BEWARE OF THE SPIRITUALIZERS HERE

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul includes himself in “those who are alive and remain” at the coming of the Lord.

How is Paul one of those who are alive and remain if Jesus still hasn’t returned?

No, he does not include himself. When he said "we" he was speaking of the church in general and was not saying that he would necessarily be among those who are alive and remain at the time.

 

[IndianaRob]

No, he does not include himself. When he said "we" he was speaking of the church in general and was not saying that he would necessarily be among those who are alive and remain at the time.

There you go adding words to the Bible again because it doesn’t line up with your gospel.

Did you know that just a wee bit of leaven will leaven the whole lump? It does and when you carry that leaven to the next verse you taint that verse until you end up with a gospel that doesn’t even resemble the real gospel of the Bible.

 

[PS95]

I remember coming across someone who believed the rapture already happened around 70 A.D. They believe the true church was already taken up to be with the Lord and that there was no true church left presently.
I don't believe this but I found it to be sad that he subscribed to this belief because of his discouragement with American Christianity.

Hi Wynona,
They are called, Preterists. We have several on here. I don't know much about it purposefully because clearly we are not in the heavens/earth, so I don't waste my time.
I can not see how blaming American Christianity as a cause for preterism is logical. It's not new under the sun..
This was a false teaching during the apostles days-- those who were saying the resurrection was already passed.- Paul warned about it.

2 Tim 2:14-19
Remind them of these things, and solemnly exhort them in the presence of God not to dispute about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the listeners. 15Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a worker who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth. 16But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, 17and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18men who have gone astray from the truth, claiming that the resurrection has already taken place; and they are jeopardizing the faith of some. 19Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His;” and, “Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to keep away from wickedness.”

2 Thes 2
1Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6And you know what restrains him now, so that he will be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is removed. 8Then that lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will eliminate with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9that is, the one whose ]coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and false signs and wonders, 10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not accept the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.


I have never run across Jesus' resurrection was Jesus' 2nd Coming idea before. It's a type of preterism, I guess. I'm sure there are multiple variants.... like a virus...

I'm not sure how to show someone who manipulates the text. If every time he reads coming- he thinks- his own death- I don't know what to say. It's not as if he is being reasonable.
He has convinced himself. It's similar to what cults do with the scriptures. They form a belief on a single word or single verse and then twist every verse they can to fit into said belief. It's a tough thing when it happens.

Paul includes himself in “those who are alive and remain” at the coming of the Lord.

How is Paul one of those who are alive and remain if Jesus still hasn’t returned?

Paul was alive then so he worded it that way - he died expecting Jesus' return. We all do.

So.. in Acts- the angels said that Jesus would return in the same way as they saw Him go up, and you think the angels were saying that they would each see Him individually returning when they die? Do I have this right?
Coming on the clouds in glory?

You are playing word games in your own mind. When you see the word, COMING- You think of your death. You need to quit that. It's not what it says anywhere.

I guess to you we die-- go to heaven or hell- and that's that? Do I have that right? Are we in the new heavens and earth now in your mind or?

All of this happens in an instant--- not a million times over as people die--
Thes 4
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore, comfort one another with these words.


and- 1 Cor 15:49-56
Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55“O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?” 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.

“When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.” – Colossians 3:4

“While we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.” – Titus 2:13

“Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.” – 2 Timothy 4:8​

 

[Wynona]

I can not see how blaming American Christianity as a cause for preterism is logical. It's not new under the sun..

That was just the cause for the particular person I was mentioning. I doubt it's the cause for all of it.

 

[PS95]

There you go adding words to the Bible again because it doesn’t line up with your gospel.

Did you know that just a wee bit of leaven will leaven the whole lump? It does and when you carry that leaven to the next verse you taint that verse until you end up with a gospel that doesn’t even resemble the real gospel of the Bible.

You are out of line. You deny Christ' return and individualize it into a million returns .
THAT is manipulating the gospel!
Read 2Peter 3-you are denying what is in plain text. Peter isn't speaking about when people die..

3Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue just as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6through which the world at that time was destroyed by being flooded with water. 7But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly people.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.


10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

14Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found spotless and blameless by Him, at peace, 15and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which there are some things that are hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unscrupulous people and lose your own firm commitment, 18but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

 

[IndianaRob]

Paul was alive then so he worded it that way - he died expecting Jesus' return. We all do.

At what point do we determine that the words don’t really mean what they say and change them to say what the Holy Spirit should’ve inspired Paul to write?

Is it possible that Paul and the Holy Spirit knew more about the subject than you?

By believing what Paul wrote exactly as Paul wrote the words, I know why the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write the words exactly the way they are written.

You literally have no chance at understanding the Holy Spirits message there because you’re ignoring the words he inspired Paul to write.

 

[PS95]

I have no comment for you, I've added you back to my IGNORE LIST.

No offense but your posts are terribly rude 99% of the time.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There you go adding words to the Bible again because it doesn’t line up with your gospel.

Did you know that just a wee bit of leaven will leaven the whole lump? It does and when you carry that leaven to the next verse you taint that verse until you end up with a gospel that doesn’t even resemble the real gospel of the Bible.

Says the guy who is constantly adding words to the Bible to make it say what he wants it to say while believing in the heretical full preterist doctrine. How about you tell everyone again about how there are people in heaven with bodies even though Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, which means there are people without bodies present with the Lord in heaven.

The gospel of the Bible is that Jesus Christ died for our sins and was buried and then on the third day He rose again from the dead after which He was seen by over 500 people, including Paul and the twelve apostles. And whoever confesses that Jesus is Lord and believes in their heart that God raised Him from the dead will be saved and will not perish but have everlasting life.

Do you agree with this gospel? If not, then YOU are the one who does not believe in the real gospel.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

At what point do we determine that the words don’t really mean what they say and change them to say what the Holy Spirit should’ve inspired Paul to write?

Is it possible that Paul and the Holy Spirit knew more about the subject than you?

By believing what Paul wrote exactly as Paul wrote the words, I know why the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write the words exactly the way they are written.

You literally have no chance at understanding the Holy Spirits message there because you’re ignoring the words he inspired Paul to write.

You mean like how you ignore what Paul wrote in Philippians 1:21-24 and 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 where he indicated that one goes to be with the Lord after departing their body (after physically dying) at which point they are then present with the Lord and absent from the body? You contradict that by insisting that someone must have a body in order to be present with the Lord.

 

[IndianaRob]

Says the guy who is constantly adding words to the Bible to make it say what he wants it to say while believing in the heretical full preterist doctrine. How about you tell everyone again about how there are people in heaven with bodies even though Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, which means there are people without bodies present with the Lord in heaven.

The gospel of the Bible is that Jesus Christ died for our sins and was buried and then on the third day He rose again from the dead after which He was seen by over 500 people, including Paul and the twelve apostles. And whoever confesses that Jesus is Lord and believes in their heart that God raised Him from the dead will be saved and will not perish but have everlasting life.

Do you agree with this gospel? If not, then YOU are the one who does not believe in the real gospel.

I don’t agree with your gospel. I don’t agree with anyone’s gospel that doesn’t believe the words as they’re written.

 

[PS95]

At what point do we determine that the words don’t really mean what they say and change them to say what the Holy Spirit should’ve inspired Paul to write?

Is it possible that Paul and the Holy Spirit knew more about the subject than you?

By believing what Paul wrote exactly as Paul wrote the words, I know why the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write the words exactly the way they are written.

You literally have no chance at understanding the Holy Spirits message there because you’re ignoring the words he inspired Paul to write.

hey, If you get stuck there then please read the rest of the scriptures. It's not a zillion returns!! The day of the Lord-

 

[PS95]

I don’t agree with your gospel. I don’t agree with anyone’s gospel that doesn’t believe the words as they’re written.

This is exactly what the cults do. You get stuck on a verse or a word, and ignore the rest of the verses that don't work for you and just throw out your rhetoric over and over..
It's a shame. I hope you can get past this.

 

[IndianaRob]

hey, If you get stuck there then please read the rest of the scriptures. It's not a zillion returns!! The day of the Lord-

There was only one second coming and it was at the resurrection when Jesus came in all power and all glory. Jesus coming to escort his people to heaven isn’t a “repeat second coming”.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are out of line. You deny Christ' return and individualize it into a million returns .
THAT is manipulating the gospel!
Read 2Peter 3-you are denying what is in plain text. Peter isn't speaking about when people die..

3Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue just as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6through which the world at that time was destroyed by being flooded with water. 7But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly people.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.


10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

14Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found spotless and blameless by Him, at peace, 15and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which there are some things that are hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unscrupulous people and lose your own firm commitment, 18but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

Agree. It's sad that these full preterists are so blind and do not look forward to the future blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is exactly what the cults do. You get stuck on a verse or a word, and ignore the rest of the verses that don't work for you and just throw out your rhetoric over and over..
It's a shame. I hope you can get past this.

Agree. Full preterism is very cultish.

 

[PS95]

Agree. It's sad that these full preterists are so blind and do not look forward to the future blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Yes and what is even more sad is they want to try to steal our HOPE.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There was only one second coming and it was at the resurrection when Jesus came in all power and all glory. Jesus coming to escort his people to heaven isn’t a “repeat second coming”.

Where does scripture ever refer to His resurrection as the second coming? When did Jesus come from heaven in like manner that He ascended there? I guess you would see that as a third coming?

Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

 

[IndianaRob]

This is exactly what the cults do. You get stuck on a verse or a word, and ignore the rest of the verses that don't work for you and just throw out your rhetoric over and over..
It's a shame. I hope you can get past this.

The difference between me and you, other than your a jerk and I’m not, is that I believe every word exactly as written in the King James Bible and you dont.

And then you get mad at me when because I beleive that every word means what it says and says what it means.

 

[PS95]

There was only one second coming and it was at the resurrection when Jesus came in all power and all glory. Jesus coming to escort his people to heaven isn’t a “repeat second coming”.

You are calling the angels liars. And yes it is a million returns.. whether you accept that or not is up to you

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don’t agree with your gospel. I don’t agree with anyone’s gospel that doesn’t believe the words as they’re written.

Wow. The gospel I shared is straight from the Bible. You might be even more heretical than I thought. Tell me what your understanding of the gospel is.