Why did our Redeemer need to be both God and Man?

[Hiddenthings]

I hope that rush of blood was satisfying for you all.

There are a number of well-known rules when debating of arguing a subject.

The first rule, is to stay on topic and clearly define your terms, being careful not to use language that lacks supporting evidence. As you have all shown when these three basic rules are not upheld you can lose integrity by showing disrespect.

What part of the below interpretation is untrue?

Context is important here. Jesus will be the “mighty God” in the Kingdom Age when he comes in the power and glory of his Father (Matt 16:27). He is fully worthy of this title. Of an angel it was said, “my name is in him” (Exod. 23:21), yet the Son of God has inherited a name far greater than the angels (Heb. 1:4, RSV) and is therefore worthy to carry divine titles. This, however, does not mean he is “Very God,” any more than it did for the angel who bore God’s name before Israel.

That being said, if you held to that (trinitarian) teaching, you would naturally try to make the text support your position, even if it wasn’t the truth.

Going back to the beginning, what we still see is a man who mediates between God and man, yet now this man is exalted to the Father’s right hand and represents Him perfectly.

He still is and will forever be our High Priest who was taken from among men.

Did an angel have God's name in him? Yes
Did Jesus the Son of God inherit a name? Yes
Was he created a little lower than the angels but inherited a position much higher than they? Yes
Is Christ worthy of carrying his Fathers divine titles? Yes

Furthermore, my reply was directed to Quietthinker, and while I don’t mind others jumping all over my replies, I would appreciate the courtesy of addressing the evidence rather than sharing personal opinions.

They are worthless to me in the truest sense.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Ok, the reason had to be God on the cross. And not just some good man.... It's because only God could resurrect.

Jesus said "destroy this temple and in 3 days i will raise it up

Even the disciples understood that.
If you read in Galatians,around chapter 3 or so, It says "for there was no law given that couldn't part life".
Their had to be an importation of life.
No man could resurrect himself.
Only God can do that.

Jesus is the God man.

In Rev 5 this is vividly vividly depicted.
Rev 5 goes back to Ruth.
THE KINSMAN REDEEMER.

Take that bible and switch up all the deity verses.
You Now have ZERO.
NO KINSMAN REDEEMER, AND NO RESURRECTION = NO SALVATION.
SOMEBODY HAD TO RESURRECT.
IT HAD TO BE A MAN.
THAT MAN HAD TO BE GOD.

TAKE THAT AWAY AND THERE IS NO SALVATION.

I just flat out can't believe that effort to muddy up. What the Bible is so clear about? I mean, it takes a lot of work to miss the DIT scriptures. And then when they're pointed out, just switch them up and ignore them and cast them down.

God created man ....Adam.
Adam was a created it being, on a created planet and had no deity whatsoever.
God wanted a people that was a family, and a population of humans.
That was his vision and that was his desire. When Adam sinned ,there was no remedy. Every animal sacrifice was band aid.
Animal sacrifices ,that was innocent blood ,only atoned for Sin.
It could not remove it.
The creation of the tabernacle and the priesthood used innocent blood from animals to atone for Sin and it was sprinkled on the mercy seat but cannot remove sin.
Their had to be a Union of God and man..... and in that union, man that was both God and man had to be sacrificed.

Now what is going on with this spirit that works so hard discredit the testimony of heaven and what God did ?????
what is going on with that spirit that hates the deity of Jesus.?????
Hates , that Jesus is the creator and hates that Jesus is deity. ????
That is a spirit and it comes from the devil, and is birthed in hell ,and there's people on here that are promoting it.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@quietthinker, you may not agree with me, but when you review the others response's above, do you think it does their beliefs any justice?

The prophecy does not have trinitarian formula as its context, and I think if you studied that section this would become very clear.

Two minds can read the words, “Everlasting Father” and be poles apart in their understanding.

In his future reign as King, Christ will rightly bear the title “everlasting Father,” and for profound reasons.

First, he will be a true father to the mortal nations in the Kingdom Age. Isaiah foretold: “He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah… and they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father’s house” (Isa 22:21–24). Just as a father guides his children with wisdom, justice, and strength, so Christ will govern the nations with perfect knowledge, righteousness, and might (Isa 11).

The Apostle Paul makes this parallel unmistakable, describing his own care for believers: “I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you… ye have not many fathers” (1 Cor. 4:14–15), and “As a father doth his children, so we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you” (1 Thess. 2:11).

Second, while believers are often called “brethren” (1 Thess. 2:14; Heb. 2:11), they are rightly called Christ’s children: “I and the children which God hath given me” (Heb. 2:13; cf. Isa. 8:17–18). Through Christ, they are born anew (John 3:3,7), and he is their true Father. This is the seed Christ will see and take delight in (Read Isa 53:10–11), fulfilling the promise of God’s plan for salvation. Even Psalm 45, in its Messianic context (Heb 1:8–9; Psa. 45:16), confirms the honor and fatherly authority of Christ.

In short, Christ is not merely a king; he is the eternal Father of nations and of believers alike, guiding, providing, and delighting in those given to him by God. To recognize him as the “Everlasting Father” is to understand the full scope of his authority, care, and eternal purpose.
45:16). The Messianic nature of this psalm is underscored in verses 6 and in Hebrews 1:8–9, where it is explicitly applied to Christ.

Nowhere does the context of this prophecy suggest Messiah would be Very God.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I hope that rush of blood was satisfying for you all.

There are a number of well-known rules when debating of arguing a subject.

The first rule, is to stay on topic and clearly define your terms, being careful not to use language that lacks supporting evidence. As you have all shown when these three basic rules are not upheld you can lose integrity by showing disrespect.

What part of the below interpretation is untrue?



Did an angel have God's name in him? Yes
Did Jesus the Son of God inherit a name? Yes
Was he created a little lower than the angels but inherited a position much higher than they? Yes
Is Christ worthy of carrying his Fathers divine titles? Yes

Furthermore, my reply was directed to Quietthinker, and while I don’t mind others jumping all over my replies, I would appreciate the courtesy of addressing the evidence rather than sharing personal opinions.

They are worthless to me in the truest sense.

you failed to answer my question

will or did a mere human become God.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I hope that rush of blood was satisfying for you all.

There are a number of well-known rules when debating of arguing a subject.

The first rule, is to stay on topic and clearly define your terms, being careful not to use language that lacks supporting evidence. As you have all shown when these three basic rules are not upheld you can lose integrity by showing disrespect.

What part of the below interpretation is untrue?



Did an angel have God's name in him? Yes
Did Jesus the Son of God inherit a name? Yes
Was he created a little lower than the angels but inherited a position much higher than they? Yes
Is Christ worthy of carrying his Fathers divine titles? Yes

Furthermore, my reply was directed to Quietthinker, and while I don’t mind others jumping all over my replies, I would appreciate the courtesy of addressing the evidence rather than sharing personal opinions.

They are worthless to me in the truest sense.

Angels are created.
Jesus is the creator
You have no salvation according to your doctrine.
Watchtower followers are not saved by Jesus

They boldly proclaim that.

 

[rebuilder 454]

@quietthinker, you may not agree with me, but when you review the others response's above, do you think it does their beliefs any justice?

The prophecy does not have trinitarian formula as its context, and I think if you studied that section this would become very clear.

Two minds can read the words, “Everlasting Father” and be poles apart in their understanding.

In his future reign as King, Christ will rightly bear the title “everlasting Father,” and for profound reasons.

First, he will be a true father to the mortal nations in the Kingdom Age. Isaiah foretold: “He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah… and they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father’s house” (Isa 22:21–24). Just as a father guides his children with wisdom, justice, and strength, so Christ will govern the nations with perfect knowledge, righteousness, and might (Isa 11).

The Apostle Paul makes this parallel unmistakable, describing his own care for believers: “I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you… ye have not many fathers” (1 Cor. 4:14–15), and “As a father doth his children, so we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you” (1 Thess. 2:11).

Second, while believers are often called “brethren” (1 Thess. 2:14; Heb. 2:11), they are rightly called Christ’s children: “I and the children which God hath given me” (Heb. 2:13; cf. Isa. 8:17–18). Through Christ, they are born anew (John 3:3,7), and he is their true Father. This is the seed Christ will see and take delight in (Read Isa 53:10–11), fulfilling the promise of God’s plan for salvation. Even Psalm 45, in its Messianic context (Heb 1:8–9; Psa. 45:16), confirms the honor and fatherly authority of Christ.

In short, Christ is not merely a king; he is the eternal Father of nations and of believers alike, guiding, providing, and delighting in those given to him by God. To recognize him as the “Everlasting Father” is to understand the full scope of his authority, care, and eternal purpose.
45:16). The Messianic nature of this psalm is underscored in verses 6 and in Hebrews 1:8–9, where it is explicitly applied to Christ.

Nowhere does the context of this prophecy suggest Messiah would be Very God.

One thing you can not twist.
Jesus is creator.

Ask your workbook how Jesus created himself.

 

[Hiddenthings]

you failed to answer my question

will or did a mere human become God.

Quiet and I are discussing Isaiah 9:5-7 - are you referencing the same passage?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Imagine the Lord Jesus, who willingly set aside the blessing of a family to suffer in the flesh (Hebrews 2:14–18; Philippians 2:5–8), now awaiting his return, when God (His God) will give him children (Hebrews 2:13).

The Apostle Paul regarded the children God entrusted to him as his own sons and daughters, nurturing and caring for them with great love (1 Thessalonians 2:7–8; 1 Corinthians 4:14–15). Yet, we have not yet fully witnessed that same tender care from the Master as a father figure. He was raised up out of man as a lamb and will return as a Father lion.

It is only fitting, is it not, that he who secured the eternal covenant through his own blood (Hebrews 9:12–15) would also provide eternal redemption for himself and the children God entrusts to him (Hebrews 2:10; Revelation 22:5)

Not a hope for all - but for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear it's a stirring vision.

 

[jaybird]

Jesus didnt "need" to be G-D and man. Jews never believed this and it was never a controversy until over a hundred years after Jesus meaning few believed it at the time

 

[Hiddenthings]

In Isaiah 22:23, I (Yahweh) will fasten him (Jesus) like a peg in a secure place; he will become a throne of honor to his father's house."

The “peg” imagery points to someone God firmly establishes. In a messianic sense, Jesus is that ultimate “peg”, securely set by God to uphold His kingdom. Just as a peg stabilizes a structure, the Messiah stabilizes God’s plan of salvation (Psalm 110:1; Isaiah 9:6–7).

It's all there dear readers, should you wish to read with understanding.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Quiet and I are discussing Isaiah 9:5-7 - are you referencing the same passage?

I am discussing your post # 130 where you seem to declare that Jesus will become God in the kingdom.

again, can you please answer my question

 

[Eternally Grateful]

In Isaiah 22:23, I (Yahweh) will fasten him (Jesus) like a peg in a secure place; he will become a throne of honor to his father's house."

The “peg” imagery points to someone God firmly establishes. In a messianic sense, Jesus is that ultimate “peg”, securely set by God to uphold His kingdom. Just as a peg stabilizes a structure, the Messiah stabilizes God’s plan of salvation (Psalm 110:1; Isaiah 9:6–7).

It's all there dear readers, should you wish to read with understanding.

the God of Israel speaks in Is 48: 12

Isaiah 48: 12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. 13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together. 14 '"All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. 15 I, even I, have spoken; Yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper. 16 Come ye near unto me, Hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I, and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

So if it is not the lord God (the father) or the spirit (holy Spirit) speaking. who spoke these words to the prophet?


as you just said

It's all there dear readers, should you wish to read with understanding.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

He didn't.

Hebrews 5:1 “For every high priest chosen from among men is appointed to act on behalf of men in relation to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.”

Jesus as high priest:- The author outlines the qualifications of Jesus for this role by first examining the office and its nature as described in the Old Testament Scriptures, and then demonstrating how Jesus perfectly fulfills those same requirements.

If you can show me anywhere in the OT or NT that Christ was God or had to be God - well good luck!

Jesus is our fully-human high priest, whom the writer describes in contrast to human high priests. Yes, @Hiddenthings, he is. But I will show you that he is also fully-God, a theme throughout the Gospel of John, which starts out to highlight that spiritual fact:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

This reference is parallel with Genesis 1:1, of course, which refers to the beginning of creation: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." Therefore, the Word is with God and is God as the Father's agent to create all things. You have to realize that the three Persons of the one God are all equal in status ("the Word was God") with different roles ("the Word was with God") with the Word performing the Father's work of creating with the Spirit as the direct Doer (Genesis 1:2b--"And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.").

Jesus claims to be God with the Father several times in John's gospel. Either he is mentally ill, or he is God in those claims. Since God has inspired the Bible, I believe the former to be true, as a liberal scholar, who didn't believe in the Bible's inspiration and whose commentary I read on the gospel said, at the end of his book, "John believed in the Trinity [the 3-in-1 nature of God]."

Joh 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one.”
Joh 10:31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him.

Here Jesus claims to have equal status with the divine Father in verse 30, as the Jews knew well (verse 31), but he also says in verse 29 that the Father and he have different functions. Yet, the Father has given believers, the sheep, to him; and he will raise (resurrect) them, a divine action, on the last day, of course, when he comes back, as he says here:

Jhn_6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Jhn_6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

This post is too long already. I haven't even gotten to Jesus' seven "I am" claims of Jesus, in which he directly claims to be the God of Moses' burning bush (Exodus 3):

Exo 3:13 Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?”
Exo 3:14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

However, only one "I am" claim from John 10 will be sufficient:

Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

Jesus is obviously claiming to be David's divine Shepherd, even though David has been raised as a shepherd:

Psa 23:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.

I can't resist quoting in conclusion Paul's observation in Colossians 1, which clearly shows Jesus' full deity and humanity:

Col 1:19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

 

[Grailhunter]

A couple questions: Do you worship Mary? Why do you pray to and praise Mary when Jesus said to pray to "our Father in heaven" in the Lord's Prayer?

Jesus had to be fully human to die as our Substitute on the cross and fully divine to rise from the dead to give us his resurrection power to live for him.

Pardon me....
I love Christians....which means I love Protestants, Catholics, and Mormons too. Do Protestants, Catholics, and Mormons have unusual beliefs? YES. The fact that there are over 30,000 Protestant denominations does not add confidence that they ever got it right. More like shooting in the dark.

But just so you know Catholics do not worship Miriam....they do pray to her and even Apostles. The bigger problem is the number of Protestants that do not worship the Lord. I try to picture the Protestants in their Lazy-boys on Sunday worshiping the Lord. The early Christians risked their lives to go to "church" and worship the Lord. Now a days you would have to use a cattle prod to get them out of their Lazy-boys to go to church. They will even argue with you for the need to go to church.

Your answer to the question posed by the thread is as good as commonly believed but not correct.
God gave His Son.
Miriam gave her Son.
The Son of God.
The Son of Man.

 

[amigo de christo]

Great another all inclusiviain , whats next muslims and buddists and atheists are now all our brothers and sisters too .
My goodness folks , WHEN does this madness end .
MORMONS , really grailhunter . REALLY . this madness must stop .
I will list just a few places
that all must stay out and or get out of and fast . THE RCC , FLEE it
Mormonism , FLEE it , nar realm , FLEE IT
progressive liberal realm FLEE IT , JW , flee it , SDA , flee it
OH my this list is gonna be long . JUST GET BACK INTO THE BIBLE for ourselves and fast , please , please hurry .

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings rebuilder 454,

This is a Christian site.
You are a heretic.
Your doctrine is a lie.

Hidden things doctrine is 100% watchtower lies.
I have no idea why they are allowed in here.

I notice that @Hiddenthings also claims to be a Christian, and if you have followed some of his earlier threads you will discover that he is not a JW. I agree with his view that there is only one God, the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, now exalted to sit at the right hand of God, in God the Father's Throne, and Jesus is the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection. I appreciate the tolerance of this Forum to allow a range of beliefs, to discuss these openly and sensibly, as by comparison I have been banned from a number of other forums mainly because I do not accept the Trinity.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Hiddenthings]

the God of Israel speaks in Is 48: 12

Isaiah 48: 12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. 13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together. 14 '"All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. 15 I, even I, have spoken; Yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper. 16 Come ye near unto me, Hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I, and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

So if it is not the lord God (the father) or the spirit (holy Spirit) speaking. who spoke these words to the prophet?


as you just said

It's all there dear readers, should you wish to read with understanding.

Good question

Compare Isaiah 61:1 and 11:2. “For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without measure” (John 3:34; cf. John 7:33, 37–39).

 

[Hiddenthings]

you failed to answer my question

will or did a mere human become God.

Jesus was far more than an ordinary man—for His very conception was by the power of the Holy Spirit, a beginning no one else can claim. Yet, in His own words, He identified Himself as the Son of Man, humbling Himself as a servant and giving His life for all. But consider this: can God highly exalt a man? Will He also exalt you? And will the glory bestowed upon Christ be shared with those who belong to Him?

Will you be like him? In what way can it be said you will become Christ in the Kingdom age? It's not difficult for you to understand how Jesus can represent God on earth and carry his titles.

Hope that helps

 

[quietthinker]

Context is important here. Jesus will be the “mighty God” in the Kingdom Age when he comes in the power and glory of his Father (Matt 16:27). He is fully worthy of this title. Of an angel it was said, “my name is in him” (Exod. 23:21), yet the Son of God has inherited a name far greater than the angels (Heb. 1:4, RSV) and is therefore worthy to carry divine titles. This, however, does not mean he is “Very God,” any more than it did for the angel who bore God’s name before Israel.

That being said, if you held to that (trinitarian) teaching, you would naturally try to make the text support your position, even if it wasn’t the truth.

Going back to the beginning, what we still see is a man who mediates between God and man, yet now this man is exalted to the Father’s right hand and represents Him perfectly.

He still is and will forever be our High Priest who was taken from among men.

Sounds like a convoluted reply for a straightforward text.

 

[quietthinker]

@quietthinker, you may not agree with me, but when you review the others response's above, do you think it does their beliefs any justice?

The prophecy does not have trinitarian formula as its context, and I think if you studied that section this would become very clear.

Two minds can read the words, “Everlasting Father” and be poles apart in their understanding.

In his future reign as King, Christ will rightly bear the title “everlasting Father,” and for profound reasons.

First, he will be a true father to the mortal nations in the Kingdom Age. Isaiah foretold: “He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah… and they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father’s house” (Isa 22:21–24). Just as a father guides his children with wisdom, justice, and strength, so Christ will govern the nations with perfect knowledge, righteousness, and might (Isa 11).

The Apostle Paul makes this parallel unmistakable, describing his own care for believers: “I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you… ye have not many fathers” (1 Cor. 4:14–15), and “As a father doth his children, so we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you” (1 Thess. 2:11).

Second, while believers are often called “brethren” (1 Thess. 2:14; Heb. 2:11), they are rightly called Christ’s children: “I and the children which God hath given me” (Heb. 2:13; cf. Isa. 8:17–18). Through Christ, they are born anew (John 3:3,7), and he is their true Father. This is the seed Christ will see and take delight in (Read Isa 53:10–11), fulfilling the promise of God’s plan for salvation. Even Psalm 45, in its Messianic context (Heb 1:8–9; Psa. 45:16), confirms the honor and fatherly authority of Christ.

In short, Christ is not merely a king; he is the eternal Father of nations and of believers alike, guiding, providing, and delighting in those given to him by God. To recognize him as the “Everlasting Father” is to understand the full scope of his authority, care, and eternal purpose.
45:16). The Messianic nature of this psalm is underscored in verses 6 and in Hebrews 1:8–9, where it is explicitly applied to Christ.

Nowhere does the context of this prophecy suggest Messiah would be Very God.

More convolution.