Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
wow lets save ourselves.
I mean doing works of the law can not save. But if we do these works. well God will make an exception and accept them as a means of salvation
The Baptism That Saves: What Most People Miss in Acts 11:16
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I mean doing works of the law can not save. But if we do these works. well God will make an exception and accept them as a means of salvation
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
yet when we take it with Col 2. we see it is by one spirit.. the one who raised him from the dead.
12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
the spiritual circumcision/baptism done without hands..
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Do you understand the significance of water baptism to the Jews in particular?
Much love!
Most modern Bibles follow the Latin Vulgate’s order, devised by Jerome (A.D. 382–429). However, this arrangement is not based on original manuscript tradition but on Jerome’s preferences, which favored Gentile writings and the authority of the Western Church.
Scholars, including those involved in the 1881 Revised Version (Westcott & Hort), recognized that the early Greek manuscripts placed the seven “Catholic Epistles” (James, Peter, John, Jude) before Paul’s letters. This order aligns with principles of progressive revelation and eldership, since the authors of these epistles were apostles before Paul and had known Jesus personally.
Jerome’s reordering elevated Paul’s epistles (especially to Gentiles) to promote Roman primacy in the Church. This diminished the standing of Peter and the Jewish apostles, though Peter was regarded as the first Bishop of Rome. Western church leaders — including Rufinus, Innocent I, and Gelasius — supported Jerome’s order to reinforce Rome’s ecclesiastical authority.
Early manuscripts, however, consistently place the general epistles first, honoring the Jewish apostles’ seniority. Paul himself acknowledged this: he referred to James, Peter, and John as “pillars” (Gal. 2:9), and described himself as “least of the apostles” (1 Cor. 15:9) and “less than the least of all saints” (Eph. 3:8).
Paul affirmed the Jewish priority in receiving the Gospel (Rom. 1:16, 2:10, 3:1–2). In his missions, he always went to the Jews first — in Cyprus, Galatia, Macedonia, Corinth, Ephesus, and Rome — and only turned to the Gentiles when the Jews rejected the message. This mirrors the pattern in Acts: the Gospel began in Jerusalem and spread to Rome, moving from Jew to Gentile.
The canon’s structure also reflects how early Christians understood the process of conversion. In Hebrews 6:1–2, Paul outlines seven stages of Christian development:
Repentance from dead works
Faith in God
Doctrine of baptisms
Laying on of hands (receiving the Holy Spirit)
Resurrection of the dead
Eternal judgment
Perfection (salvation)
These steps also structure Paul's theology, particularly in Romans—his first canonical epistle—progressing from repentance and faith (Romans 1–5), to baptism (Romans 6–7), to the Holy Spirit (Romans 8), resurrection and judgment (Romans 9–11), and finally perfection (Romans 11:25).
A similar progression is seen in 1 Corinthians, which emphasizes later stages—especially the Holy Spirit (ch. 12–14) and resurrection (ch. 15)—with earlier topics like repentance and faith receiving less focus. Other letters expand on these themes: Ephesians, Philippians, and Colossians target mature believers, with teachings on spiritual maturity and unity in Christ (Ephesians 4:12–14).
This pedagogical structure continues across the canon. The four Gospels present Christ from Jewish to universal perspectives: Matthew (Jewish focus), Mark (Jewish/Gentile), Luke (Gentile/Jewish), and John (universal). After Acts, the general epistles provide foundational teachings before Paul’s epistles expand into deeper theology. The Book of Revelation concludes with prophetic fulfillment.
Paul’s early letters (Romans, Corinthians, Galatians) were written to spiritual “children,” new in the faith. Romans was for people Paul had never taught. Corinthians, whom he taught for 18 months, still acted immaturely (1 Corinthians 3:1–2). Galatians were regressing into legalism and "grade school" teachings. In contrast, Ephesians, Philippians, and Colossians were addressed to mature believers ready for deeper truths.
The progression of Paul’s epistles reflects a deepening of spiritual knowledge. His earlier letters (Romans, Corinthians, Galatians) offer foundational doctrines—the “ABCs” of the faith. Later epistles (Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians) present more advanced teaching—the “XYZs.” The Thessalonian letters focus on end-time events, culminating in the mature doctrinal insights of Hebrews, which addresses perfection in Christ and the heavenly kingdom. Paul's pastoral epistles provide guidance for mature ministers. Revelation, placed last, brings finality to the Bible, addressing the end of the age in the most complex theological terms.
Progressive Revelation in God’s Laws
Many assume God’s Law is eternal and unchangeable, but Scripture shows otherwise. God's laws have changed numerous times throughout history—progressively revealed in response to different covenantal contexts:
From Adam to Noah, few laws existed.
From Abraham to Moses, new rituals (e.g., circumcision) were introduced.
Under Moses, law became extensive and ceremonial, with sacrifices, holy days, and temple rites.
Jesus introduced a new covenant based on grace, not Mosaic law.
Examples of Changed or Abolished Laws
God repeatedly altered laws:
Sacrifices moved from anywhere (Patriarchs) to being centralized under Aaron (Moses).
Images were banned in the Ten Commandments, yet allowed in the Tabernacle.
Sabbath observance was unknown before Moses.
Marriage laws also changed (e.g., Abraham married his half-sister; Moses later forbade it).
Even parts of the Ten Commandments were revised:
The generational punishment in the Second Commandment was abolished (Ezekiel 18).
Sabbath regulations were detailed and later fulfilled in Christ.
Stealing, coveting, and adultery were contextually interpreted under warfare and polygamy.
God's Authority to Change Laws
Scripture explicitly states that God gave Israel “laws that were not good” as a judgment (Ezekiel 20:25–26). This demonstrates God's sovereign authority to revise His laws based on His purposes.
Misconceptions About “Law of God” vs. “Law of Moses”
Some claim the Ten Commandments are “God’s Law,” while other commands are “Moses’ Law.” However, the Bible itself equates the two. For example, sacrifices are called both “Law of Moses” and “Law of the Lord” (Luke 2:22–24, 39).
The Bible presents a clear pattern of progressive revelation, with God altering laws and covenants over time. His character remains unchanged, but His legal requirements have adapted to different stages of redemption history. Believers today live under a new covenant based on grace, not the letter of the Mosaic law.
The Law of God, first codified by Moses, was not static. The Bible shows that under divine instruction, figures like Samuel (1 Sam. 10:25) and Joshua (Josh. 24:26) added to it. Ezra later edited and added to the Law when canonizing the Old Testament. These developments were part of God’s pattern of progressive revelation, showing that laws could be modified, expanded, or fulfilled as God saw fit.
Christ’s earthly ministry did not initiate Christianity as we know it. Instead, it was the culmination and magnification of the Mosaic Law, intended solely for Israel. Jesus emphasized the heart and spirit behind the law (e.g., Mat. 5:27–28), showing that law-keeping could never bring salvation. His death and resurrection marked the true beginning of the New Covenant and Christian salvation — not by law, but by grace through faith (John 1:17; Gal. 2:20).
Paul’s gospel diverged sharply from Jesus’ earlier teachings to Israel under the Old Covenant. Paul emphasized that salvation came only through Christ’s death and resurrection, not through the commands Jesus gave during His life. He argued that post-resurrection, believers no longer relate to Christ "after the flesh" (2 Cor. 5:16).
Initially, the Gospel was preached only to Jews (Matt. 10:5–6; Acts 2–3). The inclusion of Gentiles did not begin until Peter's vision and the conversion of Cornelius (Acts 10), a "God-fearer" familiar with Jewish customs. This paved the way for Paul’s ministry, which taught that Gentiles must be spiritually grafted into Israel to partake in the New Covenant (Rom. 11; Gal. 3:26–29; Eph. 2:11–12).
According to Paul, Gentiles could not be saved as Gentiles; they had to become spiritual Israelites, being "in Christ" who is the true Seed of Abraham. This allowed them to inherit the promises originally given only to Israel (Jer. 31:31–34).
A major theological conflict arose: Should Gentile converts adopt Jewish customs like circumcision, Sabbath-keeping, and dietary laws? Paul strongly opposed requiring such observances for salvation, a stance detailed in Acts, Galatians, and Corinthians. He emphasized freedom from the Law, asserting that the new life in Christ replaces the old written code with the unwritten law of the Spirit engraved on believers' hearts.
What Are the Teachings of "The Mystery"?
The first principle of "the Mystery" is that since 63 C.E., Christians are no longer considered as Jews or Gentiles in God's eyes. Initially, Jewish and Gentile Christians had different religious obligations, but the New Covenant replaced the Law of Moses with faith and love. Baptism and the Lord’s Supper became the primary observances. "The Mystery" introduces a new legal status for Christians, where both Jews and Gentiles are unified as one body in Christ.
Christ’s Actions and Our Legal Standing
Christ's acts, like His circumcision, baptism, death, and resurrection, are imputed to Christians. When Christ was baptized and crucified, Christians were spiritually "in Christ," legally sharing in these events. Through His resurrection, Christians are also considered raised with Him (Colossians 3:1).
Are you beginning to see... When Jesus was baptized... so were you in God's eyes!!!
Scholars, including those involved in the 1881 Revised Version (Westcott & Hort), recognized that the early Greek manuscripts placed the seven “Catholic Epistles” (James, Peter, John, Jude) before Paul’s letters. This order aligns with principles of progressive revelation and eldership, since the authors of these epistles were apostles before Paul and had known Jesus personally.
Jerome’s reordering elevated Paul’s epistles (especially to Gentiles) to promote Roman primacy in the Church. This diminished the standing of Peter and the Jewish apostles, though Peter was regarded as the first Bishop of Rome. Western church leaders — including Rufinus, Innocent I, and Gelasius — supported Jerome’s order to reinforce Rome’s ecclesiastical authority.
Early manuscripts, however, consistently place the general epistles first, honoring the Jewish apostles’ seniority. Paul himself acknowledged this: he referred to James, Peter, and John as “pillars” (Gal. 2:9), and described himself as “least of the apostles” (1 Cor. 15:9) and “less than the least of all saints” (Eph. 3:8).
Paul affirmed the Jewish priority in receiving the Gospel (Rom. 1:16, 2:10, 3:1–2). In his missions, he always went to the Jews first — in Cyprus, Galatia, Macedonia, Corinth, Ephesus, and Rome — and only turned to the Gentiles when the Jews rejected the message. This mirrors the pattern in Acts: the Gospel began in Jerusalem and spread to Rome, moving from Jew to Gentile.
The canon’s structure also reflects how early Christians understood the process of conversion. In Hebrews 6:1–2, Paul outlines seven stages of Christian development:
Repentance from dead works
Faith in God
Doctrine of baptisms
Laying on of hands (receiving the Holy Spirit)
Resurrection of the dead
Eternal judgment
Perfection (salvation)
These steps also structure Paul's theology, particularly in Romans—his first canonical epistle—progressing from repentance and faith (Romans 1–5), to baptism (Romans 6–7), to the Holy Spirit (Romans 8), resurrection and judgment (Romans 9–11), and finally perfection (Romans 11:25).
A similar progression is seen in 1 Corinthians, which emphasizes later stages—especially the Holy Spirit (ch. 12–14) and resurrection (ch. 15)—with earlier topics like repentance and faith receiving less focus. Other letters expand on these themes: Ephesians, Philippians, and Colossians target mature believers, with teachings on spiritual maturity and unity in Christ (Ephesians 4:12–14).
This pedagogical structure continues across the canon. The four Gospels present Christ from Jewish to universal perspectives: Matthew (Jewish focus), Mark (Jewish/Gentile), Luke (Gentile/Jewish), and John (universal). After Acts, the general epistles provide foundational teachings before Paul’s epistles expand into deeper theology. The Book of Revelation concludes with prophetic fulfillment.
Paul’s early letters (Romans, Corinthians, Galatians) were written to spiritual “children,” new in the faith. Romans was for people Paul had never taught. Corinthians, whom he taught for 18 months, still acted immaturely (1 Corinthians 3:1–2). Galatians were regressing into legalism and "grade school" teachings. In contrast, Ephesians, Philippians, and Colossians were addressed to mature believers ready for deeper truths.
The progression of Paul’s epistles reflects a deepening of spiritual knowledge. His earlier letters (Romans, Corinthians, Galatians) offer foundational doctrines—the “ABCs” of the faith. Later epistles (Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians) present more advanced teaching—the “XYZs.” The Thessalonian letters focus on end-time events, culminating in the mature doctrinal insights of Hebrews, which addresses perfection in Christ and the heavenly kingdom. Paul's pastoral epistles provide guidance for mature ministers. Revelation, placed last, brings finality to the Bible, addressing the end of the age in the most complex theological terms.
Progressive Revelation in God’s Laws
Many assume God’s Law is eternal and unchangeable, but Scripture shows otherwise. God's laws have changed numerous times throughout history—progressively revealed in response to different covenantal contexts:
From Adam to Noah, few laws existed.
From Abraham to Moses, new rituals (e.g., circumcision) were introduced.
Under Moses, law became extensive and ceremonial, with sacrifices, holy days, and temple rites.
Jesus introduced a new covenant based on grace, not Mosaic law.
Examples of Changed or Abolished Laws
God repeatedly altered laws:
Sacrifices moved from anywhere (Patriarchs) to being centralized under Aaron (Moses).
Images were banned in the Ten Commandments, yet allowed in the Tabernacle.
Sabbath observance was unknown before Moses.
Marriage laws also changed (e.g., Abraham married his half-sister; Moses later forbade it).
Even parts of the Ten Commandments were revised:
The generational punishment in the Second Commandment was abolished (Ezekiel 18).
Sabbath regulations were detailed and later fulfilled in Christ.
Stealing, coveting, and adultery were contextually interpreted under warfare and polygamy.
God's Authority to Change Laws
Scripture explicitly states that God gave Israel “laws that were not good” as a judgment (Ezekiel 20:25–26). This demonstrates God's sovereign authority to revise His laws based on His purposes.
Misconceptions About “Law of God” vs. “Law of Moses”
Some claim the Ten Commandments are “God’s Law,” while other commands are “Moses’ Law.” However, the Bible itself equates the two. For example, sacrifices are called both “Law of Moses” and “Law of the Lord” (Luke 2:22–24, 39).
The Bible presents a clear pattern of progressive revelation, with God altering laws and covenants over time. His character remains unchanged, but His legal requirements have adapted to different stages of redemption history. Believers today live under a new covenant based on grace, not the letter of the Mosaic law.
The Law of God, first codified by Moses, was not static. The Bible shows that under divine instruction, figures like Samuel (1 Sam. 10:25) and Joshua (Josh. 24:26) added to it. Ezra later edited and added to the Law when canonizing the Old Testament. These developments were part of God’s pattern of progressive revelation, showing that laws could be modified, expanded, or fulfilled as God saw fit.
Christ’s earthly ministry did not initiate Christianity as we know it. Instead, it was the culmination and magnification of the Mosaic Law, intended solely for Israel. Jesus emphasized the heart and spirit behind the law (e.g., Mat. 5:27–28), showing that law-keeping could never bring salvation. His death and resurrection marked the true beginning of the New Covenant and Christian salvation — not by law, but by grace through faith (John 1:17; Gal. 2:20).
Paul’s gospel diverged sharply from Jesus’ earlier teachings to Israel under the Old Covenant. Paul emphasized that salvation came only through Christ’s death and resurrection, not through the commands Jesus gave during His life. He argued that post-resurrection, believers no longer relate to Christ "after the flesh" (2 Cor. 5:16).
Initially, the Gospel was preached only to Jews (Matt. 10:5–6; Acts 2–3). The inclusion of Gentiles did not begin until Peter's vision and the conversion of Cornelius (Acts 10), a "God-fearer" familiar with Jewish customs. This paved the way for Paul’s ministry, which taught that Gentiles must be spiritually grafted into Israel to partake in the New Covenant (Rom. 11; Gal. 3:26–29; Eph. 2:11–12).
According to Paul, Gentiles could not be saved as Gentiles; they had to become spiritual Israelites, being "in Christ" who is the true Seed of Abraham. This allowed them to inherit the promises originally given only to Israel (Jer. 31:31–34).
A major theological conflict arose: Should Gentile converts adopt Jewish customs like circumcision, Sabbath-keeping, and dietary laws? Paul strongly opposed requiring such observances for salvation, a stance detailed in Acts, Galatians, and Corinthians. He emphasized freedom from the Law, asserting that the new life in Christ replaces the old written code with the unwritten law of the Spirit engraved on believers' hearts.
What Are the Teachings of "The Mystery"?
The first principle of "the Mystery" is that since 63 C.E., Christians are no longer considered as Jews or Gentiles in God's eyes. Initially, Jewish and Gentile Christians had different religious obligations, but the New Covenant replaced the Law of Moses with faith and love. Baptism and the Lord’s Supper became the primary observances. "The Mystery" introduces a new legal status for Christians, where both Jews and Gentiles are unified as one body in Christ.
Christ’s Actions and Our Legal Standing
Christ's acts, like His circumcision, baptism, death, and resurrection, are imputed to Christians. When Christ was baptized and crucified, Christians were spiritually "in Christ," legally sharing in these events. Through His resurrection, Christians are also considered raised with Him (Colossians 3:1).
Are you beginning to see... When Jesus was baptized... so were you in God's eyes!!!
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
“And you, that were [at one time] alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel…” (Col 1:21-23, KJV)
Suit yourself.
I will believe and obey the Bible.
“For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts…” (Rom 2:14-15, KJV)
Saved individuals have the law written in their hearts. What kind of works do you suppose they will naturally do?
Suit yourself.
I will believe and obey the Bible.
“For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts…” (Rom 2:14-15, KJV)
Saved individuals have the law written in their hearts. What kind of works do you suppose they will naturally do?
Going back to John's baptisms which were immersion in water, and called the "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" (Mark 1:4). And then to Acts 2:38 which says "be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins", the difference being in the name of Jesus Christ, which means by the authority of Jesus Christ. See the similarity, eh? And no, you're not baptized into water, you're immersed in water, by which you're baptized into Christ by virtue thereof. There's no denying that the medium is water when all pertinent scriptures are taken into consideration.
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You must be a Oneness Pentecostal who deny the Trinity and twist verses to force a man-made doctrine. May be should actually read what I wrote and am writing now.
You need to apologize for the lies you are telling. I did read your post, and brushing what I wrote off as "feelings" instead of Scripture is lying. I am not following men, I am standing on what the Bible itself says. Salvation is by grace through faith in Christ alone (Ephesians 2:8–9), not by water. Baptism is commanded, but it comes after salvation, it does not bring it. Paul said it is the Spirit who puts us into the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13), not water. Peter said baptism saves, but right then and there limited it so that it is not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, not the water itself, but the answer of a good conscience toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 3:21). You are twisting God's Word to make water the cause of salvation, when Scripture plainly points to Christ and His resurrection as the only saving power. So don't accuse me of ignoring your post, and don't pretend I'm dealing in "feelings." I read it, I answered it with Scripture, and you are still wrong. You owe an apology for bearing false witness.
You’re wrong, and here’s why. You keep trying to pit Acts against Matthew, but Scripture never contradicts itself. Jesus Himself commanded baptism “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (Matthew 28:19). The apostles did not disobey that. When Acts says they baptized “in the name of Jesus Christ” (Acts 2:38, Acts 10:48, Acts 19:5), it’s not a different formula, it’s the application of Matthew 28:19. The “name” is singular, because all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus (Colossians 2:9). To baptize in His name is to baptize in the authority of the Father, Son, and Spirit.
And stop twisting Matthew 21:19. That’s about Jesus cursing a barren fig tree as a sign of judgment on unbelieving Israel. It has nothing to do with baptism. Dragging it into this discussion just shows you’re grabbing at straws to defend your error.
The apostles never disobeyed Christ. They were Spirit-led in everything they preached and did (Acts 1:2, John 14:26). The only one disobeying is you, by refusing to accept the plain words of Jesus and forcing your own ideas into the text.
So no, it’s not “traditions of men” to believe Matthew 28:19. It’s the literal command of Christ. Twisting Acts to erase it doesn’t make you right, it just shows you don’t want the whole counsel of God’s Word.
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Yes, Jesus said “baptize them,” but the them in Matthew 28:19 is not random people, it is those already made disciples through the gospel. The order is clear: make disciples, then baptize them, then teach them to obey. Acts 2:41 confirms it: “Then they that gladly received his word were baptized.” Your wording sounds right, but your meaning is wrong, because you're using "baptize them" to imply baptism creates disciples. Scripture never says that. Discipleship comes through repentance and faith in Christ, and baptism follows as obedience, not as the cause.
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The significance was not just cultural for the Jews, it was spiritual for all believers. The Bible never portrays water baptism as a Jewish tradition, but as a command of Christ for His church. Jesus commissioned us to baptize all nations in Matthew 28:19, not just Jews, and Acts demonstrates Gentiles being baptized after believing (Acts 10:48). Romans 6:3–4 tells us that baptism identifies us with Christ’s death and resurrection, it is an act of obedience and testimony, not a cultural practice. Yes, water baptism had significance for the Jews, but it has significance for every believer: it publicly declares we now belong to Christ.
It portrays water baptism in a certain context, isn't that important to you?
I've noticed you did not answer my question. I already know you believe water baptism to be an essential act of obedience, while being non-essential to salvation.
How does water baptism show we belong to Christ any more than our saying so? Can an unbeliever be water baptised, making that same declaration, though false? Do you see where I'm going with this?
And again . . . do you understand what the significance of water baptism was to the Jews?
Much love!
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I addressed this already, so rather than re-directing back to this thread and asking the same question, please read what I wrote. Baptism is NOT a Jewish ritual, it is a command of Christ. "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them..." (Matt 28: 19) Gentiles were baptized in Acts 10:47–48 after believing, so this is to be applied to all that believe, not just Jewish converts. Baptism does not save (Eph 2: 8–9) but it is the ordained way of God for us to publicly identify with Christ's death and resurrection (Rom 6:3–4).
You wrote, “I’ve noticed you did not answer my question. I already know you believe water baptism to be an essential act of obedience, while being non-essential to salvation.”
That question was already answered. I stated explicitly that baptism is commanded by Christ and thus essential as an act of obedience (Matthew 28:19, Acts 10:48). But it is not essential for salvation, because salvation is by grace through faith, not of works (Ephesians 2:8–9). You repeatedly come back around as if I have not covered this, but Scripture is clear and the answer has been given.
Yes, an unbeliever can fake baptism, just like they can fake words. That doesn’t make baptism meaningless. Philip told the eunuch, “If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest” (Acts 8:37). The difference is real faith shows itself in obedience, fake faith does not.
And no, baptism wasn’t just Jewish. Paul told Gentiles they were “buried with him in baptism” (Colossians 2:12). That truth is for everyone. Baptism is simply obeying Jesus and showing openly that we now belong to Him.
You side stepped it. No matter. Yes, you affirm the necessity of Baptism. Got that. But you apparently don't want to answer what was the significance of water baptism to the Jews.
I don't mind, I'll give the answer:
To them, it was part of how you would cleanse what was unclean, including people who wanted to convert to Judiasm. This was why the Pharisees were so offended by John when he told them to be baptized. As if they were no better than the Gentile Sinners! How dare he!
And you . . . gaslighting . . . no, you never answered, and I expect you know that.
Much love!
Then why not Baptise in the name of JESUS... and thus prove your point.... !!!!!!! You can't because that is not what your traditions of men believe and teach... . Thank you for making my point!
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The problem with your post is that you are setting Scripture against Scripture, and that is never the way of truth. Jesus Himself said, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (Matthew 28:19). That is not tradition, that is the direct word of Christ Himself. The apostles did not disobey Jesus when they baptized “in the name of Jesus Christ” (Acts 2: 38, Acts 10:48, Acts 19:5) because the word “name” in Scripture also refers to someone’s authority, not a formula of syllables. David came against Goliath “in the name of the LORD of hosts” (1 Samuel 17: 45) which meant in His authority and power, not just a statement of the words. When the apostles baptized in the name of Jesus, they were obeying Matthew 28: 19, because all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Christ (Colossians 2:9) and to invoke His name is to declare the Father, the Son, and the Spirit together in saving authority.
We do baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, precisely as Jesus commanded. That is not “tradition of men,” it is obedience to the very words of the Lord Himself. To pit Acts against Matthew is to take God’s Word and twist it, and create a false contradiction where none exists. Scripture is perfectly consistent, and it always points back to the authority of Christ and the triune God who saves.
It is you whom fails to see the truth.... I'm not the one ignoring what you say is what Jesus commanded.... I have never baptised anyone... Yet the apostles DID!!! Somehow I think they knew more than you.... as they completely go againist what your traditions of men teaches!!!! So try to read my post again....
Act 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 8:16 For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 10:47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.
Act 19:3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." 4 Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Suxs to be you.... when it comes to the truth!
What everyone seems to be missing is,
1. You'll find no examples of any baptizer who said anything prior to the actual immersion of anyone they were baptizing, nor
2. Do you find any scriptursl requirement gir a baptizer to actually say anything at all.
3. The only example we have where an individual was required to say anything prior to a baptism, was that of the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8, where Philip asked him if he believed, and he confessed his belief in Jesus Christ, which is consistent of the requirement found in Romans 10:9-10.
4. And scripture cannot disagree with scripture nor does one scripture supersede or invalidate another. So, Acts 2:38 cannot and does not cancel or supersede Matthew 28:19. So what do these 2 scriptures really mean then and how should they be viewed?
What they both mean is that the baptizer, upon obtaining the confession of belief from the one being baptized, is performing the immersion BY THE AUTHORITY OF either tge God head, or Jesus Christ. So in conclusion, no one has to say anything at all except the one getting baptized, and the one performing the baptism is simply then doing it by authority of God; no words being needed of him/her. And you would have to ask yourself if the baptism would be invalid if the baptizer said the wrong thing? Is it important whstvthe baptizer says, if anything, or rather what the one being baptized says snd believes in his heart??
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
First off I need to correct you on one thing. The scriptures say that the Baptism of John was for the remission of sins. Not symbolic…it was a miracle, just like a Christian Baptism. Yeshua was even questioned on John’s Baptism forgiving sins.
Now does faith in Yeshua save you?
Does repentance save you?
Does Baptism save you?
Does the Bread and Wine Ritual save you?
Some say that we have no part in your own salvation. Which is not correct….You can test this….do nothing and see if you go to Heaven.
The blood and power of Yeshua saves us, but you have to have faith. In the modern world the meaning of the word faith gets lost.
In the Old Testament faith as in God very seldom appears and it is a much larger volume of books then the New Testament. For Christians faith is a conduit of power…..If you had the faith of a mustered seed you could move mountains….
So faith is the foundation of salvation but the process itself is also important. Doing the process is more than obeying Christ, if you do not do the process you maybe in a precarious status of salvation. For example if you do not participate in the Bread and Wine Ritual, Christ said you are not in Him and He is not in you and there is no life in you….dead man walking.
Now as far as Baptism by water and Baptism by the Holy Spirit, this happens at the same time generally but by example in the scriptures you can receive the Holy Spirit without being in water. But by no means should Spirit Baptism replace Water Baptism.
The process of salvation should be completed, as a whole, the process is a miracle. And to be sure the process should change you.
The Christian life…the Christian Way should follow. Moral conduct….love God and one another and go to church and stand with other Christians and worship the Lord in prayers and hymns.
In other words make Christianity a full part of your life….it is not like signing up for a social club. It is not enough to talk the talk, yea got to walk the walk.
Mat 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the
Holy Spirit,
Name - This word of course brings to mind an actual name, such as John Doe. But what does it mean to a Jew.
Name - 1. designates more than the external person; it tends to express his basic character, his personality. We might say it is an emanation of the person himself. 2. authority of, expressing attributes, in acknowledgment or confession of (NABD & VED).
This definition helps us in a verse like John 17:26:
"I (Jesus) made known to them your name and I will make it known."
Jesus obviously did not come to inform the Apostles that God’s name is YHWH. He came to explain God’s character, His attributes, His will, so that we could come to truly know God and follow His ways. This understanding of the word "name" along with the definition of the next word "baptize" will clear up this misunderstood verse.
Baptize - We always think of being baptized in water, either as infants or adults. Yes, this definition is used many times in the New Testament, but there is also another meaning that we must store in the back of our minds.
Baptize - 1. to unite together, to become closely bound to (TGEL & VED).
Now we will put together the definitions of "name" and "baptize" to get the true meaning of Matthew 28:19. Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words has this commentary on this verse:
"The phrase in Matthew 28:19, ‘baptize them in the name’ would indicate that the baptized person was closely bound to, or became property of, the one in whose name he was baptized."
With these definitions we can safely paraphrase this verse as follows:
"Go out into the world and introduce or bring them into the knowledge of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."
Which is exactly what they did. The Apostles had to go into the world and explain to the Gentiles who God is, who the Son (The Messiah) is, and also about the power that they would receive from God’s Spirit. If we take it to mean that we are to water baptize people in the actual name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, then why is it that no one in the Bible ever uses this formula to water baptize believers?
There is a very strong position held by many scholars that this verse was not part of the original text of Matthew’s Gospel, as Eusebius, a third century Christian apologist, quoted the text in a shorter form rather than the form that now appears in the gospel. It reads,
"Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in my name" (which is in agreement with the paraphrase that was just given above).
One commentator writes,
"There is much probability in the conjecture that it is the original text of the gospel, and that in the second century the longer clause supplanted the shorter ‘baptizing them in my name.’ An insertion of this kind, derived from liturgical use, would have rapidly been adopted by copyist and translators" (The International Critical Commentary, by Willoughby C. Allen Volume 26, pp. 307-308).
This position has strong Biblical support by the fact that the Apostles at no recorded instance baptize using the formula of "The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" as Jesus supposedly commanded them to do. They always baptize "In the name of Jesus Christ."
Also the parallel passage in Mark 16:15-18 does not mention in any way this formula, and the Gospel of Mark is believed to be written before Matthew. But these are the results of using definitions that are different than the ones that the writers used…
Act 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 8:16 For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 10:47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.
Act 19:3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." 4 Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5 When they heard this, they were
baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
As we share the gospel and make disciples, we’re not simply telling people to memorize a doctrine or repeat a prayer. We’re inviting them to be bound to the very essence of God’s presence and purpose. And we do this in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—not just as a formula, but as a reflection of God’s ongoing work in the world.
So let us go out and introduce people not just to a title but to a living relationship with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Let’s baptize them into a community of love, grace, and transformation.
So are you In the Father, Son and Holy Spirit or are you IN CHRIST... in His NAME!!!
Rom 6:11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 12:5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
1Co 1:30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
1Co 4:10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but you are prudent in Christ; we are weak, but you are strong; you are distinguished, but we are without honor.
1Co 15:18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
2Co 1:21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,
2Co 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
1Pe 5:10 After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.
1Pe 5:14 Greet one another with a kiss of love. Peace be to you all who are in Christ.
So are you according to scripture in Christ or in... some form of the Traditions of men?
"In Christ": What does it really mean?
The words “in Christ” and similar, i.e.; “in Jesus Christ”, “in Christ Jesus”, “in him’, are used ad nauseam within the Christian world with hardly anyone ever giving any thought whatsoever as to what the words really mean or entail, thus relegating them to nothing more than Christian “buzz words” that sound good and Christian-like.
So what do these words really mean? What does it mean to be “in Christ” and how does one get “in Christ” or into Christ? Is there a specific way stated in the bible? Are there unique benefits for being “in Christ” once one has achieved that state of being “in him”? Are there benefits available to those not being “in Christ”? Can you receive spiritual blessings without being “in Christ”?
These are logical questions that should be asked or considered when one sees or uses these or similar words inferring the same.
There are 146 references in the New Testament (may not be all inclusive, but close if not) using these exact or similar words as those mentioned above. If mentioned that frequently and to that extent, it must be of great importance, so likewise, all should render like importance to these words when using them, clearly understanding what they truly mean and entail.
Consider the suffix “ian” attached to the word “Christ” to become the word Christian; what does "ian" attached to the end a word mean or indicate? One of its meanings is 'from or belonging to'. As it pertains to Christ, it indicates that a Christian is from or belonging to, or in other words, owned by Christ! It should be noted too that the word “Christian” doesn’t mean a believer in or follower of Christ, but rather really means owned by Christ. So, you could be a believer in and follower of Jesus, practice some form of “Christian” religious worship, be devout, moral, etc. etc, but not be owned by Him, not “in him”.
Note that the bible says the following:
1 Cor 6:20 "For ye are bought with a price:"
Acts 20:28 “Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."
The above clearly states that Christ purchased or bought the church with His own blood, so it's clear that Christians, those owned by Christ, those that are part of his body (the church), have been bought and paid for by his blood which was the price he paid for them who are now “in him”. Therefore, those that are “in” the church are His, and are “in him”.
What are some of the benefits that being owned by or “in Christ” bestowed upon you that are unable to be conferred in any other way according to scripture?
•Be saved, receive redemption, have your sins remitted and added to the Lord’s body which is the church
•Be buried/planted with Him in the likeness of his death thus enabling like resurrection
•Put on Christ and become a Christian and child of God
•Receive the Holy Spirit, spiritual gifts, blessings, have hope, and be made alive in Him
So, how do you become owned by, “in Christ”, and part of the church? The fact of the matter is, there is one specific way mentioned in the bible as to what one must do to be “in Christ” as well as benefits for being “in him” that can only be realized thereby: by baptism.
Rom 6:3 “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death”?
Gal 3:26/27 “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ”.
1st Cor 12:13 “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Rom 6:4 “Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life”.
Col 2:12 “Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead”.
Rom 6:5 “For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection”:
Acts 2:38 “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost”. 41 “Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls”. 47 “Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”
•Christ’s body is the church of which He is the head (Col 1:18, Eph 5:23);
•You become part of the church by becoming a part of His body. You become part of His body by being baptized into it.
•In it (His body, the church), you obtain spiritual blessings (Eph 1:3).
•Are you really a Christian without being part of His body, the church, which you are added to upon being baptized (Acts 2:41, 47)?
•If you’re not buried with Him through baptism, can you then still be raised with Him?
The words “in Christ” and similar, i.e.; “in Jesus Christ”, “in Christ Jesus”, “in him’, are used ad nauseam within the Christian world with hardly anyone ever giving any thought whatsoever as to what the words really mean or entail, thus relegating them to nothing more than Christian “buzz words” that sound good and Christian-like.
So what do these words really mean? What does it mean to be “in Christ” and how does one get “in Christ” or into Christ? Is there a specific way stated in the bible? Are there unique benefits for being “in Christ” once one has achieved that state of being “in him”? Are there benefits available to those not being “in Christ”? Can you receive spiritual blessings without being “in Christ”?
These are logical questions that should be asked or considered when one sees or uses these or similar words inferring the same.
There are 146 references in the New Testament (may not be all inclusive, but close if not) using these exact or similar words as those mentioned above. If mentioned that frequently and to that extent, it must be of great importance, so likewise, all should render like importance to these words when using them, clearly understanding what they truly mean and entail.
Consider the suffix “ian” attached to the word “Christ” to become the word Christian; what does "ian" attached to the end a word mean or indicate? One of its meanings is 'from or belonging to'. As it pertains to Christ, it indicates that a Christian is from or belonging to, or in other words, owned by Christ! It should be noted too that the word “Christian” doesn’t mean a believer in or follower of Christ, but rather really means owned by Christ. So, you could be a believer in and follower of Jesus, practice some form of “Christian” religious worship, be devout, moral, etc. etc, but not be owned by Him, not “in him”.
Note that the bible says the following:
1 Cor 6:20 "For ye are bought with a price:"
Acts 20:28 “Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."
The above clearly states that Christ purchased or bought the church with His own blood, so it's clear that Christians, those owned by Christ, those that are part of his body (the church), have been bought and paid for by his blood which was the price he paid for them who are now “in him”. Therefore, those that are “in” the church are His, and are “in him”.
What are some of the benefits that being owned by or “in Christ” bestowed upon you that are unable to be conferred in any other way according to scripture?
•Be saved, receive redemption, have your sins remitted and added to the Lord’s body which is the church
•Be buried/planted with Him in the likeness of his death thus enabling like resurrection
•Put on Christ and become a Christian and child of God
•Receive the Holy Spirit, spiritual gifts, blessings, have hope, and be made alive in Him
So, how do you become owned by, “in Christ”, and part of the church? The fact of the matter is, there is one specific way mentioned in the bible as to what one must do to be “in Christ” as well as benefits for being “in him” that can only be realized thereby: by baptism.
Rom 6:3 “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death”?
Gal 3:26/27 “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ”.
1st Cor 12:13 “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Rom 6:4 “Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life”.
Col 2:12 “Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead”.
Rom 6:5 “For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection”:
Acts 2:38 “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost”. 41 “Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls”. 47 “Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”
•Christ’s body is the church of which He is the head (Col 1:18, Eph 5:23);
•You become part of the church by becoming a part of His body. You become part of His body by being baptized into it.
•In it (His body, the church), you obtain spiritual blessings (Eph 1:3).
•Are you really a Christian without being part of His body, the church, which you are added to upon being baptized (Acts 2:41, 47)?
•If you’re not buried with Him through baptism, can you then still be raised with Him?
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