Elijah shall come before Christ?

[Zao is life]

I do agree as far as we are informed historically concerning the timing between the two. But I used to wonder if they were speaking of the same thing in one man. Seeing both were apparently caught up (although Paul could not tell whether it was in the body or out of the body) and would both hear things which were not lawful to speak.

I used to wonder, could this be speaking of the same person because the event would fit if one were not after the other. So I can't really do that, it would just be coincidental as far as the event itself being similar but is still shown us between the both of them.

I couldn't make that work because of the supposed dates between them, but it's still cool to see John was not alone in being caught up and both were not to speak of what they heard.

You're not the only one. I still wonder if Paul was not talking about the same person, and Christian history and Bible interpretation (comparing Acts with Paul's letters, etc) has scholars wrongly having Paul dying long before he did, and some of his letters being written long before they were.​

 

[JohnDB]

As it should be. The passage speaks of something above the understanding of men, not to be revealed until...

For now I will end there, because it is obvious that you need to think it through for yourself. But since you are one to think in terms of parallels, do you not think it curious that preceding knowledge of the return of Christ, that there would be similarities to the denials of those supposedly in the know before His first appearing?

I understand that you are wanting to cut it off....
But
I just want to add that there is a theme with the actions of God throughout scripture....

Moses was judgment
Joshua was blessing

David was judgment
Solomon was blessing

Elijah was judgment
Elisha was blessing.

John the Baptist was judgment
Jesus was blessing.

First comes judgment then comes blessing.....its one of those underlying themes in scriptures that has been lost in today's hermeneutics.
But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist even to this day.

 

[Davy]

Matthew 17:
10. And His disciples asked Him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elijah must first come?
11. And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elijah truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12. But I say unto you, That Elijah has come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13. Then the disciples understood that He spoke unto them of John the Baptist.

Friends, what am i missing here, isn't it written Elijah shall come first and not John the Baptist?

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

Jesus was showing that John the Baptist only came in the 'office'... of Elijah:

Matt 11:14
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
KJV

The following is for when Jesus' future 2nd coming happens, just prior one will like a voice crying in the desert, but it won't be Elijah, but again one in the 'office' of Elijah. Why?

Isa 40:1-5
40 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD's hand double for all her sins.
3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, 'Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.'
4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
KJV

Those above event in 'red' did not happen when John the Baptist proclaimed that prepare the way of The LORD. It will happen when the next chosen prophet by God in the role of Elijah will come just prior to Christ's future return. Then those earth changes will literally happen on that day of Christ's coming to earth to take reign over all nations and peoples.

Because Elijah was taken and transfigured. Some try to claim that Elijah will be one of God's "two witnesses" of Rev.11 at the end, along with Moses, because of the event at the mount of transfiguration when Elijah and Moses appeared transfigured with Christ speaking to them. Yet Moses died and was buried (Jude 9). And Hebrews 9:27 declares that we die only once. Remember the "two witnesses" are to be killed in Jerusalem at the end.

 

[Zao is life]

I do agree as far as we are informed historically concerning the timing between the two. But I used to wonder if they were speaking of the same thing in one man. Seeing both were apparently caught up (although Paul could not tell whether it was in the body or out of the body) and would both hear things which were not lawful to speak.

I used to wonder, could this be speaking of the same person because the event would fit if one were not after the other. So I can't really do that, it would just be coincidental as far as the event itself being similar but is still shown us between the both of them.

I couldn't make that work because of the supposed dates between them, but it's still cool to see John was not alone in being caught up and both were not to speak of what they heard.

When it comes to prophets of today who imply by the things they say (or state indirectly) that they were "caught up" and what they "saw" (or say they saw), then cool can be very dangerous IMO, because cool can be a red fiery dragon's breath in disguise.

For example, compare this passage with an assertion that follows it:

"And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity.."
'iniquity' - o anomia - the lawlessness -

".. doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way .."
'taken out of the way' - ginomai ek mesos - "come to pass out of the midst" (of the lawlessness).

".. And then shall that Wicked.."
- anomos - lawless (one)

".. be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan .."

Compare the above passage with assertions like this:

What is missing, is that there is a full cast of characters acting in the revelation of things that actually occurred before the foundation of the world. All of whom have been under restraint and only eluding to "all truth"--even Christ, "until He who restrains is taken out of the way."

This is that time foretold when "the mystery of God would be finished as He declared to His servants the prophets", and it includes many corrections of things once believed, even allowed for a time--until the times are fulfilled.

Whenever Scott has said "this is that time foretold" when speaking to me, he was claiming to be the one who was caught up and saw the mysteries and knows what the seven thunders uttered.

The following assertion was made in response to @marks statement - which I also quote afterward:

This specifically refers to our Father God, or Satan.

The coming of Christ diverted the complete annihilation of this world, including all who sin.

which was said in response to this:

And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the sons, and the heart of the sons to their fathers, that I not come and strike the earth with utter destruction.

All marks was saying about this was that:

My thinking is that Elijah - either the man, or someone with his "spirit and power" as was John the baptist - will be with those Israelites who fled to the wilderness, preparing a people for their Groom.

Much love!

So when someone claims to be a prophet - that's one thing. But when someone claims not only to be a prophet, but implies to have been caught up to heaven and specifically sent by God for our time to reveal to us (if we pay for the hidden mystery by buying his book) what the seven thunders uttered, then cool can be a fiery dragon's breath, IMO.

Sorry to harp on that, but I went back to it not because I think you have been influenced, but for the sake of others who read this stuff and might be influenced. Personally of course I did not fall for it and decided not to spend money "to obtain the rest of the mystery" (which remains "hidden" until you buy the book).​

 

[Muna]

You're not the only one. I still wonder if Paul was not talking about the same person, and Christian history and Bible interpretation (comparing Acts with Paul's letters, etc) has scholars wrongly having Paul dying long before he did, and some of his letters being written long before they were.​

But when it comes to prophets of today who imply by the things they say (or state indirectly) that they were "caught up" and what they "saw" (or say they saw), then cool can be very dangerous IMO, because cool can be a red fiery dragon's breath in disguise.

For example, compare this passage with an assertion that follows it:

"And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity.."
'iniquity' - o anomia - the lawlessness -

".. doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way .."
'taken out of the way' - ginomai ek mesos - "come to pass out of the midst" (of the lawlessness).

".. And then shall that Wicked.."
- anomos - lawless (one)

".. be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan .."

Compare the above passage with assertions like this:



Whenever Scott has said "this is that time foretold" when speaking to me, he was claiming to be the one who was caught up and saw the mysteries and knows what the seven thunders uttered.

The following assertion was made in response to @marks statement - which I also quote afterward:



which was said in response to this:



All marks was saying about this was that:



So when someone claims to be a prophet - that's one thing. But when someone claims not only to be a prophet, but implies to have been caught up to heaven and specifically sent by God for our time to reveal to us (if we pay for the hidden mystery by buying his book) what the seven thunders uttered, then cool can be a fiery dragon's breath, IMO.

I think it was "cool" (for me, meaning "what an awesome experience") that is conveyed to us that both John was priviledged to experience and Paul also, how is that somehow a firey dragon's breath thing?

Paul even said,

2 Cr 12:6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.

What anyone else tells me about their own experiences rarely phase me, please do not mistake me as someone who would ever chase others down over their own preofessed experiences. I tend to be one who disbelieves much of what others speak of as far as their own experiences.

However, as far as prophets go, I wasn't even speaking along the lines of outside the pictures of scriptures go. I was looking at what marks pointed out was the last prophet, and Jesus (who come after John) is also considered a prophet, who said, he would likewise send even more prophets. And so as the law and prophets prophesied until John, he tells this other John in Rev 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

So I am making comparisons in the word between places within it not having anything to do with people who call themselves prophets and want us to follow after them and all their dreams and visions.

I could care less about that, its not even something I take seriously, or rather am called to as far as my own call to follow anyone in those things.

 

[Zao is life]

I understand that you are wanting to cut it off....
But
I just want to add that there is a theme with the actions of God throughout scripture....

Moses was judgment
Joshua was blessing

David was judgment
Solomon was blessing

Elijah was judgment
Elisha was blessing.

John the Baptist was judgment
Jesus was blessing.

First comes judgment then comes blessing.....its one of those underlying themes in scriptures that has been lost in today's hermeneutics.
But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist even to this day.

You seem to be combining the wrong things IMO. David was not judgment for Israel.

Elisha cursed 42 children. Where's the blessing?

You overlook where the real patterns and themes lie in order to find themes and patterns where they are not.

Here's the real theme:

"Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be after this." (Revelation 1:19).

The things they had seen was John the Baptist, who had pointed them to Jesus.

The things which were (at the time), was Christ talking to Moses and Elijah, and then answering their question.

The things which shall be is the first part of the reply Jesus gave:

"And answering Jesus said to them, Elijah truly shall come first and shall restore all things."

The things they had seen:

"But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but have done to him whatever they desired. Likewise also the Son of man shall suffer from them."

This: "Then His disciples understood that He spoke to them about John the Baptist"

- is related to the things which they had seen.

Even so, if Elijah truly shall come, until then what Jesus said, is a mystery - and no one should be the expert in his own mind of exactly why Jesus did not merely say, "Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but have done to him whatever they desired. Likewise also the Son of man shall suffer from them."

But Jesus juxtaposed a future-tense fulfillment with a past-tense fulfillment - and that is a pattern in the prophetic scripture of the Bible - for which there are many examples: Some of the prophecies that were talking about the coming destruction of Babylon (the things which had been) being used almost word-for-word about the destruction of Babylon the Great (the things which shall be) etc etc etc. There are many examples of this pattern.

Sorry to say but your "pattern" is forced in some of your examples, IMO - but the real biblical patterns are not - nor are they ever forced.

 

[Muna]

As it should be. The passage speaks of something above the understanding of men, not to be revealed until...

For now I will end there, because it is obvious that you need to think it through for yourself. But since you are one to think in terms of parallels, do you not think it curious that preceding knowledge of the return of Christ, that there would be similarities to the denials from those supposedly in the know before His first appearing?

I still don't even know what you are talking about here

 

[ScottA]

I understand that you are wanting to cut it off....
But
I just want to add that there is a theme with the actions of God throughout scripture....

Moses was judgment
Joshua was blessing

David was judgment
Solomon was blessing

Elijah was judgment
Elisha was blessing.

John the Baptist was judgment
Jesus was blessing.

First comes judgment then comes blessing.....its one of those underlying themes in scriptures that has been lost in today's hermeneutics.
But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist even to this day.

Not really wanting to cut it off, just wanting people to think and see for themselves--not to just repeat the errors of most of Israel, who stuck to their preconceived beliefs only be fatally wrong.

 

[ScottA]

When it comes to prophets of today who imply by the things they say (or state indirectly) that they were "caught up" and what they "saw" (or say they saw), then cool can be very dangerous IMO, because cool can be a red fiery dragon's breath in disguise.

For example, compare this passage with an assertion that follows it:

"And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity.."
'iniquity' - o anomia - the lawlessness -

".. doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way .."
'taken out of the way' - ginomai ek mesos - "come to pass out of the midst" (of the lawlessness).

".. And then shall that Wicked.."
- anomos - lawless (one)

".. be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan .."

Compare the above passage with assertions like this:



Whenever Scott has said "this is that time foretold" when speaking to me, he was claiming to be the one who was caught up and saw the mysteries and knows what the seven thunders uttered.

The following assertion was made in response to @marks statement - which I also quote afterward:



which was said in response to this:



All marks was saying about this was that:



So when someone claims to be a prophet - that's one thing. But when someone claims not only to be a prophet, but implies to have been caught up to heaven and specifically sent by God for our time to reveal to us (if we pay for the hidden mystery by buying his book) what the seven thunders uttered, then cool can be a fiery dragon's breath, IMO.

Sorry to harp on that, but I went back to it not because I think you have been influenced, but for the sake of others who read this stuff and might be influenced. Personally of course I did not fall for it and decided not to spend money "to obtain the rest of the mystery" (which remains "hidden" until you buy the book).​

Even so, you know that what you have sighted in your skepticism, includes both blessing and cursing. Where there is one the other is also present, and to be.

As for selling books, a workman is worthy of his wages...and these five are in need of "buying oil."

 

[JohnDB]

You seem to be combining the wrong things IMO. David was not judgment for Israel.

Elisha cursed 42 children. Where's the blessing?

You overlook where the real patterns and themes lie in order to find themes and patterns where they are not.

Here's the real theme:

"Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be after this." (Revelation 1:19).

The things they had seen was John the Baptist, who had pointed them to Jesus.

The things which were (at the time), was Christ talking to Moses and Elijah, and then answering their question.

The things which shall be is the first part of the reply Jesus gave:

"And answering Jesus said to them, Elijah truly shall come first and shall restore all things."

The things they had seen:

"But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but have done to him whatever they desired. Likewise also the Son of man shall suffer from them."

This: "Then His disciples understood that He spoke to them about John the Baptist"

- is related to the things which they had seen.

Even so, if Elijah truly shall come, until then what Jesus said, is a mystery - and no one should be the expert in his own mind of exactly why Jesus did not merely say, "Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but have done to him whatever they desired. Likewise also the Son of man shall suffer from them."

But Jesus juxtaposed a future-tense fulfillment with a past-tense fulfillment - and that is a pattern in the prophetic scripture of the Bible - for which there are many examples: Some of the prophecies that were talking about the coming destruction of Babylon (the things which had been) being used almost word-for-word about the destruction of Babylon the Great (the things which shall be) etc etc etc. There are many examples of this pattern.

Sorry to say but your "pattern" is forced in some of your examples, IMO - but the real biblical patterns are not - nor are they ever forced.

Sorry,
But you do not have an accurate objective view of the examples I cited.

Meaning you need to read scripture MORE.

There is no way I can relate the fullness of how these things are true in a single post.

Your explanations are not accurate either.
Elijah called down fire from Heaven and killed 500 prophets of Baal.
Elisha removed the death in the pot, cured a poisoned well, caused the jar of oil to not run out until there were no more jars to pour oil into, and raised the Shulamites Son from the dead.
The children? They were thugs who knowingly and willfully made fun of Elisha's Nazarite vow. They learned it from their parents. And a BEAR came and got them.

When someone is the agent of blessings and you literally try to bite the hand that is literally feeding you (feeding 100's from a few ears of corn) God is not amused....whatsoever.

Elisha was blessings. Elijah was judgment. How many times did Elijah call down fire from Heaven?

 

[Davy]

Even so, you know that what you have sighted in your skepticism, includes both blessing and cursing. Where there is one the other is also present, and to be.

As for selling books, a workman is worthy of his wages...and these five are in need of "buying oil."

Where's there blessing, there's also a cursing??

So God's elect are also cursed when they are blessed? or... when one of God's elect is blessed, someone else is cursed? Where's that written?

 

[Zao is life]

Sorry,
But you do not have an accurate objective view of the examples I cited.

Meaning you need to read scripture MORE.

There is no way I can relate the fullness of how these things are true in a single post.

Your explanations are not accurate either.
Elijah called down fire from Heaven and killed 500 prophets of Baal.
Elisha removed the death in the pot, cured a poisoned well, caused the jar of oil to not run out until there were no more jars to pour oil into, and raised the Shulamites Son from the dead.
The children? They were thugs who knowingly and willfully made fun of Elisha's Nazarite vow. They learned it from their parents. And a BEAR came and got them.

When someone is the agent of blessings and you literally try to bite the hand that is literally feeding you (feeding 100's from a few ears of corn) God is not amused....whatsoever.

Elisha was blessings. Elijah was judgment. How many times did Elijah call down fire from Heaven?

Davy explains it like this, though you do not understand:

Jesus was showing that John the Baptist only came in the 'office'... of Elijah:

Matt 11:14
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
KJV

The following is for when Jesus' future 2nd coming happens, just prior one will like a voice crying in the desert, but it won't be Elijah, but again one in the 'office' of Elijah. Why?

Isa 40:1-5
40 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD's hand double for all her sins.
3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, 'Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.'
4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
KJV

Those above event in 'red' did not happen when John the Baptist proclaimed that prepare the way of The LORD. It will happen when the next chosen prophet by God in the role of Elijah will come just prior to Christ's future return. Then those earth changes will literally happen on that day of Christ's coming to earth to take reign over all nations and peoples.

Because Elijah was taken and transfigured. Some try to claim that Elijah will be one of God's "two witnesses" of Rev.11 at the end, along with Moses, because of the event at the mount of transfiguration when Elijah and Moses appeared transfigured with Christ speaking to them. Yet Moses died and was buried (Jude 9). And Hebrews 9:27 declares that we die only once. Remember the "two witnesses" are to be killed in Jerusalem at the end.

Whether he come in the role of Elijah or whether he be Elijah sent back I do not know, but that's the biblical principle, which given enough reading, you would understand by now.

Your Chinese yin-yang "blessing follows cursing" examples are not biblical just because God in His mercy forgives and restores the repentant if they repent under the hand of judgment.

God has never wanted anyone to be judged, that's why Jesus was cursed for our sins (Jesus asked God to forgive them, for they do not know what they do).

 

[Fred J]

Possible the fulfillment of Malachi's prophecy:

“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.” (Mal 4:5 NKJV)

There were many similarities between Elijah and John. I don't believe that Jesus meant that John was a re-incarnation of Elijah.

You're right, i don't believe either, because John the Baptist denied that he is not Elijah.

Something like Jesus who denied He is the son of David, yet His birth biologically is from the line of David.

Probably He didn't want people to fixate their understanding on one thing, when He is also the Son of GOD.

Thank you

 

[Davy]

You're right, i don't believe either, because John the Baptist denied that he is not Elijah.

Something like Jesus who denied He is the son of David, yet His birth biologically is from the line of David.

Probably He didn't want people to fixate their understanding on one thing, when He is also the Son of GOD.

Thank you

I'm curious. Where is it written that Lord Jesus denied He is the son of David?

 

[JohnDB]

You're right, i don't believe either, because John the Baptist denied that he is not Elijah.

Something like Jesus who denied He is the son of David, yet His birth biologically is from the line of David.

Probably He didn't want people to fixate their understanding on one thing, when He is also the Son of GOD.

Thank you

Jesus never denied being the "Seed of David". He answered when He was called that and performed a miracle because of it.

Ummmm
You really need to know scriptures better than you seem to.

 

[Fred J]

Jesus never denied being the "Seed of David". He answered when He was called that and performed a miracle because of it.

Ummmm
You really need to know scriptures better than you seem to.

Quit being and reacting like a 'kid'.

Mark 12:
35. And Jesus answered and said, while He taught in the Temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David?
36. For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I makethine enemies thy footstool.
37. David therefore himself calleth Him Lord, and whence is He then his son? And the common people heard Him galdly.
38. And He said unto them in His doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces.

Looks like i have to beware of you, no thank you.

Will David meet Jesus and say, 'You are my son and I am your father'?

 

[Fred J]

I'm curious. Where is it written that Lord Jesus denied He is the son of David?

Mark 12: 37

 

[ScottA]

Where's there blessing, there's also a cursing??

So God's elect are also cursed when they are blessed? or... when one of God's elect is blessed, someone else is cursed? Where's that written?

Here for the house of Israel:

Deuteronomy 30:19​

I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live​

Here for the Church:

Matthew 16:17​

Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.​

 

[Fred J]

Friends, David Lamb's scripture quote is very clear, where Jesus Himself declared that John the Baptist is Elijah who is to come.

Luke 1:
17. And he shall go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

And John the Baptist did answer the scribes and Pharisees that He is not Elijah.

If the spirit and power of Elijah is in John, is it referring to the 'characteristic', 'zeal' and 'anointing' of Elijah is in John?

Because 'Elijah' in the Old Testament did turn the hearts of Israel back to GOD.

And the same John the Baptist is going to turn the hearts of Israel back to GOD in the New Testament.

While John himself be John the Baptist on the other hand, therefore as figuratively speaking, if you've seen 'John', you've seen 'Elijah'.

Similar to Philip with Jesus, saying. 'Lord, show us the FATHER already', and Jesus answering, 'You've been with Me all this while, if you've seen Me, you've seen the FATHER'?

Friends, does this make sense?

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

 

[ScottA]

Quit being and reacting like a 'kid'.

Mark 12:
35. And Jesus answered and said, while He taught in the Temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David?
36. For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I makethine enemies thy footstool.
37. David therefore himself calleth Him Lord, and whence is He then his son? And the common people heard Him galdly.
38. And He said unto them in His doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces.

Looks like i have to beware of you, no thank you.

Will David meet Jesus and say, 'You are my son and I am your father'?

Hi Fred,

Before they pounce on you...this passage and Jesus' question is often misunderstood--it stumped the Priests of Israel!

But the answer is, Solomon was the son of David's flesh, building a temple and a house for God of stone. But David was also blessed by God and promised a Son whose kingdom would never end--meaning, of the Spirit--as Peter confirmed, saying, "Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, “Behold, I lay in Zion, A chief cornerstone, elect, precious, And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.” --Jesus is David's son by the spirit and promise of God.