DID THE OLD TESTAMENT PROPHETS SPEAK OF THE MYSTERY?

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I asked you twice to respond to this. I can only assume you won't or can't provide scripture to support your claim. Without scriptural support, your claim that the prophets wrote of the mysteries lacks credibility. With all respect, I think you can't show me scripture, and your claim is spurious. I hope the reason you havent responded isnt due to illness or personal reasons.

Here for the last time I ask this:
Saying the mystery of Christ is type and shadow does not prove they are speaking of the mystery of Christ......please give me some verses........for example show me in the old testament prophets where they speak about the body of Christ being a new creature.(2 Cor 5:17)......show me where the prophets say how God forgives sin.(Rom 3:25).........show me where they said Jesus would shed his blood for all not just Israel(Rom 5:9}.........show me where they say believers will be caught up in the air to be with Christ forever(1 Thes 4:17)

You say the mystery pertained to secret revelations given Paul in prison as opposed to the mystery of Christ given to the prophets to write down, even if they didnt understand what they were writing. You say the mysteries of Christ written by the prophets were revealed to Paul.
So my point is, what I asked you to show me were the scriptures in the prophets that spoke of the above mysteries......all of these mysteries were not from the prison epistles

Show me one or more scriptures as you are able to if you wish.

'But rise, and stand upon thy feet:
for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose,
to make thee a minister and a witness
both of these things which thou hast seen,
and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
(Act 26:16 )

'But I certify you, brethren,
that the gospel which was preached of me
is not after man.
For I neither received it of man,
neither was I taught it,
but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.'
(Gal 1:11-12)

Hello @Doug,

You appear to be very confused as to what I have said concerning 'The Mystery' and 'The Mystery of Christ'. The verses above show that Paul was taught by the risen Christ Himself, and was visited by Him on more than one occasion. So these mysteries are not the only revelations that He received from the Lord Jesus Christ. I prefer to just believe what is written.

'Having therefore obtained help of God,
I continue unto this day,
witnessing both to small and great,
saying none other things
than those which the prophets and Moses
did say should come:
That Christ should suffer,
and that He should be the first that should rise from the dead,
and should shew light unto The People, and to the Gentiles.'
(Act 26:22-23)

I praise God for His word, and having told you repeatedly what I believe the Bible has to say about 'The Mystery', and 'The Mystery of Christ', I see no reason why I should be subjected to this form of interrogation.

So I rest my case upon what I have already said.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Doug]

* These three questions I will seek to answer, but not now, as it is now very late here in the UK.

show me where the prophets say how God forgives sin.(Rom 3:25).........show me where they said Jesus would shed his blood for all not just Israel(Rom 5:9}.........show me where they say believers will be caught up in the air to be with Christ forever(1 Thes 4:17)

I removed 2 Cor 5:17 but I disagree because you just arbitrarily said it could not be about the body of Christ

 

[shepherdsword]

Hello @shepherdsword,

* 'The Mystery of Christ' is the subject of the Old Testament Scriptures. and quoted frequently by those to whom it was revealed in the New Testament Scriptures, i.e., the New Testament apostles and prophets.

* It is 'The Mystery' concerning the Church which is the Body of Christ, which was not the subject of any other scriptures other than those written by Paul, following his reception of the revelation of God concerning it. namely Eph. Phil. Col. 2 Tim, Titus and Phile.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

We clearly see Isaiah prophesizing about the gentile church.

 

[shepherdsword]

None of these verses speak about the church the body of Christ. They speak of Gentile salvation. That God would save the Gentiles was not a secret. What was a secret was that Gentiles along with Israel would be in the body of Christ.

Gentile Salvation IS the Church.

 

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show me where the prophets say how God forgives sin.(Rom 3:25).........show me where they said Jesus would shed his blood for all not just Israel(Rom 5:9}.........show me where they say believers will be caught up in the air to be with Christ forever(1 Thes 4:17)

I removed 2 Cor 5:17 but I disagree because you just arbitrarily said it could not be about the body of Christ

Hello @Doug,

2 Corinthians was written prior to the revelation made by God through Paul, concerning the church which is the Body of Christ, that is why I can say with assurance that it cannot refer to it in 2 Cor. 5:17.

Regarding the questions you have asked in reference to Rom. 3:25, 5:9 and 1 Thess. 4:17, I will try to provide you with the Old Testament references to the subjects they introduce, but you may have to wait for my reply, for I do not have this knowledge at my finger tips, but must search the Scriptures to find them.

You see, Doug, I believe what Paul said in Acts 26, concerning the content of his preaching during the Acts period, to be just what he says it was, namely, 'Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:' (Act 26:22) . I therefore do not require to have proof of this myself.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
our Lord and Head, seated at God's right hand
Chris

 

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1Co_5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
Col_4:5 Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time.
1Th_4:12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

Hello @Doug,

Let me express a thought I have: Into my mind came the phrase, 'them that are without', which is a phrase used by the Lord Jesus Christ in the gospels, and by Paul in the verses above, to distinguish between those of their believing company and those outside of it: and obviously there would be things that would be discussed among the believing community, in person or by epistle, that would not be shared with those who are 'without', or not of their company. When Paul spoke the words of Acts 26:22, 'Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:' This is a statement regarding Paul's witness, which would have been to those who were 'without', to whom he did indeed say 'none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come', but to those who were of the believing community to whom he wrote His epistles, his dialogue would have been wider and deeper, containing truths which were imparted to him from the risen Christ.

I hope you can see what I am trying to say, and will receive it as one believer to another, and not with antagonism. Remembering also that these are just my thoughts, and I could be wrong in my thinking. So please be kind, yes?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

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@shepherdsword,

Hello @shepherdsword,

* 'The Mystery of Christ' is the subject of the Old Testament Scriptures. and quoted frequently by those to whom it was revealed in the New Testament Scriptures, i.e., the New Testament apostles and prophets.

* It is 'The Mystery' concerning the Church which is the Body of Christ, which was not the subject of any other scriptures other than those written by Paul, following his reception of the revelation of God concerning it. namely Eph. Phil. Col. 2 Tim, Titus and Phile.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

We clearly see Isaiah prophesizing about the gentile church.

Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.

'Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another:
and the LORD hearkened, and heard it,
and a book of remembrance was written before Him
for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon His name.
And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts,
in that day when I make up my jewels;
and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked,
between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.'
(Mal 3:16-18)

Hello @shepherdsword,

This is a lovely verse, and I thank you for quoting it: but it refers to the believing community within the nation of Israel, as the address on the envelope shows in, Mal 1:1 'The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi. '

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Doug]

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

This means that by the redemption of Christ God could be just in forgiving the sins that were in the past. Israel offered sacrifice and thereby they were forgiven. How could God be just in forgiving Israel if the blood of animals could never take away sins? By the blood of Christ he can.

In Christ we are forgiven ALL sin..................[Col 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

 

[Doug]

"Mystery" is a translation of the Greek word μυστήριον [mysterion]. The word "mystery" in English doesn't accurately define what the Greek word implies as used in the Bible, as that word has been surrounded by a halo of mysticism typical of Gnosticism.

For example, although it speaks of things that hadn't been revealed in ancient times, they were later revealed. In reality, these are things that have to do with God and His purpose.

There were a few things unknown to Israelites that Christians later understood. Which one are you referring to when you mention a biblical "mystery"?

The mystery is hidden wisdom. It is things not made known in scripture. It is revealed thru Paul.
An example would be the relationship of between Christ and the church

 

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Hello @Doug,

The mystery of Israel's blindness (Rom. 11:25) is found in Isaiah 6:9-10, it was the duration of it that Paul announced in Rom. 11:25:-

'And He said, Go, and tell this people,
Hear ye indeed, but understand not;
and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy,
and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears,
and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Then said I, Lord, how long?
And He answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant,
and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
(Isa 6:9-10)

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery,
lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;
that blindness in part is happened to Israel,
until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.'
(Rom 11:25)

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[shepherdsword]

'Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another:
and the LORD hearkened, and heard it,
and a book of remembrance was written before Him
for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon His name.
And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts,
in that day when I make up my jewels;
and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked,
between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.'
(Mal 3:16-18)

Hello @shepherdsword,

This is a lovely verse, and I thank you for quoting it: but it refers to the believing community within the nation of Israel, as the address on the envelope shows in, Mal 1:1 'The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi. '

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

The Lord hears all that fear him and all of them are written in the book. You are holding the verse prisoner to a limited audience. "they that feared the Lord" includes all that fear him.

 

[Doug]

Hello @Doug,

The mystery of Israel's blindness (Rom. 11:25) is found in Isaiah 6:9-10, it was the duration of it that Paul announced in Rom. 11:25:-

'And He said, Go, and tell this people,
Hear ye indeed, but understand not;
and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy,
and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears,
and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Then said I, Lord, how long?
And He answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant,
and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
(Isa 6:9-10)

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery,
lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;
that blindness in part is happened to Israel,
until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.'
(Rom 11:25)

In Christ Jesus
Chris

This is not one of my requested verses, but I will address it

That Israel was blinded was not the mystery........the mystery was that salvation would come to Israel when the fulness of the Gentiles would come........this is not found in Isaiah 6

 

[Davy]

This means that by the redemption of Christ God could be just in forgiving the sins that were in the past. Israel offered sacrifice and thereby they were forgiven. How could God be just in forgiving Israel if the blood of animals could never take away sins? By the blood of Christ he can.

In Christ we are forgiven ALL sin..................[Col 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Sorry, but you CANNOT just try to replace that Romans 3:25 Scripture by Apostle Paul with another verse, but BOTH VERSES MUST AGREE with each other, and they do. The difference is that Paul was specific in the Romans 3:25 about WHICH sins are forgiven at first believe on Jesus on His death and resurrection. The Col.2:13 verse does NOT counter what Paul said in that Romans 3:25 verse that it is PAST SINS that are forgiven.

That Lord Jesus when He gave His disciples (and us) how to pray in Luke 11, and He included THE ASKING OF FORGIVENESS OF SINS, and even our asking forgiveness of the sins of those who sin against us, that shows our FUTURE SINS still need REPENTANCE to Him about. And that is what Apostle John is teaching in the 1 John 1 Chapter.

Thus those doctrines of men you heed have LIED to you; IF... you have not repented to Jesus Christ of sins you have committed AFTER having first believed, then those sins are still waiting to be repented of, and you will be held accountable for them at the Judgment.

 

[Doug]

Hello @Doug,

The mystery of Israel's blindness (Rom. 11:25) is found in Isaiah 6:9-10, it was the duration of it that Paul announced in Rom. 11:25:-

'And He said, Go, and tell this people,
Hear ye indeed, but understand not;
and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy,
and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears,
and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Then said I, Lord, how long?
And He answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant,
and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
(Isa 6:9-10)

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery,
lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;
that blindness in part is happened to Israel,
until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.'
(Rom 11:25)

In Christ Jesus
Chris

We have to be careful what we call a mystery
A mystery has been hidden, which means not written. It doesnt mean it has been written. but not yet revealed.
That Israel was blinded is not mystery, it is prophecy
It can be found in other passages:
[Isa 29:10 KJV] 10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
[Deu 29:4 KJV] 4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
[Isa 6:9 KJV] 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
[Jer 5:21 KJV] 21 Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:

As far as I know the old testament does not say when Israel will be saved.........Paul does and that is the mystery

 

[Doug]

The Col.2:13 verse does NOT counter what Paul said in that Romans 3:25 verse that it is PAST SINS that are forgiven.

I did not give Col 2:13 to counter Romans 3:25
Romans 3:25 sins past are sins that were forgiven before the cross

Col 2:13 says ALL our sins are forgiven......NOT JUST our past sins

 

[Doug]

I praise God for His word, and having told you repeatedly what I believe the Bible has to say about 'The Mystery', and 'The Mystery of Christ', I see no reason why I should be subjected to this form of interrogation.

While you are looking up the verses I gave you to find in the prophets, I have one more request please

You said you believe what the Bible has to say about the mystery and the mystery of Christ................please show me what the Bible has to say
Please show me where the Bible says that the mystery of Christ and the mystery are two different mysteries

 

[Davy]

I did not give Col 2:13 to counter Romans 3:25
Romans 3:25 sins past are sins that were forgiven before the cross

Nope, can't apply forgiveness of sins through Jesus PRIOR to His death on the cross and resurrection. The Old Testament faithful had only the Promise by Faith. They didn't live to see it go into effect by Christ's death and resurrection like His Apostles did. Yet those Old Testament saints believed God, like Abraham, and God counted Abraham's faith as righteousness (Galatians 3). Thus care of The Gospel of Jesus Christ was actually contained in God's Birthright Promises first given to Abraham, and which passed onward to his son Isaac, and to his son Jacob, and to his son Joseph, and to his two sons Ephraim and Manasseh where specific care of The Gospel of Jesus Christ still rests in the Christian west to this day.

Col 2:13 says ALL our sins are forgiven......NOT JUST our past sins

Romans 3:25 says different, so YOUR interpretation has a running CONFLICT on the matter, whether you want to admit it or not.

God's requirement for us to understand His written Word is that we leave No Bible Scripture out. All Scripture must be weighed and considered. This means we CANNOT just take one verse out of The Bible and apply it any ole' way we want. If there exists another... Bible Scripture that 'defines' a condition, then that Scripture is NOT to be Omitted. And often, The Bible spreads various important defining points of a matter throughout all... of God's written Word.

Therefore, even though there are many Bible Scriptures about God's saving Grace through faith on the death and resurrection of His Son Jesus Christ, that Romans 3:5 verse by Apostle Paul defines just which sins are remitted by that initial Faith on Jesus Christ.

 

[Doug]

God counted Abraham's faith as righteousness

Righteousness is imputed by grace through faith

How God could forgive sin and be just was through the blood of Christ

 

[Doug]

This means we CANNOT just take one verse out of The Bible and apply it any ole' way we want.

Then please show me verses that say Christ only forgave sins that were committed before our salvation occured

 

[Davy]

Righteousness is imputed by grace through faith

How God could forgive sin and be just was through the blood of Christ

Did God forgive king David for his sin? Yes. Was David one of God's elect? Yes. Have you never read the following by Apostle Paul about those whom God foreknew?

Rom 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.

29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.
KJV

That is not about all believers. It is about the 'chosen' that He already owned before. Here Jesus speaks of His Apostles The Father gave Him...

John 17:6
6 I have manifested Thy name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were, and Thou gavest them Me; and they have kept Thy word.
KJV

That is how Jesus could cause Apostle Paul to be blinded when Saul (Paul) was on his way to Damascus to hunt down Christians and bring them back to Jerusalem for trial. That was a direct divine intervention in Paul's choice of belief. Likewise with Jonah, he tried to get out of the duty God gave him to go preach to those at Nineveh, but he couldn't get out of it. Those are all examples of a chosen elect that are already owned by God. We do not all fit that "chosen" category though, for most of us that came to Faith on Lord Jesus were able to make a choice to believe or not. Paul didn't have that choice, Jesus took it away because Paul was already owned. Thus the above Romans 8 Scripture is particularly about God's chosen elect whom He foreknew.