Question for Premils (Amils welcome to answer): How many times are the dead judged?

[grafted branch]

Look at the whole Ezekiel 47 chapter and notice the future tenses and the lush imagery that Palestine has never had consistently. Notice the verses that describe the abundance of water, a symbolic picture of God's many blessings on the future new earth. Revelation 22 merely provides more details of that figurative, future picture, when God will be on his throne on the new earth. Notice, again, Paul's use of "it," referring to our human body and its resurrection:

In Ezekiel 47:10 it says fishermen are going to be on the shore and there’s going to be all kinds of fish to catch. In Matthew 4:19 Jesus says come follow Me and I will make you fishers of men.

Aren’t we currently fishers of men or does that only apply to the New Heaven New Earth? If it only happens in the NHNE then who are the fish and who are the fishermen?

I simply believe 2 Corinthians 5:17 (NIV) Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

I’m currently in the New Heaven New Earth and the leaves are currently being used for the healing of the nations. Revelation 22 is symbolic, and at least we agree on that point.

 

[IndianaRob]

The resurrection of those who belong to Christ will be the same type of resurrection as Christ had (1 Corinthians 15:22-23). So, are you saying you think that Christ's resurrection didn't involve His dead earthly body?

We know very little about Christ’s earthly body, except that it was like Adam’s before the fall, sinless and not subject to death until sin entered.

• Christ’s body, like Adams body was directly created by God, not inherited from fallen flesh.
• Because Jesus never sinned, His body could not die unless He willingly laid down His life (John 10:18). He had authority to both lay down His life and take it up again which proves His body operated on a different level than ours.
• His body did not decay when His spirit left but our bodies immediately begin to corrupt after death.

Christ’s resurrection was not identical to ours. Our resurrection involves corruptible bodies being raised incorruptible, while His incorruptible body was never subject to decay at all.

 

[Davy]

Brethren in Christ; there only is but One Judgment, and it is the Great White Throne Judgment that only happens after Christ's FUTURE 1,000 YEARS REIGN of Revelation 20.

It's only that SOME brethren have a difficult time understanding the difference between that future Great White Throne Judgment compared to discrimination among the brethren like on the day of Christ's future coming when even some believers will be assigned to the "outer darkness" along with the wicked. What is the difference then per God's Word?

Well, who all goes into the future "lake of fire" on the day of Christ's future return? NO ONE that is born in the flesh does, simply because only the Great White Throne Judgment determines who will perish in that future "lake of fire" AFTER Christ's future "thousand years" reign.

Rev.19 reveals that the beast and false prophet go into the "lake of fire" on the day of Christ's future return, however, those are actually about character ROLES that Satan will play during the great tribulation, not two separate flesh men. This is why those do not have a Great White Throne Judgment, because the beast king role and false prophet role are not separate flesh men, but only roles Satan will play. Christ will destroy those ROLES on the day of His future return, but Satan, the dragon, will not be destroyed yet.

 

[IndianaRob]

@IndianaRob, you're adding meaning the analogy that Paul doesn't add. His point is that the seed is the perishable, temporary, earthy body and that it ends up being an imperishable, eternal, spiritual (Spirit-endowed) body. His illustration shows that these imperfect bodies will become our perfect, resurrection bodies. Our souls go to heaven when we die and come back with Jesus; our bodies, thus, are dead but are given the life of our eternal soul and will live forever. That's what Paul says, "

No, @grafted branch, many symbolic pictures in Revelation expand on those Old Testament Hebrew and poetic pictures. Look at the whole Ezekiel 47 chapter and notice the future tenses and the lush imagery that Palestine has never had consistently. Notice the verses that describe the abundance of water, a symbolic picture of God's many blessings on the future new earth. Revelation 22 merely provides more details of that figurative, future picture, when God will be on his throne on the new earth. Notice, again, Paul's use of "it," referring to our human body and its resurrection:

1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

God can, without any effort, re-assemble our earthly bodies and transform them into spiritual bodies with his unlimited, creative power, even from scattered molecules. Jesus showed his resurrection body with his scars to the disciples but could go through walls but hid his glory. Why should we be any different but with God's glory shining from us?

Bruce you can’t add meaning to the seed analogy, a seed does what a seed does period… nothing can be added or interpreted.

Life (a peanut for example) is trapped in the seed body (the peanut shell) and cannot get out until the SEED BODY (peanut shell) goes into the ground and dies.

Once the seed body is destroyed, the peanut (life) is given a brand new body (a peanut plant). That new body has nothing to do with the original seed body.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

In Ezekiel 47:10 it says fishermen are going to be on the shore and there’s going to be all kinds of fish to catch. In Matthew 4:19 Jesus says come follow Me and I will make you fishers of men.

Aren’t we currently fishers of men or does that only apply to the New Heaven New Earth? If it only happens in the NHNE then who are the fish and who are the fishermen?

I simply believe 2 Corinthians 5:17 (NIV) Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

I’m currently in the New Heaven New Earth and the leaves are currently being used for the healing of the nations. Revelation 22 is symbolic, and at least we agree on that point.

Yes, @grafted branch, Revelation 22 is symbolic, but its fulfillment is yet future. The new Jerusalem, symbolizing the completed Old and New Testament church, hasn't come down out of heaven yet to the new earth. In chapter 21, the following verses following John's glimpse of the new universe haven't happened yet, especially verse 4:

Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.
Rev 21:4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

This description follows 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, when all resurrected believers rise to meet Jesus and the souls coming from heaven, who have been united with their resurrection bodies:

1Th 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
1Th 4:15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

The Apostle Paul does not say where we will go after being "caught up," but Revelation 21:2 (above) does. We will descend as the symbolic new Jerusalem to the new, perfected earth. It's perfected in the future, because of verse 4, which has not happened yet.

You are right to say that 2 Corinthians 5:17 describes our present perfection in God's eyes, but we are only perfect because when the Father, our Judge, looks at us, he only sees us through the sinless perfection of Jesus, our Substitute, whose death and resurrection enables our Judge to give us the not-guilty verdict, while Jesus took our guilty verdict on himself (called justification in Scripture).

However, the Scriptures testify that we have to deal with the sin that is still within us. For example, the Apostle Paul says that he is imperfect and is running a race toward the final goal at Jesus' return of resurrection perfection. That's in Philippians 3:

Php 3:8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ
Php 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—
Php 3:10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,
Php 3:11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
Php 3:12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
Php 3:13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
Php 3:14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

In verses 10-12, he says clearly that his goal will happen after death in his bodily resurrection like Jesus' resurrection (verses 10-11), because his reception of the new birth only began the process of a lifelong journey or race to death and beyond it to his resurrection when Jesus comes back.

We need to test our lives against the commands of the Bible to see how imperfect we are. For example, we can look at Paul's inspired commands in 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18:

1Th 5:16 Rejoice always,
1Th 5:17 pray without ceasing,
1Th 5:18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

I don't know anyone who is constantly joyful, prayerful, and thankful in the hearts and in their outer life, including myself.

 

[grafted branch]

Yes, @grafted branch, Revelation 22 is symbolic, but its fulfillment is yet future. The new Jerusalem, symbolizing the completed Old and New Testament church, hasn't come down out of heaven yet to the new earth. In chapter 21, the following verses following John's glimpse of the new universe haven't happened yet, especially verse 4:

Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.
Rev 21:4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

This description follows 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, when all resurrected believers rise to meet Jesus and the souls coming from heaven, who have been united with their resurrection bodies:

1Th 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
1Th 4:15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

The Apostle Paul does not say where we will go after being "caught up," but Revelation 21:2 (above) does. We will descend as the symbolic new Jerusalem to the new, perfected earth. It's perfected in the future, because of verse 4, which has not happened yet.

You are right to say that 2 Corinthians 5:17 describes our present perfection in God's eyes, but we are only perfect because when the Father, our Judge, looks at us, he only sees us through the sinless perfection of Jesus, our Substitute, whose death and resurrection enables our Judge to give us the not-guilty verdict, while Jesus took our guilty verdict on himself (called justification in Scripture).

However, the Scriptures testify that we have to deal with the sin that is still within us. For example, the Apostle Paul says that he is imperfect and is running a race toward the final goal at Jesus' return of resurrection perfection. That's in Philippians 3:

Php 3:8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ
Php 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—
Php 3:10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,
Php 3:11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
Php 3:12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
Php 3:13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
Php 3:14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

In verses 10-12, he says clearly that his goal will happen after death in his bodily resurrection like Jesus' resurrection (verses 10-11), because his reception of the new birth only began the process of a lifelong journey or race to death and beyond it to his resurrection when Jesus comes back.

We need to test our lives against the commands of the Bible to see how imperfect we are. For example, we can look at Paul's inspired commands in 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18:

1Th 5:16 Rejoice always,
1Th 5:17 pray without ceasing,
1Th 5:18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

I don't know anyone who is constantly joyful, prayerful, and thankful in the hearts and in their outer life, including myself.

Ok, so I agree with most of what you’re saying. Here’s the thing that gets me though, I definitely think we are in NHNE and when people argue that NHNE only takes place in the future it makes me question their understanding of salvation itself.

In Hebrews 12:22 we have come to the heavenly Jerusalem, that means right now, and that is same Revelation 21:2 new Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven. I don’t want to debate when new Jerusalem comes down but only to point out that new Jerusalem currently exists.

In Revelation 20:11 heaven and earth fled away, which some people will tie into 2 Peter 3:10 day of the Lord where heaven and earth pass away, elements melt with fervent heat … That idea would mean currently the new Jerusalem isn’t in the current heavens and earth because they get destroyed. That only leaves us with new Jerusalem currently being in the NHNE, which would mean that we are currently in NHNE.

Since there are some people on this forum who will insist we can loose our salvation, they will argue against us currently being in the NHNE because they recognize there is no exiting NHNE once you enter. I don’t know where you stand on salvation but I hope you can see how it ties into NHNE.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

Ok, so I agree with most of what you’re saying. Here’s the thing that gets me though, I definitely think we are in NHNE and when people argue that NHNE only takes place in the future it makes me question their understanding of salvation itself.

In Hebrews 12:22 we have come to the heavenly Jerusalem, that means right now, and that is same Revelation 21:2 new Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven. I don’t want to debate when new Jerusalem comes down but only to point out that new Jerusalem currently exists.

In Revelation 20:11 heaven and earth fled away, which some people will tie into 2 Peter 3:10 day of the Lord where heaven and earth pass away, elements melt with fervent heat … That idea would mean currently the new Jerusalem isn’t in the current heavens and earth because they get destroyed. That only leaves us with new Jerusalem currently being in the NHNE, which would mean that we are currently in NHNE.

Since there are some people on this forum who will insist we can loose our salvation, they will argue against us currently being in the NHNE because they recognize there is no exiting NHNE once you enter. I don’t know where you stand on salvation but I hope you can see how it ties into NHNE.

Yes, @grafted branch, you're right that we already have one foot in heaven and one on the earth, so to speak. That's the already/not yet of the gospel. For example, Paul describes both of those aspects in Colossians 3:1-14:

Col 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth.
Col 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
Col 3:5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
Col 3:6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming.
Col 3:7 In these you too once walked, when you were living in them.
Col 3:8 But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth.
Col 3:9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices
Col 3:10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.
Col 3:11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.
Col 3:12 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,
Col 3:13 bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.
Col 3:14 And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony.

The "already" of the gospel is in verses 1, 3, 10, 11; whereas his commands in the other verses and the rest of the chapter are the "not yet." Therefore, we have the new birth and the Holy Spirit to help us make spiritual progress on the rest of our lives. Compare the first two chapters of that book with the last two, Ephesians 1-3 with 4-6, Hebrews 1-11 with 12-13, and Romans 1-11 with 12-16; and you'll make the same discovery that we are already perfect through Jesus' perfection in our Judge's eyes so that he declares us "not-guilty" with his verdict ("already in heaven" with his justification), but we still have those sins in us that we need to overcome with God's resourceful power through Jesus' resurrection at our disposal through prayer. That's the reason Paul ends his command to put on God's armor to fight the devil in Ephesians 6:10-17 with 18-19 (part of the "not yet" part of Ephesians) with the need for persistent prayer.

Eph 6:10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might.
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
Eph 6:13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm.
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness,
Eph 6:15 and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace.
Eph 6:16 In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one;
Eph 6:17 and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God,
Eph 6:18 praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end, keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,
Eph 6:19 and also for me, that words may be given to me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel. (all ESV)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Currently people do use leaves for healing. Aloe Vera is used for burns and skin conditions, peppermint leaves are used for digestive issues, and countless other leaves are made into tea and consumed for all kinds of health reasons.

Maybe you need to reconsider your view so it matches what the Bible says, “the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.”

Maybe you need to ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7) so that you stop misinterpreting so much of the Bible. The context is in relation to the new heavens and new earth where there will be no more death, crying, sorrow or pain (Revelation 21:4). Why would there be a need for healing of illnesses or burns and such when there is no more death?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

There seems to be only one judgment of the dead mentioned in the New Testament and in the Revelation:

The door that had been opened in heaven for John (immediately before he was made aware of the scroll's existence), allowed John to be able to see the throne of God, and he saw "lightnings and thunderings and voices" coming out from the throne (Revelation 4:5).

We read of "voices, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake" at the time of the receiving of the testimony (Exodus 20:18),

and we see it again in the scroll when the seventh trumpet sounds, and again when the seventh plague or bowl of wrath is poured out. The events of both the seventh trumpet and the seventh plague or "bowl of wrath" symbolize God's judgment.

Exodus 20:18: Receiving of the testament:

"And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off."

7th TRUMPET

"And the temple of God was opened in Heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament, and occurred lightnings and voices, and thunders and an earthquake, and a great hail." (Revelation 11:19).

7th PLAGUE

"And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air. And a great voice came out of the temple of Heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done! And voices and thunders and lightnings occurred. And there was a great earthquake, such as has not been since men were on the earth, so mighty and so great an earthquake." (Revelation 16:17-18).

7th SEAL (Note: a scroll is only sealed after the scroll has been written in order to seal its contents):

"And the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar, and cast it into the earth. And voices and thunderings and lightnings and an earthquake occurred."

The scroll unrolled after the 7th seal was loosened, so we could view its contents - which were in place BEFORE the scroll was sealed:

"And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound." (Revelation 8:5-6).

This is not an end-times chart. Just a summary of what the passages are talking about that use the symbolism of lightnings and thunderings:

View attachment 68854

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In Joshua chapter 6 there were seven priests blowing seven trumpets announcing the decree of Jericho's impending judgment, and the walls of Jericho fell when the 7th trumpet sounded, the 7th time the Israelite tribes marched around the city, on the 7th of 7 days.

In the Revelation there are seven angels with seven trumpets announcing to the nations the decree of God regarding their impending judgment; and the cities of the nations are said to fall when the seventh of the seven angels pours out his bowl of wrath.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx​

Revelation 15: The temple of the tabernacle of the testimony was opened in Heaven (verse 5):

* Four beasts
* sea of glass
* those who had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, are seen standing on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Revelation 4:

* 24 elders.
* clothed in white raiment.
* crowns of gold on their heads.
* sea of glass.
* Four beasts.
* Out of the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices.

* The earthly tabernacle was a pattern of the 'tabernacle' in heaven.

* The testament that was in the ark of the testament in the earthly tabernacle consisted of the 10 Commandments representing all the law - and it's a testimony against us - see Jeremiah 31:31-33.

The nations seen being judged in the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19) are judged by the 10 commandments because without the blood of Christ covering "the mercy seat" there is no forgiveness for sins - which is the transgression of the law.

Revelation 11 (7th trumpet)

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Revelation 20

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

How many times are the dead judged? (there seems to be only one judgment of the dead mentioned in the New Testament and in the Revelation).

Two judgments, one before the Millennial Kingdom which you conveniently skipped over and then one after.
We see the 1st Resurrection and then later a 2nd Resurrection ... AND the second death. Death and Hades ( and everyone in it) aren't thrown into the Lake of Fire until the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of time, ( and btw at this time, the 1st earth and 1st heavens are destroyed). 2 Peter 3:10 describes this final event when all former things are burned up. ( "Former things have passed away")
It is astute of you to recognize Rev. 11:15, the 7th Trumpet at which time many things happen, Heaven is opened, rewards are given (with a strong implication that the Rapture just happened), the dead are judged, etc. But after the Rapture ( 1st Resurrection), people are left behind, the Great Tribulation continues with the 7 Bowls of wrath.
Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years". Rev. 20:6
YOU SEE? The 1st Resurrection occurs, then judgment comes, those first batch of Christians (currently 2.7 billion) become exempt from the second death.

So what is the second death?
It is the final judgment. During the Millennial Kingdom, we see people living hundreds of years, "dying at a 100 would be considered young". In Isaiah 11 & 65, this Millennial Kingdom is described. Those left behind who were saved after the Resurrection ( including a remnant Jewish population), repopulate the earth. Babies being born. The earth is at peace, animals in harmony, Satan and His demonic horde locked up, so with only Christians on the planet, life is good..But firing the MK these newborn children must make a decision for Christ as well, even though they were saturated with the knowledge of God and Christ ruling on earth. Likely most generations lived well and died well. (Death and Hades still existed though).
Even though they have seen Jesus, they still have that sin nature..So at the end of the MK, Satan is released to just test the mortals once again. Then the 2nd Resurrection and second death occur.

But hey, this probably a total waste of time, the Amillenialists refuse to except this piece of the puzzle that has been staring at them for a long time.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

Maybe you need to ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7) so that you stop misinterpreting so much of the Bible. The context is in relation to the new heavens and new earth where there will be no more death, crying, sorrow or pain (Revelation 21:4). Why would there be a need for healing of illnesses or burns and such when there is no more death?

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

@Spiritual Israelite, the answer to your question is in the verses around the one to which you refer (the context). At the end of the previous chapter (you realize, of course, that there were no chapter divisions in the original Greek), God shows John that the nations will be all believers:

Rev 21:24 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,
Rev 21:25 and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there.

In the next chapter, John is inspired to write:

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Furthermore, the ESV and KJV both say correctly that "the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations" (past tense).

Therefore, the new Jerusalem, picturing the Old and New Testament church, and the nations are all true believers on the new, glorious earth in the final kingdom of God.

 

[Zao is life]

• Christ’s body, like Adams body was directly created by God, not inherited from fallen flesh.

I disagree. Christ's body was not created at all. Adam's body was. Jesus is indeed begotten of God, not made.

Adam was created from the dust of the earth. Of what was Christ's body created?

 

[IndianaRob]

I disagree. Christ's body was not created at all. Adam's body was. Jesus is indeed begotten of God, not made.

Adam was created from the dust of the earth. Of what was Christ's body created?

The DNA that God used to form His body in the womb.

 

[grafted branch]

Furthermore, the ESV and KJV both say correctly that "the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations" (past tense).

In Revelation 22:2 it’s called the tree of life, in Genesis 2:9 we also see the tree of life. In Genesis 3:22-24 Adam and Eve are kicked out of the garden lest they eat of the tree of life.

Since you see Revelation 22:2 leaves being used for healing as in past tense, when did humanity get access to the tree of life? It would have to be at some point after Eden.

 

[Zao is life]

Yes, @grafted branch, you're right that we already have one foot in heaven and one on the earth, so to speak. That's the already/not yet of the gospel. For example, Paul describes both of those aspects in Colossians 3:1-14:

Col 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth.
Col 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
Col 3:5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
Col 3:6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming.
Col 3:7 In these you too once walked, when you were living in them.
Col 3:8 But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth.
Col 3:9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices
Col 3:10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.
Col 3:11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.
Col 3:12 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,
Col 3:13 bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.
Col 3:14 And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony.

The "already" of the gospel is in verses 1, 3, 10, 11; whereas his commands in the other verses and the rest of the chapter are the "not yet." Therefore, we have the new birth and the Holy Spirit to help us make spiritual progress on the rest of our lives. Compare the first two chapters of that book with the last two, Ephesians 1-3 with 4-6, Hebrews 1-11 with 12-13, and Romans 1-11 with 12-16; and you'll make the same discovery that we are already perfect through Jesus' perfection in our Judge's eyes so that he declares us "not-guilty" with his verdict ("already in heaven" with his justification), but we still have those sins in us that we need to overcome with God's resourceful power through Jesus' resurrection at our disposal through prayer. That's the reason Paul ends his command to put on God's armor to fight the devil in Ephesians 6:10-17 with 18-19 (part of the "not yet" part of Ephesians) with the need for persistent prayer.

Eph 6:10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might.
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
Eph 6:13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm.
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness,
Eph 6:15 and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace.
Eph 6:16 In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one;
Eph 6:17 and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God,
Eph 6:18 praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end, keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,
Eph 6:19 and also for me, that words may be given to me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel. (all ESV)

Col 3:4 you quoted says it:

When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

It ties in with the resurrection of our bodies when Christ appears.

 

[Zao is life]

The DNA that God used to form His body in the womb.

Which father did that DNA come from?

 

[IndianaRob]

Which father did that DNA come from?

God the Father, who else could it have came from?

 

[Zao is life]

God the Father, who else could it have came from?

So was God the Father created?

Did He create Adam in His own image, after His own likeness?

Was Jesus's DNA from Adam's or is He begotten of God?

 

[IndianaRob]

So was God the Father created?

Did He create Adam in His own image, after His own likeness?

Was Jesus's DNA from Adam's or is He begotten of God?

Are you serious? Was God the Father created? No he wasn't created, neither was Jesus. God prepared a BODY for Jesus... a vehicle to interact with this realm.

No Jesus DNA wasn't from Adam. That's why he was born of a virgin.

 

[Zao is life]

Are you serious? Was God the Father created? No he wasn't created, neither was Jesus. God prepared a BODY for Jesus... a vehicle to interact with this realm.

No Jesus DNA wasn't from Adam. That's why he was born of a virgin.

If Jesus's body was created He would be a creature like Adam. But He was the Creator BECOMING flesh. You said that God created Jesus's body.