman, through genealogy of the Israelites, flees into the wilderness of the Exodus. For 1260 years, the seed is nourished until Jesus is born. The Tabernacle in the Wilderness begins the 1260 years:



The 'place prepared' is the body of Jesus, i.e., the Tabernacle:



Again, the Israelites took care of their Messiah, baby Jesus, for 1260 years. At the same time, the Two Witnesses begin to testify. From Moses to John the Baptist, the Two Witnesses testify for 1260 years until the birth of Jesus:



All of the verses match up perfectly.

Here is a basic timeline:

• Woman on moon flees to the wilderness, i.e., the Exodus.
• Moses builds the Tabernacle in the Wilderness on day/year 1.
• The Seed of the Woman on moon is nourished for 1260 days/years until Jesus is born.
• At the same time, the Two Witnesses testify from Moses to John the Baptist for1260 days/years.
• Jesus is born on day/year 1260.
• Jesus begins ministry on day/year 1290, thirty years later.
• On day/year 1290, the Two Witnesses are killed. This would be the beginning of week 70.
• 3-1/2 days/years later, in the middle of the week, the Crucifixion takes place (Messiah is cut off).
• The Two Witnesses are raised. A great earthquake occurs.
• On day/year 1335, 45 years later, Jerusalem is destroyed.

And there you have it. The Two Witnesses already did their thing thousands of years ago.

PS: To those of you who believe you are one of the Two Witnesses, I am sorry to tell you... it aint you kid.

Nope! the 2 witnesses are still to come.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Since so many believe that the Two Witnesses are still future, I will share another viewpoint that actually fits Scripture.

A good verse to begin with is Revelation 12:1:



The woman represents the carrier of the 'seed of the woman' that began in the Garden of Eden. In the context of Revelation 12:1, the woman carrying the seed at that particular moment in time was Sarah, who gives birth to Isaac. Similarly, the 'manchild' represents the carrier of Abraham's seed on the father's side.

Years pass and now the seed of the woman, through genealogy of the Israelites, flees into the wilderness of the Exodus. For 1260 years, the seed is nourished until Jesus is born. The Tabernacle in the Wilderness begins the 1260 years:



The 'place prepared' is the body of Jesus, i.e., the Tabernacle:



Again, the Israelites took care of their Messiah, baby Jesus, for 1260 years. At the same time, the Two Witnesses begin to testify. From Moses to John the Baptist, the Two Witnesses testify for 1260 years until the birth of Jesus:



All of the verses match up perfectly.

Here is a basic timeline:

• Woman on moon flees to the wilderness, i.e., the Exodus.
• Moses builds the Tabernacle in the Wilderness on day/year 1.
• The Seed of the Woman on moon is nourished for 1260 days/years until Jesus is born.
• At the same time, the Two Witnesses testify from Moses to John the Baptist for1260 days/years.
• Jesus is born on day/year 1260.
• Jesus begins ministry on day/year 1290, thirty years later.
• On day/year 1290, the Two Witnesses are killed. This would be the beginning of week 70.
• 3-1/2 days/years later, in the middle of the week, the Crucifixion takes place (Messiah is cut off).
• The Two Witnesses are raised. A great earthquake occurs.
• On day/year 1335, 45 years later, Jerusalem is destroyed.

And there you have it. The Two Witnesses already did their thing thousands of years ago.

PS: To those of you who believe you are one of the Two Witnesses, I am sorry to tell you... it aint you kid.

The view you shared tries to explain the Two Witnesses as a past event, stretching their ministry from Moses to John the Baptist. But when we look carefully at what Revelation actually says, and at the timing of the visions, it becomes clear that this interpretation does not fit. The Two Witnesses are not behind us in history; they belong to the last days, and their testimony is part of the final great conflict before the Lord’s return. Let’s walk through why this is so.

First, Revelation 11:3 says: “And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” This is not the same as the 1260 years the Israelites wandered or lived through history, because the book of Revelation itself explains that these 1260 days are tied to the last 42 months of world history (Revelation 11:2; Revelation 13:5). These months are the time when the nations trample the holy city and when the beast rules openly. That setting is not in the days of Moses, nor in the ministry of John the Baptist, but in the closing period of this age.

Second, the text of Revelation 11 gives details that simply cannot be stretched to fit the past. It says that the witnesses have power to shut heaven so that it does not rain, to turn waters to blood, and to strike the earth with plagues as often as they desire (Revelation 11:6). Now Moses did call down plagues in Egypt, and Elijah shut up the heavens in his day, but Revelation is not describing their old works. It is speaking of these very powers being used during the 1260 days when the nations are trampling the city. This is a future display of God’s authority in the final confrontation with the beast, not something hidden in the centuries before Christ’s birth.

Third, Revelation 11:7 says, “When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.” The beast that rises from the abyss is not Herod, not Rome in the time of Christ’s birth, and not any ruler of Israel’s past. It is the same beast of Revelation 13 that rules for 42 months and deceives the nations in the end times. If the Two Witnesses were already fulfilled before Jesus was born, then this beast would have to have already risen, ruled, and been destroyed before the cross. But Revelation places the beast’s rise at the very end of the age, before Jesus returns in glory.

Fourth, the prophecy says their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city for three and a half days, and people from every tribe, tongue, and nation will see them (Revelation 11:8–9). This did not happen in the time of John the Baptist, nor in any Old Testament period. There was no global watching, no rejoicing of the nations, no three-day display of their bodies in Jerusalem before their resurrection. The detail of the whole world looking upon them fits perfectly with modern times, where instant communication makes it possible for all nations to see such an event. That alone shows this prophecy belongs to the future.

Fifth, after they rise, Revelation 11:13 says, “In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.” No such event is recorded after John the Baptist’s death, nor after the ministry of Moses, nor in the first century. Instead, this fits with the great judgments of Revelation that strike the world at the end of days, preparing for the kingdom of Christ.

The attempt to place the Two Witnesses into Israel’s long history mixes different visions together, but Revelation itself is clear. It gives an order: the measuring of the temple, the trampling of the city by nations for 42 months, the testimony of the witnesses for 1260 days, their death at the hands of the beast, their resurrection, and then the seventh trumpet announcing, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ” (Revelation 11:15). That trumpet points directly to the Second Coming. This sequence places the Two Witnesses squarely in the last days, not in the past.

Therefore, while Moses and John the Baptist were great witnesses of God in their times, they were not the fulfillment of Revelation 11. The Two Witnesses are future, chosen by God to stand as His testimony in the last 1260 days before Christ returns. Their story is tied to the rise of the beast, the judgment of the nations, and the coming of the Lord in glory.

All attempts to push this into the past fail because the details simply do not match.

 

[ScottA]

(punctuation correction) "But time logic,".....take out the comma after logic... to read "But time logic is world logic, "

God is timeless. His creation is not. Creation has a beginning.

Woe to you lawyers!

But your "His creation is not (timeless)" comment is a false statement. It is rather the "image" and "elements" that make up physical, worldly from that are not timeless; and in addition to having a beginning, it has an end. As for God's actual creation, all is eternal, even the damnation of darkness and evil.

 

[Douggg]

As for God's actual creation, all is eternal, even the damnation of darkness and evil.

All is eternal ? Then how does a person have eternal life apart from believing in Jesus's death and resurrection for atonement of one's sin ?

 

[Bladerunner]

True enough. But time logic, is world logic, and not the best version of "all truth" revealed by God.

Time and World Logic was created by man to explain the unexplainable. There is no truth in these views. Only God's Word is the truth and the light....Yet so many walk away from it.

Actually, Peter's reference to a day being as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day with God, was still under restraint by Him who restrains, only eluding to the truth. It is rather sayings like "I am" and "before the foundation of the world" that fully reveal the things of God in their proper timeless setting. Such is "time no longer."

the thousand years are not God's years. He is beyond time...there is no beginning and there is no end...Where we here on earth have an beginning and an end. One of our days, God counts as a thousand years. This makes understanding the words "soon, near, at hand" understandable..While it has been 2000+ years since the birth of Christ, He would consider it only two of our days.

In other words, for instance--which is more true, a timeless to-and-from version of describing a trip, or the same to-and-from but including a narrative telling every mile marker and side trip? The details of time are important--as they do make up the journey--but stripping away such details on a trip--say from NY to Paris (for example) obscure the greater tenets of what has occurred...and many are lost along the way by dwelling on such things as the meal choice on the plane instead of the initial purpose for the trip. If you get my meaning and follow the analogy.

The Bible gives man a time on earth which none of us know. Our journey here is just that, a short time in which many of us become closer to our Lord Creator..

So is the 2nd Bowl side trip the cause of misunderstanding, as it obscures the greater truth with picnic-like indulgences of God's word as seen through the eyes of one who was not even alive when the journey began. Such an approach, would be like having a child on a journey, then turning to the child for direction to finish it. If that child isn't Jesus, or someone He sent, things are not going to go well. So, yes, it is sad indeed...because, as limited as that type of approach to all truth is, it is most common.

In the Gospel of John, a child can read it and walk away with a love for Jesus Christ. While at the same time, one can endlessly dive deep into this Gospel many years of study. God's Word is simply stunning. He tells us the end from the beginning, all in the very first word of Genesis.1:1, "In the Beginning", Bereshit

 

[quietthinker]

All is eternal ? Then how does a person have eternal life apart from believing in Jesus's death and resurrection for atonement of one's sin ?

The Patriarchs never heard of Jesus nevertheless Job comments of hope, (Job 19:25-27) 'I know that my redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand on the earth. And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; I myself will see him with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!

 

[Douggg]

The Patriarchs never heard of Jesus nevertheless Job comments of hope, (Job 19:25-27) 'I know that my redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand on the earth. And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; I myself will see him with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!

Yes, the Patriarchs had hope of being redeemed.

While Jesus's body lay dead in the tomb, His soul went to the place of the dead and preached to the souls there who had died in the past. I am sure that Jesus preached the gospel message, and set the souls free, redeeming their souls, to be taken to heaven when He went to heaven, leading captivity captive, Ephesians 4:7-10.

When we believe upon Jesus, our souls are redeemed, born again. We now await the redemption of our bodies in the resurrection/rapture. The time is near. Look up! Lift up our heads. Our redemption draws nigh. Thank God, day and night. Praise His Holy Name !

 

[Davy]

The whole Thread Topic is about FALSEHOOD.

The Patriarchs never heard of Jesus nevertheless Job comments of hope, (Job 19:25-27) 'I know that my redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand on the earth. And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; I myself will see him with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!

Funny, since Jesus said the following about Abraham's day...

John 8:56-59
56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was glad."

57 Then said the Jews unto Him, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast Thou seen Abraham?"

58 Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

59 Then took they up stones to cast at Him: but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
KJV

 

[ScottA]

All is eternal ? Then how does a person have eternal life apart from believing in Jesus's death and resurrection for atonement of one's sin ?

You quoted me answering already: in damnation, which is also eternal--not eternal life as in Christ, but a living hell.

 

[Douggg]

You quoted me answering already: in damnation, which is also eternal--not eternal life as in Christ, but a living hell.

Scott, you need be more specific and clear in your communications, when you post.

When you say "All (of God's creation) is eternal", you need to clarify with something like "All persons of God's creation are eternal - in that they will end up spending eternity in a state of having eternal life or in a state of having eternal death."

 

[ScottA]

the thousand years are not God's years. He is beyond time...there is no beginning and there is no end...Where we here on earth have an beginning and an end. One of our days, God counts as a thousand years. This makes understanding the words "soon, near, at hand" understandable..While it has been 2000+ years since the birth of Christ, He would consider it only two of our days.

Again, that 1=1000 day explanation was still under the restraint of times--it's time-based, not eternity vs. time based. In other words, it was just a baby step in the direction of rightly dividing what is of God and what is of the world--just an introduction to the renewing of the mind to think differently than the thinking of men and the world.

Which, then, also makes the soon = 2,000 years explanation not the actual truth, but rather a rationale that seemed good for a time--until the fulness of time and until the restraint was taken away. That time has just recently come about, and yet the soon/2000 year rationale is not recent, and therefore in error, error under restraint.

 

[Douggg]

Again, that 1=1000 day explanation was still under the restraint of times--it's time-based, not eternity vs. time based.

I think that what Peter was saying in 2Peter3:8-9 is that God is not bound by the constraint of time, in His desire that all should turn to Jesus and receive eternal life.

The definition of eternity is - infinite or unending time.

 

[ScottA]

Scott, you need be more specific and clear in your communications, when you post.

When you say "All (of God's creation) is eternal", you need to clarify with something like "All persons of God's creation are eternal - in that they will end up spending eternity in a state of having eternal life or in a state of having eternal death."

That might be nice, perhaps necessary for some, but only if taken out of context of the greater conversation. Perhaps you should not presume to alter punctuation, thereby altering comprehension.