DID THE OLD TESTAMENT PROPHETS SPEAK OF THE MYSTERY?

[Doug]

[Luke 1:70 KJV] 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

[Romans 16:25 KJV] 25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

The prophets spoke since the world began, but could not have spoken of the mystery because it was kept secret since the world began. The mystery could not have been spoken of, and at the same time be kept secret.

Christ Jesus only revealed the secret mystery to Paul.

 

[Muna]

Hosea tells us that God has spoken by the prophets in divers manners, for example here it says

Hosea 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

Abraham himself was a prophet (Gen 20:7) and so Abraham's things (such as Sarah and Hagar for example) Paul called an allegory (Gal 4:24) in respects to the two covenants. And so he would be comparing spiritual things with spiritual 1 Cr 2:13 as the law is spiritual.

Going back even further to Adam for instance, He is the figure of him who was to come (Rom 5:14) and so as with Adam so also with Eve, and the two becoming one flesh (Genesis 2:24) Paul wrote was "a great mystery" in Ephes 5:32 which spake of Christ and the church.

And as Adam so also with Melchisedec who was made like unto the Son of God in Hebrews 7:3 So that after the very similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest Heb 7:15 (who brought forth the bread and the wine (Genesis 14:18) which again points to Jesus Christ Psalm 110:4 Theres quite a few, the law having shadow of Hebews 10:1 the good things to come not the very image of things.

Do you think it could be possible that God could have declared something by the prophets but they might not have seen or understood the things? For example

Daniel 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

Or similarly, as delared by them concerning the mystery of God here (as by them)

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

See what I mean? Or Am I not understanding what you might be talking about.

 

[KUWN]

[Luke 1:70 KJV] 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

[Romans 16:25 KJV] 25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

The prophets spoke since the world began, but could not have spoken of the mystery because it was kept secret since the world began. The mystery could not have been spoken of, and at the same time be kept secret.

Christ Jesus only revealed the secret mystery to Paul.

The Mystery is none other than the Church Age.

 

[ScottA]

[Luke 1:70 KJV] 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

[Romans 16:25 KJV] 25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

The prophets spoke since the world began, but could not have spoken of the mystery because it was kept secret since the world began. The mystery could not have been spoken of, and at the same time be kept secret.

Christ Jesus only revealed the secret mystery to Paul.

Also to Daniel and to John, but was sealed. Even Paul said during his time "we see through the glass dimly, but then face to face", referring to a time revealed in Revelation referencing the seventh angel, "when he is about to sound." Until such a time, all truth--the mystery--would not be finished, but remain under restraint, "until He who restrains is taken out of the way."

 

[Doug]

Do you think it could be possible that God could have declared something by the prophets but they might not have seen or understood the things? For example

[Eph 3:9 KJV] 9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

I dont think so
The mystery was hidden in God so if it was given to the prophets (even if concealed in a similitude) it would no longer be hidden

[Deu 29:29 KJV] 29 The secret [things belong] unto the LORD our God: but those [things which are] revealed [belong] unto us and to our children for ever, that [we] may do all the words of this law.

The secret things belong to the Lord, so if he gave it to the prophets it would be ours, even if hidden. When its revealed it's ours. The mystery was revealed thru Paul and not before.

 

[Doug]

Or similarly, as delared by them concerning the mystery of God here (as by them)

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Good verse to bring up

First of all, if the mystery of God was declared by the prophets it could not be the mystery revealed to Paul since it was a secret.

There is more than one mystery. There is the mysteries of the kingdom/ the mystery of iniquity/ the mystery of the seven stars/ the mystery of Babylon

It is the purpose of God to bring salvation to the world. The means of God's salvation would be revealed in the progressive revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ, and His redemption.

The mystery of God culminates with Him consuming all the kingdoms of the world. It culminates with the establishment of the everlasting kingdom of the Lord, and Christ

[Rev 11:15 KJV] 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[Doug]

The Mystery is none other than the Church Age.

which church?
the church in the wilderness?
the church Paul persecuted?
the church the body of Christ?

 

[KUWN]

which church?
the church in the wilderness?
the church Paul persecuted?
the church the body of Christ?

In Acts 7:38, the "church in the wilderness" refers to the assembly of Israelites during their exodus from Egypt and journey through the wilderness under the leadership of Moses.

Last two are the same. They are what I am referring to.

 

[Jack]

which church?
the church in the wilderness?
the church Paul persecuted?
the church the body of Christ?

Certainly not Protestants or Catholics or Muslims!

 

[Muna]

[Luke 1:70 KJV] 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

[Romans 16:25 KJV] 25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Next verse

Romans 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

He includes what is now made manifest by the scriptures of the prophets (which have been since the world began) when it come to the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery,

The prophets spoke since the world began, but could not have spoken of the mystery because it was kept secret since the world began. The mystery could not have been spoken of, and at the same time be kept secret.

Christ Jesus only revealed the secret mystery to Paul.

Paul speaks of this thing being revealed to more than just himself (as a singular apostle)
but holy apostles (plurally) and prophets (plurally) by the Spirit in Ephes 3:5

Ephes 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
Ephes 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Ephes 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Ephes 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Ephes 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Ephes 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Ephes 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Ephes 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
Ephes 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Ephes 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Ephes 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Ephes 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

 

[Muna]

[Eph 3:9 KJV] 9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

I dont think so
The mystery was hidden in God so if it was given to the prophets (even if concealed in a similitude) it would no longer be hidden

[Deu 29:29 KJV] 29 The secret [things belong] unto the LORD our God: but those [things which are] revealed [belong] unto us and to our children for ever, that [we] may do all the words of this law.

The secret things belong to the Lord, so if he gave it to the prophets it would be ours, even if hidden. When its revealed it's ours. The mystery was revealed thru Paul and not before.

Jesus also speaks of the things many prophets have desired to see and have not

Luke 10:24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

But even Peter speaks of the prophets which prophesied of the grace that should come unto us (and what was revealed to them concerning those things)

1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1 Peter 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
1 Peter 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ

 

[Doug]

In Acts 7:38, the "church in the wilderness" refers to the assembly of Israelites during their exodus from Egypt and journey through the wilderness under the leadership of Moses.

Last two are the same. They are what I am referring to.

Yes the church in the wilderness was the congregation assembly of Israel

The church Paul persecuted was the believing remnant of Israel which is not the same as the church in this disposition, the body of Christ.

The church of God that Paul persecuted believed John's baptism, the preaching of Jesus and the twelve apostles. They believed the gospel of the kingdom which said the prophetic earthly kingdom in which believing Israel will reign with Christ a thousand years was at hand. They believed in the name of Jesus for eternal life. To believe in the name of Jesus was to believe he is Christ, the Son of God.
The church, the body of Christ wasnt formed yet. It wasnt formed until after Paul was converted in Acts 9.

 

[Doug]

Certainly not Protestants or Catholics or Muslims!

the church in the wilderness was the congregation assembly of Israel

The church Paul persecuted was the believing remnant of Israel which is not the same as the church in this disposition, the body of Christ.

The church of God that Paul persecuted believed John's baptism, the preaching of Jesus and the twelve apostles. They believed the gospel of the kingdom which said the prophetic earthly kingdom in which believing Israel will reign with Christ a thousand years was at hand. They believed in the name of Jesus for eternal life. To believe in the name of Jesus was to believe he is Christ, the Son of God.
The church, the body of Christ wasnt formed yet. It wasnt formed until after Paul was converted in Acts 9.

 

[Doug]

Romans 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

He includes what is now made manifest by the scriptures of the prophets (which have been since the world began) when it come to the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery,

[Rom 16:25-26 KJV] 25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

You are reading this passage as saying Paul's gospel and the preaching of Christ was according to the mystery which was made known by revelation and by the scriptures of the prophets

You are saying the prophets made known the mystery. This passage isnt saying that.

The correct way to read this is..................my gospel and the preaching of Christ is according to the revelation of the mystery AND by the prophets.........two different separate things...........the revelation is one....the prophets is another

Paul preached his gospel by the scriptures of the prophets who foretold his death and resurrection and by the revelation of the mystery which made known what his death and resurrection accomplished

[1Co 15:3-4 KJV] 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

 

[Doug]

Paul speaks of this thing being revealed to more than just himself (as a singular apostle)
but holy apostles (plurally) and prophets (plurally) by the Spirit in Ephes 3:5

[Eph 3:4-5 KJV] 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

There were apostles and prophets when Paul wrote this. They arent the twelve apostles. They arent the old testament prophets.

The Spirit revealed the mystery NOT Christ Jesus who personally revealed it to only Paul

It is NOW made known to the apostles and prophets.......NOW not in the past

 

[Doug]

Luke 10:24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Jesus was not talking about the mystery, but rather his death and resurrection..................[1Pe 1:11 KJV] 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

He was also talking about seeing the Son and the Father.................[Luk 10:22 KJV] 22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and [he] to whom the Son will reveal [him].

 

[Muna]

[Eph 3:4-5 KJV] 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

There were apostles and prophets when Paul wrote this. They arent the twelve apostles. They arent the old testament prophets.

The Spirit revealed the mystery NOT Christ Jesus who personally revealed it to only Paul

It is NOW made known to the apostles and prophets.......NOW not in the past

I think something could be manifested in the present that was previously witnessed by the law and prophets, for example.

Romans 3:21 BUT NOW the righteousness of God WITHOUT the law IS MANIFESTED,
BEING WITNESSED BY the law and the prophets

Similarly with Daniel, he heard and did not understand, the words were sealed till the time of the end

Daniel 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Whereas here, Jesus says, "whoso readeth, let him understand"

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

So again, He could speak by the prophets, and its meaning could not be revealed to them, and sealed

Daniel 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Then no longer sealed when the time is at hand

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

 

[Muna]

Jesus was not talking about the mystery, but rather his death and resurrection..................

In quoting Luke 10:24 there, here is the context

Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
Luke 10:23 And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:
Luke 10:24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

[1Pe 1:11 KJV] 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Right, Paul said,

Acts 26:2 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Similarly Paul says here

2 Cr 1:13 For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end;

And even here

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

He was also talking about seeing the Son and the Father.................[Luk 10:22 KJV] 22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and [he] to whom the Son will reveal [him].

Right, I think you inserted this behind another verse in your above response and I just added in the above, and here it here. So I will leave it at that.

I am probably not on the same page with you on these things, I think you had a another thread similar where we did not agree, so I didnt expect so much.

I will leave it at that though.

 

[Jack]

the church in the wilderness was the congregation assembly of Israel

The church Paul persecuted was the believing remnant of Israel which is not the same as the church in this disposition, the body of Christ.

The church of God that Paul persecuted believed John's baptism, the preaching of Jesus and the twelve apostles. They believed the gospel of the kingdom which said the prophetic earthly kingdom in which believing Israel will reign with Christ a thousand years was at hand. They believed in the name of Jesus for eternal life. To believe in the name of Jesus was to believe he is Christ, the Son of God.
The church, the body of Christ wasnt formed yet. It wasnt formed until after Paul was converted in Acts 9.

Israel is not the Church!

 

[KUWN]

Yes the church in the wilderness was the congregation assembly of Israel

The church Paul persecuted was the believing remnant of Israel which is not the same as the church in this disposition, the body of Christ.

The church of God that Paul persecuted believed John's baptism, the preaching of Jesus and the twelve apostles. They believed the gospel of the kingdom which said the prophetic earthly kingdom in which believing Israel will reign with Christ a thousand years was at hand. They believed in the name of Jesus for eternal life. To believe in the name of Jesus was to believe he is Christ, the Son of God.
The church, the body of Christ wasnt formed yet. It wasnt formed until after Paul was converted in Acts 9.

I disagree with your reply.

The Church that Paul was persecuting was made up of believers in Christ, Christians as we know them. The Church Age began at Pentecost. Peter mentioned that the Church Age began at the beginning of Pentecost. I am sure you know the passage in Acts. On Pentecost, the Holy Spirit came to indwell believers as Christ said he would. The Holy Spirit distributed gifts at Pentecost. All the requirements for the Church were present at Pentecost.

Peter and the other Apostles were preaching the Church Age Gospel before Saul became Paul.