Where are you going with this? Are you one of those who thinks Jesus is not God? Did God breath into Jesus body and make him a "living soul", no he didnt. God prepared a human body for Jesus and Jesus stepped into it. Are you JW?
Question for Premils (Amils welcome to answer): How many times are the dead judged?
- Thread starter Zao is life
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
NM. Replied to the wrong post so I then deleted it and replied to the post I had in mind to begin with.
I think I somewhat understand where you are basically coming from. And if so, I basically agree with you over all. Unlike JWs, you are not saying Jesus was a created being. You are only meaning His human body here. Obviously, His human body was created at some point, otherwise we have to conclude that Jesus was always human even before He was born into the world first.
I would take it a step further, though. Mary helped create His body as well, but not through an act of procreation between a male and female. IOW, without Mary there would be no Jesus with a human body. I'm basically saying that God used Mary as a means to create the human body of Jesus. Therefore, Mary shared in the creating of His body since his body was created inside of her. But not to be conflated with that of the following, where basically none of it I agree with myself.
---------------
Mary's Special Status:
Exalted creature:
Though not divine, she is the most exalted of all creatures.
Preserved from sin:
Mary was preserved from original sin by a unique grace from God, allowing her to be perfectly human and holy.
Model of discipleship:
She serves as a perfect example of faith, showing how to say "yes" to God's will.
Maternal role:
The Catholic Church believes she continues her maternal role in heaven, interceding for Christians as the Mother of the Church.
-------------------
I'm not Catholic, I'm anti-Catholic, yet I don't hate Catholics. I just don't like their religion for the most part. I have had numerous Catholic friends over the years. I have also had some JW friends. But even so, I could never become a Catholic in a million years nor do I have a desire to. The same equally applies to JW.
Last edited:
Now the Word became [1096 ginomai] flesh and took up residence among us. We saw his glory - the glory of the one and only, full of grace and truth, who came from the Father. (John 1:14 [NETfree])
1096 γίνομαι givnomai ginomai {ghin'-om-ahee}
a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.):--arise, be assembled, be(-come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.
It's a translation of the Hebrew word haya (to become, to come into being). You will find that word where God says "I am that I am". Also where it says God breathed into the created Adam and Adam became a living soul:
Genesis 1:1 & 26-27, and Genesis 2:7:
Created: When YHVH God created [bara] man,
Formed: He formed [yatsar] man of the dust of the ground; and
Breathed: breathed (naphach) into his nostrils the breath (nshamah) of life (chay); and
Became: the man became [H1961 haya] a living [chay] soul (nephesh).
(Strongs Hebrew Dictionary): H1961 hayah: To exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass.
"And God said unto Moses, I AM [H1961 hayah] THAT I AM [H1961 hayah]: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." (Exodus 3:14).
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: (Philippians 2:7 [KJV])
but emptied himself by taking on the form of a slave, by looking like other men, and by sharing in human nature. (Philippians 2:7 [NETfree])
The word "begotten" means unique, one of its kind.
You are wrongly interpreting the words "a body you prepared for Me" in Hebrews .
Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
@Zao is life, that KJV translation, which is also in a Creed, is one of the few times that the translators got it wrong, because there are two almost-identical participles in Greek, one of which means "born" or "begotten" (in the older English), while the other one means "unique." Again, it's a rare instance in which the more recent translations get it right, usually with the words "one and only Son."
When the Holy Spirit creates Jesus, the second Person of God, often said to be the "Angel of the LORD" in the Old Testament, I believe, who is one of the Persons of the three in the one God, enters her womb and joins with a sinless, human body. He is fully human, enabling him to die, and fully God, all as Jesus, so that he is able to rise from the dead.
The four gospels testify to Jesus' death and to his resurrection, certified by many eyewitnesses who have been willing to suffer and die for the truth of their testimonies.
The process of Christ's creation is a mystery, because the Bible doesn't say, but we know the result.
Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
@Davidpt, where did you get the idea that Mary "is the most exalted of all creatures," if you are anti-Catholic? It seems to me that their beliefs and tradition about Mary have rubbed off on you, since you make that comment. What Bible verses say that she is?
If Mary is "a perfect example of faith," are you saying, like the Catholics, that she has been immaculately conceived? Again, where do you find that teaching in the Bible?
I would ask you the same question about her having a "maternal role in heaven" and being "the Mother of the Church." I strongly disagree with that belief.
Those beliefs are the primary reason that I could never join the Catholic Church. They have an added tradition from the Popes' pronouncements that is separate from the Bible's teachings. I believe that the Bible is the sole authority for our Christian lives and beliefs, because it alone is inspired by God:
2Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Timothy 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
I don't know why we're even having this discussion because,
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (I Timothy 3:16 [KJV])
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten [1080 gennao] thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? Hebrews 1:5
1080 γεννάω gennavw gennao {ghen-nah'-o}
from a variation of 1085; to procreate (properly, of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively, to regenerate:--bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.
see GREEK for 1085
gennao does not mean created. Nor does giinomai:
Now the Word became [1096 ginomai] flesh and took up residence among us. We saw his glory - the glory of the one and only, full of grace and truth, who came from the Father. (John 1:14 [NETfree])
1096 γίνομαι givnomai ginomai {ghin'-om-ahee}
a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.):--arise, be assembled, be(-come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.
It's a translation of the Hebrew word haya (to become, to come into being). You will find that word where God says "I am that I am". Also where it says God breathed into the created Adam and Adam became a living soul:
Genesis 1:1 & 26-27, and Genesis 2:7:
Created: When YHVH God created [bara] man,
Formed: He formed [yatsar] man of the dust of the ground; and
Breathed: breathed (naphach) into his nostrils the breath (nshamah) of life (chay); and
Became: the man became [H1961 haya] a living [chay] soul (nephesh).
(Strongs Hebrew Dictionary): H1961 hayah: To exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass.
"And God said unto Moses, I AM [H1961 hayah] THAT I AM [H1961 hayah]: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." (Exodus 3:14).
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: (Philippians 2:7 [KJV])
but emptied himself by taking on the form of a slave, by looking like other men, and by sharing in human nature. (Philippians 2:7 [NETfree])
The word "prepared in "a body you prepared for Me" in Hebrews 10:5 is related to the subject of the verse - which is sacrifice, not the nature of Christ.
Copy @IndianaRob @Davidpt
Where does scripture use the word "created" when scripture talks about Mary's conception?
Copy @IndianaRob @Davidpt
The bible says Jesus was created - NOWHERE in the bible. I don't understand the Mary stuff either, Mary was a Godly woman just like any other Godly woman.
That's right. The Bible tells us Jesus became flesh and was begotten of God. Nowhere does the Bible talk about the body of Jesus being created in the womb of Mary.
Jesus's body was a flesh-and-blood body, like that of sinful flesh - but it was not created.
Copy @Bruce-Leiter
This has been on my mind here recently about the body of Jesus. I'm beginning to think Jesus body was made just like Adams body. If Adam hadn't have sinned, he would of lived forever because sin and death came into the world because of Adam's sin. What's your opinion?
@IndianaRob
1 Corinthians 15
"45 So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became [1096 ginomai] a living person"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (I Corinthians 15:45 [NETfree])
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven."
The first man was created from the dust of the earth and became a living soul when God breathed the breath of life into him. The second man was not created. He became flesh - and it's a mystery. God was manifest in the flesh when the Word became flesh.
1 Corinthians 15
"45 So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became [1096 ginomai] a living person"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (I Corinthians 15:45 [NETfree])
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven."
The first man was created from the dust of the earth and became a living soul when God breathed the breath of life into him. The second man was not created. He became flesh - and it's a mystery. God was manifest in the flesh when the Word became flesh.
The difference is that Adam's body was created. Jesus' body was not.
But I agree that it was just like Adam's body - the same likeness. Adam was created in the image and likeness of God, but then sinned. Jesus became flesh so that He could come in the likeness of Adam - sinful flesh:
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh" Romans 8:3
If Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh it means His body was the same as Adam's body before Adam sinned.
The KJV renders that a lot different.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
@IndianaRob There would be no resurrection from the dead if there were no death. There would be no death if Adam never sinned. Christ became flesh and came in the likeness of sinful flesh and Adam's sin was credited to Him, He bore it in His own body, and that;s why He died.
But He Himself had no sin. And the eternal life of God was in the Word (John 1:4) That's why death could not hold Him.
"For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Romans 6:5
That's why it says we have been raised with Christ.
But He Himself had no sin. And the eternal life of God was in the Word (John 1:4) That's why death could not hold Him.
"For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Romans 6:5
That's why it says we have been raised with Christ.
Yes, but if you look at the Greek, the word is ginomai, which means became. Not made.
John 1:14 interlinear Bible
@IndianaRob I think what the KJV translators were trying to convey when it was first translated from the Greek was that the Greek means that the Word was made to be flesh (became flesh)
- and maybe in that old English world, that is what they who read it would have understood by the word.
Hey, IndianaRob, you should understand 'prepared' in that verse in the same way as, oh, "dressed or," or "made ready for," or even "sent for the purpose of," rather than anything along the lines of "created." The writer of Hebrews, in 10:5-7, is quoting and referring directly to Psalm 40:6-8. Jesus, of course, as you know, is the Lamb of God, Who, according to God's will, of course, accomplished our redemption by His sacrifice on the cross. David is really who the writer of Hebrews is quoting there, and David acknowledged, in his praise and worship of God, that God was never pleased with sacrifices and offerings, and prepared Jesus to be the true sacrifice for him (David), and likewise for all of us. You see?
Grace and peace to you.
Similar threads
