The Wrath of God - How is it love?

[pandaflower]

We shouldn't be concerned - the corner stone was cut without hands!

Daniel 2:34–35 You saw a stone… cut out by no human hand, which struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and broke them to pieces.

Some attribute the crucifixion to man's hands while others see the divine hand.

Having eyes to see is a blessing of the few.

True.

And some are liars who condemn Jesus and God under the guise of a saint.


God is not fooled by such fools.

Just look at Joel Osteen and his wife . Thousands attend his services and they're all being led to damnation by a lying multimillionaire.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Just look at Joel Osteen and his wife . Thousands attend his services and they're all being led to damnation by a lying multimillionaire.

Many have made merchandise from the Master...their time will come!

 

[quietthinker]

Quiet, there is much Scripture that speaks to it being God’s will that Christ died in precisely the manner he did. Are you perhaps overlooking something about Him that would help you reconcile this in your mind?

There is a misconception regarding God's character. It is a misconception touted by the devil in the beginning. It started with, 'did God really say....?' They took the bait (A&E) and ever since, we have assumed God is angry and needs placating.....dismissing that he went looking for them bearing gifts.....dismissing it was A&E who were hiding from God and dismissing the fact that it was A&E who were full of accusations, not God.

The predictions in scripture that his Messiah will suffer and die are interpreted as God proactively causing this suffering and death as if God is beholden to revenge....revenge dressed up as justice. It is not understood that prediction does not equal causation

All pagan philosophies are built on gods who require appeasing.
The base pagan philosophy has been imbibed. Maintained, it ensures that the generosity, the kindness, the long suffering and the nature of self sacrifice is not understood and twisted. It makes God one to be feared....which is what the devil wants. Fear makes one vulnerable to manipulation. The World's system operates like this.

The back and bigger picture is not seen or refused to be seen or outright rejected in favour of a God who needs appeasing.....and all scriptures re the suffering of the Christ are interpreted through this filter/ lens

If you are not familiar with 'The Gospel in Chairs' you might be interested? ....a simple explanation of two views.

 

[pandaflower]

Poe's Law originated in 2005 during a discussion on Christianforums.com, where Nathan Poe noted that without clear indicators of intent, parodic expressions of extreme views could be mistaken for sincere beliefs. This observation highlighted the difficulty in distinguishing between parody and genuine extremism online.

• Wikipedia

• RationalWiki

 

[Hiddenthings]

There is a misconception regarding God's character. It is a misconception touted by the devil in the beginning. It started with, 'did God really say....?' They took the bait (A&E) and ever since, we have assumed God is angry and needs placating.....dismissing that he went looking for them bearing gifts.....dismissing it was A&E who were hiding from God and dismissing the fact that it was A&E who were full of accusations, not God.

I take it you are not suggesting that God did not mean what He said?

The predictions in scripture that his Messiah will suffer and die are interpreted as God proactively causing this suffering and death as if God is beholden to revenge....revenge dressed up as justice. It is not understood that prediction does not equal causation

Revenge was not the motive...you know it was the Love of God that offered up His Son.

 

[pandaflower]

Brad Jersak is a false woke teacher.

Brad Jersak has been labeled a false teacher by some due to his unconventional views on God and salvation, which challenge traditional Christian beliefs. However, he emphasizes love and grace in his teachings, advocating for a more inclusive understanding of faith. ptm.org benfischerministries.com

Overview of Brad Jersak's Teachings​

Brad Jersak is a contemporary Christian author and teacher known for his unique theological perspectives. His views have sparked debate within the Christian community, leading some to label him as a false teacher.

Key Points of Contention​

Aspect	Details
Theological Views	Jersak emphasizes a God who is loving and not punitive, challenging traditional views of hell.
Universalism Accusations	He has been accused of promoting universalism, though he denies this label, stating he is not a universalist.
Scriptural Interpretation	Jersak questions the inerrancy of scripture, suggesting that some biblical depictions of God may reflect human projections rather than divine truth.
Response to Criticism	He advocates for open dialogue and understanding, urging against labeling others as heretics based on differing interpretations.

Community Reactions​

• Supporters argue that Jersak's focus on love and grace reflects a deeper understanding of Jesus' teachings.
• Critics claim that his views undermine core Christian doctrines, particularly regarding salvation and the nature of God.

Jersak's approach encourages a re-examination of traditional beliefs, which can be polarizing within the Christian community.
benfischerministries.com

 

[Behold]

I do not see it possible that the violence attributed to God by the OT writers accurately reflects the God of Jesus if Jesus was in fact the real unmitigated revelation of God.

Can you understand there is a dilemma here

Did you never read where Jesus took cords and made a WHIP and used it to drive people out of the Temple in Jerusalem...?

So, God who is the Eternal Judge, and Jesus who is the "same, yesterday, today, and forever"... are both found in these 2 verses.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9​

​

8: In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ..​

9: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;​

​

See that "everlasting punishment that is "destruction?"​

​

That is John 3:36 as God's WRATH.​

​

That is HELL and the Lake of Fire.......that is the "2nd Death".​

Where is that found?​

Its found at the end of a Christ Rejecting LIFE... @quietthinker​

 

[quietthinker]

Brad Jersak is a false woke teacher.

Brad Jersak has been labeled a false teacher by some due to his unconventional views on God and salvation, which challenge traditional Christian beliefs. However, he emphasizes love and grace in his teachings, advocating for a more inclusive understanding of faith. ptm.org benfischerministries.com

Overview of Brad Jersak's Teachings​

Brad Jersak is a contemporary Christian author and teacher known for his unique theological perspectives. His views have sparked debate within the Christian community, leading some to label him as a false teacher.

Key Points of Contention​

Aspect	Details
Theological Views	Jersak emphasizes a God who is loving and not punitive, challenging traditional views of hell.
Universalism Accusations	He has been accused of promoting universalism, though he denies this label, stating he is not a universalist.
Scriptural Interpretation	Jersak questions the inerrancy of scripture, suggesting that some biblical depictions of God may reflect human projections rather than divine truth.
Response to Criticism	He advocates for open dialogue and understanding, urging against labeling others as heretics based on differing interpretations.

Community Reactions​

• Supporters argue that Jersak's focus on love and grace reflects a deeper understanding of Jesus' teachings.
• Critics claim that his views undermine core Christian doctrines, particularly regarding salvation and the nature of God.

Jersak's approach encourages a re-examination of traditional beliefs, which can be polarizing within the Christian community.
benfischerministries.com

Jesus was aligned by those who professed to know as a false teacher also. Their advocacy affecting a whole nation.....and today, look at what their rejection of the one whom they deemed a false teacher inspires their leaders to pursue.

 

[quietthinker]

Did you never read where Jesus took cords and made a WHIP and used it to drive people out of the Temple in Jerusalem...?

So, God who is the Eternal Judge, and Jesus who is the "same, yesterday, today, and forever"... are both found in these 2 verses.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9​

​

8: In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ..​

9: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;​

​

See that "everlasting punishment that is "destruction?"​

​

That is John 3:36 as God's WRATH.​

​

That is HELL and the Lake of Fire.......that is the "2nd Death".​

Where is that found?​

Its found at the end of a Christ Rejecting LIFE... @quietthinker​

Let's hope you are qualified to be not be fried by the flaming fire of vengeance.....that flaming fire of Love which consumes hatred and that those who call for the rocks and the mountains to fall on them cannot bear to face.

 

[Behold]

Let's hope you are qualified to be not be fried by the flaming fire of vengeance....

No born again Christian will be found in Hell.

No unbeliever, not born again, will be found in Heaven.

Im born again.
Let's hope you are, and that does not mean water baptized, and it does not mean trying to be like Christ.

.that flaming fire of Love which consumes hatred and that those who call for the rocks and the mountains to fall on them cannot bear to face.

You have a very very limited and immature understanding of God.

Listen....

God/Jesus also Hate.

There are six things the Lord hates..

16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

seven that are detestable to him:

=================================================================================================

16 There are six things the Lord hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
19 a false witness who pours out lies
and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.

 

[quietthinker]

No born again Christian will be found in Hell.

No unbeliever, not born again, will be found in Heaven.

Im born again.
Let's hope you are, and that does not mean water baptized, and it does not mean trying to be like Christ.

Of course you have your hoops. How many are in the collection now?

You have a very very limited and immature understanding of God.

Jesus loves me this I know for the bible tells me so.
I guess my immaturity which gives hope and peace refuses the piling up hoop jumping exercises!

 

[Hiddenthings]

@quietthinker

When you read a section like Romans 8:1-3 which is incredibly profound - how do you interpret it?

Romans 8:1–3 1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,

The purpose of God raising up Christ out of Adam was to condemn sin in its source.

You must believe that God ordained the slaying of a lamb from the foundation of the world for this purpose. The fact that it was carried out “by wicked hands” only renders guilty those who unknowingly fulfilled God’s will.

How do you reconcile these truths?

 

[pandaflower]

Jesus was aligned by those who professed to know as a false teacher also. Their advocacy affecting a whole nation.....and today, look at what their rejection of the one whom they deemed a false teacher inspires their leaders to pursue.

Yeahhh, well that was as God willed.

Jesus didn't teach against Gospel principles . Brad does.

Brad's no Jesus.

 

[quietthinker]

@quietthinker

When you read a section like Romans 8:1-3 which is incredibly profound - how do you interpret it?

Romans 8:1–3 1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,

The purpose of God raising up Christ out of Adam was to condemn sin in its source.

You must believe that God ordained the slaying of a lamb from the foundation of the world for this purpose. The fact that it was carried out “by wicked hands” only renders guilty those who unknowingly fulfilled God’s will.

How do you reconcile these truths?

Romans 8 is a continuation of Romans 7. The word 'therefore' is indicative of this.
Who is it that is in Christ Jesus? ...all who are in Adam...as explained in Romans 5:12-19

My question; who was it that slew the lambs taken to the temple/ sanctuary by the individuals who presented the lambs, the lambs that were figurative of Jesus in the Hebrew economy? Was it God? I don't think you would give ascent to that. Was it the priest? It was the sinner himself who cut the lamb's throat.

This exercise/ ritual screamed who the killer of the harmless and innocent is.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Romans 8 is a continuation of Romans 7. The word 'therefore' is indicative of this.
Who is it that is in Christ Jesus? ...all who are in Adam...as explained in Romans 5:12-19

No, all die in Adam. There is a process of being united with Christ, with prerequisites fully outlined in Romans 6

My question; who was it that slew the lambs taken to the temple/ sanctuary by the individuals who presented the lambs, the lambs that were figurative of Jesus in the Hebrew economy? Was it God? I don't think you would give ascent to that. Was it the priest? It was the sinner himself who cut the lamb's throat.

This exercise/ ritual screamed who the killer of the harmless and innocent is.

Correct. however, those sacrifices could not take away sin. (By the way the placing of the hand on the forehead of the animal was all about identification with sin and its condemnation in death.)

The writer of Hebrews answers:

Hebrews 9:26–28 "But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him."

Who is the One offering, and who is the one who willingly offered himself?

(BTW Trinitarians do not like the purple text!)

 

[quietthinker]

No, all die in Adam. There is a process of being united with Christ, with prerequisites fully outlined in Romans 6

Romans 5:15-19....five verses which tell us the same thing five times....just so we don't miss it. ALL in Adam and ALL in Christ. Subsequently the Good News which all who believe are privileged to share.

If one does not believe this the only thing left is to give advice, ie to tell people what they must do to be saved (the hoops morph and multiply).....and so THE Good News has been hijacked and replaced with Advice, which those propagating it preface with 'good'.... quiet unconsciously much of the time.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Romans 5:15-19....five verses which tell us the same thing five times....just so we don't miss it. ALL in Adam and ALL in Christ. Subsequently the Good News which all who believe are privileged to share.

It's a nice thought quiet - but Paul goes on to qualify those who are "in" Christ have no condemnation. I just shared Romans 8:1 with you.

Paul goes to great pains in Romans 6 to show you how one can enter Christ.

It's considered to be the most important chapter in Pauls Gospel (chapter 8 included)

If one does not believe this the only thing left is to give advice, ie to tell people what they must do to be saved (the hoops morph and multiply).....and so THE Good News has been hijacked and replaced with Advice, which those propagating it preface with 'good'.... quiet unconsciously much of the time.

You stayed away from Hebrews 9:26-28?

Any reason?

 

[Hiddenthings]

@quietthinker

Here is some evidence for you to ponder.

But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one-man Jesus Christ abounded for MANY Romans 5:15

Mark 10:45 "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for MANY"

"Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?" Romans 6:3

Those baptized “into his death” participate in that death, both in its general purpose, which is the denial of sin’s power, and its specific purpose, which is the basis for the forgiveness of sins. Christ’s death finalized his life of self-sacrifice and renunciation of the flesh, and his literal crucifixion completed this victory (“It is finished”). Our death in baptism is a physical demonstration of our intent to follow the same principle throughout our lives, until the final victory is realized in us (1 Corinthians 15:55). Through baptism, we figuratively “crucify the lusts and passions of the flesh” (Galatians 5:24; Hebrews 9:22), leaving them behind in the “grave” of baptism.

Not "All" will be found to be in Christ.

 

[pandaflower]

Romans 5:15-19....five verses which tell us the same thing five times....just so we don't miss it. ALL in Adam and ALL in Christ. Subsequently the Good News which all who believe are privileged to share.

If one does not believe this the only thing left is to give advice, ie to tell people what they must do to be saved (the hoops morph and multiply).....and so THE Good News has been hijacked and replaced with Advice, which those propagating it preface with 'good'.... quiet unconsciously much of the time.

It would be irresponsible of me not to interject that one must first understand Jesus said,no one comes to him unless the Father calls them.

And that understanding comports with all of 1Corinthians 2.
Particularly,
Verses, 14.he unbeliever[i] does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him. And he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The one who is spiritual discerns[j] all things, yet he himself is understood[k] by no one. 16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to advise him?[l] But we have the mind of Christ.



The unbeliever with their natural,worldly, mind cannot freely choose Jesus.

 

[quietthinker]

@quietthinker

Here is some evidence for you to ponder.

But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one-man Jesus Christ abounded for MANY Romans 5:15

Mark 10:45 "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for MANY"

"Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?" Romans 6:3

Those baptized “into his death” participate in that death, both in its general purpose, which is the denial of sin’s power, and its specific purpose, which is the basis for the forgiveness of sins. Christ’s death finalized his life of self-sacrifice and renunciation of the flesh, and his literal crucifixion completed this victory (“It is finished”). Our death in baptism is a physical demonstration of our intent to follow the same principle throughout our lives, until the final victory is realized in us (1 Corinthians 15:55). Through baptism, we figuratively “crucify the lusts and passions of the flesh” (Galatians 5:24; Hebrews 9:22), leaving them behind in the “grave” of baptism.

Not "All" will be found to be in Christ.

The biggest tragedy in the Universe is that many for whom Jesus died, resurrected and ascended, turn their back on the greatest gift given to bumbling, fumbling, rebellious men and women.

God's GIFT is not ratified because men accept it. It is ratified by Jesus death, resurrection and ascension way before many were born or heard of it. God has done for us (humanity....IN Jesus) what it was impossible for us to do. 'He has forgiven all our sins and made us accepted in the beloved'....

Colossians 1:13-14
He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of His beloved Son, / in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Colossians 2:13-15
And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

When and where? At the cross IN Jesus. For who? All humanity.
Your belief in Jesus is your acknowledgement and gratitude. Your gratitude did not bring God's self sacrificing love into existence. It was there before the foundation of the World. It is revealed IN Jesus.

Does God leave himself without a witness in circumstances where men have not heard or understood? No no no no. His Spirit strives with all men and women through all ages. Because they haven't seen or understood this gift does this mean it's not theirs? Of course not.
Will they get to see it? I think yes. Examples would be, Noah, Abraham, Samson and the many mentioned in Hebrews 11....and no doubt many many others from the far flung corners of the Earth not mentioned....even from Pagan territories.

Disqualification comes when with sustained defiance (just like Satan) men do not care, do not want and trample underfoot that which has been freely given them.....defiantly substituting their own ideas.
Death is preferable to them than facing 'the one who loved them and gave himself for them' .....as we see in Revelation 6:15-17

'And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

His love to/ for them is seen by them as being wrathful. Something dreadful and terrible has twisted their minds. They have been deceived.