Is it possible to lose salvation?

[GodsGrace]

No. You mentioned they were done by believers. and thus not a work.

So then YOU said that communion and baptism is a work??
How are they works if Jesus commanded that we do this?

If they were believers, they are already saved, and do not need communion or to get baptized.

Again....
ONLY believers get to receive communion and be baptized.

Non believers should not be doing either one.

You doi realise catholics baptize babies before they even know who jesus is do you not?

So does this mean that since every Catholic is baptized then every Catholic is saved?
They believe that hell exists too.

 

[nedsk]

dude you are ignoring Jesus

You quoted 1 sentence he said, Ignore what he said those who eat it WOULD recieve. and ignored everything else he said in the passage.

You are sounding like a normal catholic who is spoonfed what to believe making you unable to actually discuss a passage in question.. Again, your focused in 7 workds

we both believe Jesus said those words. We believe what he said.

the difference is you ignore everything else he said

again, your making it to easy

Dude? LMBO

I'm listening to him loud and clear. You hear but don't believe

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Why is spiritual food so difficult to receive?

Its not

Jesus spoke it the day before. and he is speaking it to them now.

yet they did not receive it in faith or believe it.. They made it difficult. because they did not believe

its no different than discussion in chatrooms. If you do not believe something, it does not matter how much evidence is given to us that what we hear is literal truth. we will never believe it.

It seems to me that actually EATING/CHEWING the flesh of Jesus was the
difficult teaching.

The whole teaching was difficult

When he said he was the bread from heaven,, they could not understand it.

You need to start at the beginning and walk your way through everything Jesus said, not just a few words

I would be glad to go over it and lets look.. But not sure it would do any good

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Did I misspeak?
Not going to check.
I meant that Jesus knew who would betray Him....Judas.

The rest is plural...yes.

ok maybe I misunderstood you sorry..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So then YOU said that communion and baptism is a work??
How are they works if Jesus commanded that we do this?

If I do them to GET something in return. it is a work - I am doing them to earn something (like salvation or forgiveness of sins)

If I do them out of obedience not expecting anything in return. It is a work of righteousness.. or a work of obedience.

both people do the same works, one does it in sin, and one does it in Honor of God.

Again....
ONLY believers get to receive communion and be baptized.

If they are believers, they are already saved, born again from above. Made a child of God. saved forever.

and they do these things out of Gratitude and faith in God

If they do them to get saved, keep saved, or keep from losing salvation. they are believers in their works. not in God.

I pray one day you recognize the difference

Non believers should not be doing either one.

Yet they do them all the time

So does this mean that since every Catholic is baptized then every Catholic is saved?

No. How can a baby get saved when he has no capacity to believe?

They believe that hell exists too.

They believe in the trinity too.. That is not what makes us a child of God

John 1: 12 but as many as have received him, to THEM he gave the right to become children..

1. How do we recieve him
2. Will God kick us out of his family after he adopts us since he paid for our adoption with his own blood?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Dude? LMBO

I'm listening to him loud and clear. You hear but don't believe

Your selective listening

You hear the words (eat and drink) but you are not hearing the words "And you will never die, live forever. have eternal life, be raised on the last day, never hunger or thirst"

whe4n you are ready to listen to these words. Get back with me,, maybe we can have some good conversation

Until then, don't lie about me not listening..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

@GodsGrace lets try to make this simple. I have broken down the words of Jesus below

The words of Jesus. Why does anyone focus on a few words. and not all of them,

lets focus on all the words. and also why do we not focus on the results of those who obey?

so in the following I will show ALL the words Jesus said what he commanded, and what those who obey will recieve


In black is the command

In blue is what the one who follows the command will receive


27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, ,

Command – Labor for this food that Jesus came to give

Result – The food will endure forever


33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

What is this food?

He who comes down from heaven

Result – Life is offered to the world


35: “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

Jesus is the one who came down from heaven He is the bread of life

Command: Come to him –

Result. You will never hunger

Command – Believe

Result – Never thirst


36: the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Command – Come to me

Result – You will never be cast out


39: that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Fact – All who are given to God

Result – Will never be lost, and will be raised on the last day


40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Command – See and believe

Result – You will live forever (eternal life) and you will be raised on the last day


47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

Command – Believe in him

Result – You will live forever (eternal life)


50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.

Command – Eat the bread

Result – you will never die


51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever;

Command – Eat this bread

Result – Live forever



52: and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

What is this bread? My life I give

Result – Life of the world


53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.

Command – Fail to eat the flesh and blood (the bread)

Result – you have no life in you (your dead)


54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Command – Eat my flesh and blood (the bread)

Result – You will live forever (eternal life) and you will be raised on the last day


56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

Command Eat my flesh and drink my blood

Result – You will abide in him, and he will abide in you. As he lives you will live also


57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.

Command – Feed on him

Result – You will live


58: He who eats this bread will live forever.”.

Command – Eat this bread

Result – You will live forever


Jesus came to give life. He said whoever eats this bread (feeds on him ) will get life. So what is it that gives life?

Jesus answers this also

62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

• Jesus said he was the bread sent down from heave
• Jesus asked, what if you see him ascend back to heaven (which many of them would in the future after his death)
• The thing that gives life (the food, the bread, the flesh and blood) is given by the spirit.
• The food which gives life ARE THE WORDS JESUS SPEAKS as given by the spirit

I honestly do not see why people make this conversation so difficult

Jesus said do this, If you do this, i will give you that.

Its simple..

 

[GodsGrace]

If I do them to GET something in return. it is a work - I am doing them to earn something (like salvation or forgiveness of sins)

Oh wow.
Yeah.
So let's not do any good work because we might be doing it to get something in return.

LIKE MAYBE OUR SALVATION?

If I do them out of obedience not expecting anything in return. It is a work of righteousness.. or a work of obedience.

You already got.
That's why salvation is a two way street.
It's cooperating with God.

both people do the same works, one does it in sin, and one does it in Honor of God.

A good work could be done in sin??
Could you give an example?

If they are believers, they are already saved, born again from above. Made a child of God. saved forever.

and they do these things out of Gratitude and faith in God

If they do them to get saved, keep saved, or keep from losing salvation. they are believers in their works. not in God.

I pray one day you recognize the difference

Yet they do them all the time

No. How can a baby get saved when he has no capacity to believe?

Huh?

They believe in the trinity too.. That is not what makes us a child of God

John 1: 12 but as many as have received him, to THEM he gave the right to become children..

1. How do we recieve him
2. Will God kick us out of his family after he adopts us since he paid for our adoption with his own blood?

So no Catholic has received Him??

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace lets try to make this simple. I have broken down the words of Jesus below

The words of Jesus. Why does anyone focus on a few words. and not all of them,

lets focus on all the words. and also why do we not focus on the results of those who obey?

so in the following I will show ALL the words Jesus said what he commanded, and what those who obey will recieve


In black is the command

In blue is what the one who follows the command will receive


27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, ,

Command – Labor for this food that Jesus came to give

Result – The food will endure forever


33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

What is this food?

He who comes down from heaven

Result – Life is offered to the world


35: “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

Jesus is the one who came down from heaven He is the bread of life

Command: Come to him –

Result. You will never hunger

Command – Believe

Result – Never thirst


36: the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Command – Come to me

Result – You will never be cast out


39: that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Fact – All who are given to God

Result – Will never be lost, and will be raised on the last day


40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Command – See and believe

Result – You will live forever (eternal life) and you will be raised on the last day


47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

Command – Believe in him

Result – You will live forever (eternal life)


50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.

Command – Eat the bread

Result – you will never die


51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever;

Command – Eat this bread

Result – Live forever



52: and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

What is this bread? My life I give

Result – Life of the world


53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.

Command – Fail to eat the flesh and blood (the bread)

Result – you have no life in you (your dead)


54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Command – Eat my flesh and blood (the bread)

Result – You will live forever (eternal life) and you will be raised on the last day


56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

Command Eat my flesh and drink my blood

Result – You will abide in him, and he will abide in you. As he lives you will live also


57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.

Command – Feed on him

Result – You will live


58: He who eats this bread will live forever.”.

Command – Eat this bread

Result – You will live forever


Jesus came to give life. He said whoever eats this bread (feeds on him ) will get life. So what is it that gives life?

Jesus answers this also

62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

• Jesus said he was the bread sent down from heave
• Jesus asked, what if you see him ascend back to heaven (which many of them would in the future after his death)
• The thing that gives life (the food, the bread, the flesh and blood) is given by the spirit.
• The food which gives life ARE THE WORDS JESUS SPEAKS as given by the spirit

I honestly do not see why people make this conversation so difficult

Jesus said do this, If you do this, i will give you that.

Its simple..

I think some make it difficult because they've studied church history and the early Christians believe in the body and the blood.
This causes one to stop and reconsider and rethink everything.

I'd post some statements, but I know it won't do any good and I'm tired tonight.
If you care to see some...I'll post them in the morning....

But why listen to those that were taught by the Apostles?
What could they possibly know?
It was just the Apostles that taught them...
not anyone important.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Oh wow.
Yeah.
So let's not do any good work because we might be doing it to get something in return.

Please show me where I even hinted that someone can do this

When will you start learning to people and understand what they say through the lens of openness and not through your belief system trying to find flaws in things people say assuming you know what they mean

This just makes you look bad

 

[GodsGrace]

Please show me where I even hinted that someone can do this

When will you start learning to people and understand what they say through the lens of openness and not through your belief system trying to find flaws in things people say assuming you know what they mean

This just makes you look bad

§Why be so insulting?
Why does it make me look bad when YOU are the one that has not understood.

YOU said in post 2605:

If I do them to GET something in return. it is a work - I am doing them to earn something (like salvation or forgiveness of sins)


1. We were discussing communion and baptism.
I made the comment that one has to already be a believer to do either.
It seems you do not agree with this, which means a NON-BELIEVER could receive communion and be baptized?
You've doubled down on this at least twice no.

2. You said that if one does something to get something in return it's a work.

So
This means that before doing ANYTHING good, I'd have to stop and contemplate whether or not I'm doing the good work to get something.

So
I made the sarcastic comment that maybe it's better NOT to do good works, than to have to figure out WHY I'm doing the good work,
and whoa, maybe I'm doing it to get something and I can't be sure so maybe it's better to not do it at all !!

Do you realize how silly your comments are?

I understand what you state very well....

I DO NOT AGREE with what you state.

Do you know the difference between Not understanding a comment
and
Not agreeing with it?

We're to do GOOD WORKS EG...
No questions asked.


Plus, you never replied to an important question,
but, frankly, I don't care anymore because you may not have even understood it.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I think some make it difficult because they've studied church history and the early Christians believe in the body and the blood.
This causes one to stop and reconsider and rethink everything.

I'd post some statements, but I know it won't do any good and I'm tired tonight.
If you care to see some...I'll post them in the morning....

But why listen to those that were taught by the Apostles?
What could they possibly know?
It was just the Apostles that taught them...
not anyone important.

Why listen to men at all

Why can we not just read the words and take them at what they say. All of them

One of the reasons I reject the Catholic Church is I read the word and what the word says and what the church says do not line up. Unless I twist the word. Take resources outside the word. Or ignore much of the word.

I stopped doing this about 15 years ago. I study the word. Study what people say outside the word. Then try to put it together when they do not agree I question them (the people). If they can’t convince me I am seeing something wrong (which many have). I change my view. If they can’t convince not. Mostly because they do not even want to discuss the word just the few word sentences they think proves them right. The. I go with the word

A prime example is seen here

@nedsk wants to focus on 7 words. He will not even look at the rest. No matter how many people try to show him he is closed minded (to be honest it’s not just him almost every Catholic I have ever discussed John 6 with does the same

Or another conversation. Baptism they focus on act 2. They refuse to look elsewhere when others try to show them or James 2 and works. How dare we look to paul

This shuts off communication and only goes to hurt the one refusing to look at the rest. And you see the anger they have when people do Not listen to them

Well why should we?

 

[GodsGrace]

Why listen to men at all

Why can we not just read the words and take them at what they say. All of them

One of the reasons I reject the Catholic Church is I read the word and what the word says and what the church says do not line up. Unless I twist the word. Take resources outside the word. Or ignore much of the word.

I stopped doing this about 15 years ago. I study the word. Study what people say outside the word. Then try to put it together when they do not agree I question them (the people). If they can’t convince me I am seeing something wrong (which many have). I change my view. If they can’t convince not. Mostly because they do not even want to discuss the word just the few word sentences they think proves them right. The. I go with the word

A prime example is seen here

@nedsk wants to focus on 7 words. He will not even look at the rest. No matter how many people try to show him he is closed minded (to be honest it’s not just him almost every Catholic I have ever discussed John 6 with does the same

Or another conversation. Baptism they focus on act 2. They refuse to look elsewhere when others try to show them or James 2 and works. How dare we look to paul

This shuts off communication and only goes to hurt the one refusing to look at the rest. And you see the anger they have when people do Not listen to them

Well why should we?

EG
I agreed with you until I studied some church history.
I say "some" because there is just too much to know and I'm certainly not a scholar.

I find that the ECFs agreed on some topics (not all).
If we don't want to read what those that THE APOSTLES taught,,,then I don't know
why we read anything outside of the bible.

We read many authors that write on the bible.
They didn't KNOW the Apostles, yet we pay attention to what they say.

The ECFs KNEW THE APOSTLES,,,some were taught by John, some by Peter, some by both, etc.
I certainly will read them and take into consideration what they believed to be true.

All the ECFs understood Jesus to be God.
Most of the ECFs understood the host to be the body and blood of Jesus.
So, this could be debated...but it's not something we should be debating so much.
We are each free to believe what we will.

It's not a soteriological issue, which is why I don't care to post on it too much.

We have enough problems trying to agree on how a person is saved and what keeps a person saved.
(as you well know).

Actually, we agree on HOW to become saved...
it's the STAYING saved that we don't agree on.

Doesn't mean either one of us is not saved.
(as you've often accused me).

 

[nedsk]

Why listen to men at all

Why can we not just read the words and take them at what they say. All of them

One of the reasons I reject the Catholic Church is I read the word and what the word says and what the church says do not line up. Unless I twist the word. Take resources outside the word. Or ignore much of the word.

I stopped doing this about 15 years ago. I study the word. Study what people say outside the word. Then try to put it together when they do not agree I question them (the people). If they can’t convince me I am seeing something wrong (which many have). I change my view. If they can’t convince not. Mostly because they do not even want to discuss the word just the few word sentences they think proves them right. The. I go with the word

A prime example is seen here

@nedsk wants to focus on 7 words. He will not even look at the rest. No matter how many people try to show him he is closed minded (to be honest it’s not just him almost every Catholic I have ever discussed John 6 with does the same

Or another conversation. Baptism they focus on act 2. They refuse to look elsewhere when others try to show them or James 2 and works. How dare we look to paul

This shuts off communication and only goes to hurt the one refusing to look at the rest. And you see the anger they have when people do Not listen to them

Well why should we?

The problem is NOTHING you claim I am ignoring negates what those 7 words tell us. It's like the idiocy you people peddle with regards to sola scriptura. You want words to mean things they don't mean. You people seem to think your cashier turned pastor knows more than 1500 years of church history. If IF I am ignoring some words I'm still not you and ignoring 1500 years of teaching. Hilarious

 

[LoveYeshua]

Never heard this reason before.
So you really think Jesus wanted them to not see and not hear??

No not Jesus, GOD chooses who He has given to Jesus who can go to him, for the rest it is not possible it is why they are spiritually blind, and do not understand, I did also explain this a while back

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

 

[nedsk]

No not Jesus, GOD chooses who He has given to Jesus who can go to him, for the rest it is not possible it is why they are spiritually blind, and do not understand, I did also explain this a while back

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

You're not drawn to Jesus who is God btw. Jesus said, eat his flesh and drink his blood and that his flesh is REAL food and his blood is REAL drink. If you were drawn to him you'd believe it. For 1500 years that's what the Christian church believed and taught. You don't.

 

[LoveYeshua]

You're not drawn to Jesus who is God btw. Jesus said, eat his flesh and drink his blood and that his flesh is REAL food and his blood is REAL drink. If you were drawn to him you'd believe it. For 1500 years that's what the Christian church believed and taught. You don't.

ABSURD read scripture again then use your head. You are in danger of losing salvation by professing false doctrine, you are warned. 2 things possible with you. Your heart is made of stone and God blotted out your name from the book of Life or you or you are a troll causing trouble. either way you have a big problem on your hand for judgment day, it is by Jesus words we all will be judged. Jesus words are Life, not cannibalistic ritual practices.

Wake up, end times are upon us all.

 

[nedsk]

ABSURD read scripture again then use your head. You are in danger of losing salvation by professing false doctrine, you are warned. 2 things possible with you. Your heart is made of stone and God blotted out your name from the book of Life or you or you are a troll causing trouble. either way you have a big problem on your hand for judgment day, it is by Jesus words we all will be judged. Jesus words are Life, not cannibalistic ritual practices.

Wake up, end times are upon us all.

I thought you couldnt lose salvation?????? You people just talk to her yourself talk. If anyone should use their head when they read scripture is you but you don't. You've been told what to believe and you bought it hook line and sinker.

 

[Marymog]

I am curious what your take on Pauls Words mean in this passage:

Romans 5​

​

King James Version​

​

​

5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Also remember we were chosen to be in christ before the foundation of the world as Paul wrote in ephesians.

Why would an all knowing God woo us, call us, choose us, justify us give us new birth as His enemies only to cast us out when we become His children??

I would fear being a child of yours.

He doesn't cast His sheep out of His fold. You cast yourself out by sinning, not doing good works etc. If you repent, He then takes you back into His fold......Just like Scripture says.

 

[Marymog]

Now prove you raccusations. don't just accuse, but show your supposed evidence I cherry pick-- But you do as well so you are the pot calling the kettle.

I await your evidence that I am pulling verses out of context.

Sorry you don't believe jesus shed His blood for all your sins.

I asked you one question in that post, and you didn't answer it. Instead, you focused on my accusation. Here is the question again:

Scripture says that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth. What Church did you get your teaching from Ronald?