if i wanted to become a catholic

[bdavidc]

Here is the disagreement.
We are saved for good works.
Jesus commanded us to do good works.
So if we don't do them...are we till saved?

Salvation is a gift, not a result of works, but genuine salvation will be evidenced by good works. “For by grace are ye saved through faith … not of works” (Ephesians 2:8–9). However, “faith without works is dead” (James 2:17). If a person claims to be saved but has no fruit, their faith no real and they are a false convert. Jesus said, “Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire” (Matthew 7:19). This is something that would make a good thread.

 

[bdavidc]

This reasoning that we do them BECAUSE we are saved and because we WANT to is becoming very tiring.

You say it’s tiring to hear that we do good works because we are saved and because we want to. But that is the teaching of the Bible. Jesus said, “If you love me, keep my commandments” (John 14:15). Obedience is the result of loving Him, not the attempt to earn salvation.

When a person is truly saved God grants them a new heart and His Spirit so they will want to obey (Ezekiel 36:26–27, Philippians 2:13). If a person is really saved they will want to do good works. If you do not want to, then you are not saved (yes that matters). That is just the way it is. It is evidence that you only know about Jesus, but you do not know Him.

The obedience of a believer is evidenced by the transformed life in Christ. If there is no desire to obey, there is no salvation.

 

[bdavidc]

I don't really care if we WANT to obey God or not.
Maybe we do.
Maybe we don't.
The POINT is that God demands obedience...in the OT and in the NT.
God said He prefers obedience to sacrifice....
1 Samuel 15:22

John 3:36 states that we must believe to be saved and obey to forego the wrath of God.

Yes, God requires obedience. That’s never changed. But the point is, if someone isn’t saved, they can’t obey God in a way that pleases Him. Romans 8: 7: “The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” That’s why the Bible makes it abundantly clear we are saved by faith, apart from works (Ephesians 2:8–9), and it is only after we are saved that the Spirit gives us both the desire and the power to obey. Philippians 2: 13: “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”

I agree with you that John 3:36 also connects belief to obedience: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not [literally ‘does not obey’ in the Greek] the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” Saving faith is never mere lip service, it is trust that submits to Christ. Obedience is evidence of true faith, and disobedience shows unbelief.

So the point is this: obedience is not optional, but it is the natural result of salvation. If someone professes faith in Christ and then resists obeying, their faith is a sham. If they are truly saved, they will obey, not because they “feel like it,” but because God has changed their heart.

 

[bdavidc]

I've heard some on these Forums state that we could return to sinning and still be saved.
I'd like to never have to hear this coming from someone that calls themselves a Christian,,,,

I totally agree and that would also make a good thread. I think I will write a blog post on that.

 

[bdavidc]

YOU have just stated that our good works do not KEEP US SAVED....
but Jesus said they do.
Matthew 7:26 The foolish man does NOT ACT on the words of Jesus and his house fell.

Jesus never said that good works keep us saved. He said that the only proof to show if our foundation is real is by our obedience (Matthew 7:24–27). The wise man hears and does the Word of Christ. He builds on the rock and his house does not fall (Matthew 7:24–25). The foolish man only hears but does not do. He builds on the sand and his house falls (Matthew 7:26–27). That passage is not about salvation. It is about the difference between true faith and false faith.

The Bible is very clear: we are saved by grace through faith, and not by works (Ephesians 2:8–9). However, if your faith is real, it will produce obedience to the Word of God. That is why James 1:22 says, “Be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.”

Matthew 7: 26 is not teaching that we are kept saved by good works. It is teaching that if you have no works, you were never saved to begin with. Works are the proof of the foundation. If there is no obedience, there is no real salvation not because you have to but because with you new life in Christ you natural just do good works because the Holy Spirit lives in you. No good works in you, then no Holy Spirit in you.

 

[bdavidc]

WHERE in the NT does it state that our works are of no value?

Nowhere does the NT say that our works are worthless. It only says that our works cannot save us or keep us saved. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ alone (Ephesians 2:8–9). However, in the very next verse it says, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works” (Ephesians 2:10). That means that works are very valuable, as the fruit and evidence of salvation.

James 2: 18 says, “I will shew thee my faith by my works.” Our works are important, but they are the evidence of our faith, not the cause of our salvation. Titus 3: 8 even says we should “be careful to maintain good works.”

So the NT doesn’t teach that our works are worthless, it only teaches that they cannot earn salvation. The value of works is that they demonstrate faith.

The NT also says God will reward us for them. Salvation is by a free gift of grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8–9). However, Jesus said, “The Son of man shall come… and then he shall reward every man according to his works” (Matthew 16:27). Paul also said that we will all stand before Christ and receive rewards for what we have done (2 Corinthians 5:10). Works cannot earn us heaven, but they are evidence of faith and will be rewarded in heaven.

 

[bdavidc]

What did Jesus come here to do anyway?
Was it for the atonement or was there also another reason?

Jesus came first to save sinners by His atonement. “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners” (1 Timothy 1:15). He gave His life as a ransom for many (Mark 10:45). His blood was shed for the forgiveness of sins (Matthew 26:28). That’s the heart of the gospel.

But that’s not the only reason. He also came to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3: 8), to call sinners to repentance (Luke 5:32), and to make His people holy. Titus 2: 14 says He gave Himself, “that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”

So the answer is both: yes, atonement is the foundation, but the result is transformation. Jesus saves us not just from the penalty of sin, but also from its power, so that we would live in obedience to Him.

 

[bdavidc]

What did Jesus come here to do anyway?
Was it for the atonement or was there also another reason?

Jesus came first to save sinners by His atonement. “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners” (1 Timothy 1:15). He gave His life as a ransom for many (Mark 10:45). His blood was shed for the forgiveness of sins (Matthew 26:28). That’s the heart of the gospel.

But that’s not the only reason. He also came to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3: 8), to call sinners to repentance (Luke 5:32), and to make His people holy. Titus 2: 14 says He gave Himself, “that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”

So the answer is both: yes, atonement is the foundation, but the result is transformation. Jesus saves us not just from the penalty of sin, but also from its power, so that we would live in obedience to Him.

But we like to forget
Matthew 7:21
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

What do you think the will of the Father is?
Jesus states it in verse 23...lawlessness....not following the law....
the law of Christ
NOT The Law.

But in Matthew 7: 21, Jesus says that the one who enters the kingdom is the one who does the will of the Father. If you keep reading, He defines it. Verse 23 says, “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” The word translated “iniquity” is the Greek word anomia, which means “lawlessness” or “without law.” That is the opposite of submitting to Christ as Lord.

So the will of the Father is not people merely saying “Lord, Lord” with their lips, but truly knowing Christ and obeying Him. John 6:40 makes it very clear: “And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life.” The will of the Father begins with believing in Jesus Christ for salvation. That faith produces obedience, not lawlessness.

The law we are under is not the old covenant law of Moses, but the law of Christ. Galatians 6:2 says, “Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.” Jesus summed it up in Matthew 22:37–40, love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. Romans 8:2 calls it “the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.”

So Matthew 7 is not telling us to go back under the old covenant law. It’s telling us that the true children of God are those who believe on Christ, walk in His Spirit, and live in obedience to Him. Anything less is lawlessness, and Jesus will reject it.

Yes.
We seem to be depending totally on God....
the early church did not teach this.
The change has come about since Calvinism...
it seems to have affected every denomination.

I hear you. But let’s look at it biblically rather than pinning this on Calvin or any denomination. The Bible says that we are completely dependent on God. Jesus said, “Without me ye can do nothing” (John 15:5). Paul said, “It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure” (Philippians 2:13). That is not Calvin, that is straight Scripture. From cover to cover the Word of God portrays man as utterly helpless apart from God’s grace.

At the same time, the Bible never equates this utter dependence with some license to be passive. The same Paul who said it is God who works in us also said, “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12). We are fully dependent on God, but we are also commanded to obey, to walk, to strive in holiness.

The early church you refer to in the Bible itself taught the same. Peter said, “As his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness… giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge…” (2 Peter 1:3–5). God gives us everything, yet we must walk in it diligently.

So the real issue is not Calvinism or denominations or historical shifts. The issue is whether we are letting Scripture define the balance: complete dependence on God’s Spirit, yet complete responsibility to obey His Word. Both are true and both are needed.

The Bible exhorts us to dependence on God, but it also calls us to responsibility to obey. Jesus declared, “Without me ye can do nothing” (John 15: 5), but Paul wrote, “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12). God will supply the power—“It is God which worketh in you” (Philippians 2:13)—but we must walk in it. The Apostle Paul expressed it best: “I laboured… yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me” (1 Corinthians 15:10). That is the balance: total dependence on God, with total responsibility to obey Him.

Agreed.
But Jesus taught that it's possible to forfeit/lose our salvation...
and it seems some believe in OSAS and not only that...l
but NO MATTER HOW THEY LIVE.

I don't believe in OSAS the way some preach it. I could write a page on that.

 

[GodsGrace]

You say it’s tiring to hear that we do good works because we are saved and because we want to. But that is the teaching of the Bible. Jesus said, “If you love me, keep my commandments” (John 14:15). Obedience is the result of loving Him, not the attempt to earn salvation.

When a person is truly saved God grants them a new heart and His Spirit so they will want to obey (Ezekiel 36:26–27, Philippians 2:13). If a person is really saved they will want to do good works. If you do not want to, then you are not saved (yes that matters). That is just the way it is. It is evidence that you only know about Jesus, but you do not know Him.

The obedience of a believer is evidenced by the transformed life in Christ. If there is no desire to obey, there is no salvation.

I'm not going to be debating this...
I REALLY mean I'm tired of debating with Christians as to whether or not we're required to obey God.

The NT teaches that our lives are to change....
This requires doing good works.

Jesus set up His Kingdom on earth...an unseen Kingdom of the spirit.
IF we want to belong to that Kingdom..
we must do what is necessary to stay in it.

Actually, Jesus never spoke about being born again except for John 3....
What did He speak about throughout the gospels?
HOW we can make it to be a member of His Kingdom.

Paul taught about this too...of course.
The obedience of faith that will also be taught to the gentiles.
Romans 1:5
5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,

We are REQUIRED to do good works.
Matthew 25:41-46
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
45 "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent * that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


Jesus will say DEPART FROM ME to those that did NOT ACT on His words/teachings.

Please show where, in the above verses, Jesus speaks about not being saved...
nowhere....He is stating what we must do to do the Father's will.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus came first to save sinners by His atonement. “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners” (1 Timothy 1:15). He gave His life as a ransom for many (Mark 10:45). His blood was shed for the forgiveness of sins (Matthew 26:28). That’s the heart of the gospel.

But that’s not the only reason. He also came to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3: 8), to call sinners to repentance (Luke 5:32), and to make His people holy. Titus 2: 14 says He gave Himself, “that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”

Study some more.
It would behoove you.

So the answer is both: yes, atonement is the foundation, but the result is transformation. Jesus saves us not just from the penalty of sin, but also from its power, so that we would live in obedience to Him.

But in Matthew 7: 21, Jesus says that the one who enters the kingdom is the one who does the will of the Father. If you keep reading, He defines it. Verse 23 says, “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” The word translated “iniquity” is the Greek word anomia, which means “lawlessness” or “without law.” That is the opposite of submitting to Christ as Lord.

Thanks for the §Greek lesson.
§We want to know Greek...apparently we can't trust the NT translators....

Do you believe LAWLESS means NOT OBEYING CHRIST'S LAW?

So the will of the Father is not people merely saying “Lord, Lord” with their lips, but truly knowing Christ and obeying Him. John 6:40 makes it very clear: “And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life.” The will of the Father begins with believing in Jesus Christ for salvation. That faith produces obedience, not lawlessness.

You're adding words.
Above you stated precisely what Matthew 7.21 means...
why are you changing it?

The law we are under is not the old covenant law of Moses, but the law of Christ. Galatians 6:2 says,

Wow.
Thanks again.
This conversation will soon end.

“Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.” Jesus summed it up in Matthew 22:37–40, love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. Romans 8:2 calls it “the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.”

HOW do we bear one another's burdens?
Is it by doing good works??

So Matthew 7 is not telling us to go back under the old covenant law. It’s telling us that the true children of God are those who believe on Christ, walk in His Spirit, and live in obedience to Him. Anything less is lawlessness, and Jesus will reject it.

Ummm.
You're adding to scripture again.

We bring our preconcieved notions to the bible and then make it say what we WANT it to say.

I hear you. But let’s look at it biblically rather than pinning this on Calvin or any denomination. The Bible says that we are completely dependent on God. Jesus said, “Without me ye can do nothing” (John 15:5). Paul said, “It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure” (Philippians 2:13). That is not Calvin, that is straight Scripture. From cover to cover the Word of God portrays man as utterly helpless apart from God’s grace.

Where does it state we are completely dependent on God?
This means, of course, that when we sin it's God's fault.
He was just not able to keep us from sinning.

Not posting any scripture.

At the same time, the Bible never equates this utter dependence with some license to be passive. The same Paul who said it is God who works in us also said, “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12). We are fully dependent on God, but we are also commanded to obey, to walk, to strive in holiness.

Maybe we agree on this.

The early church you refer to in the Bible itself taught the same. Peter said, “As his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness… giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge…” (2 Peter 1:3–5). God gives us everything, yet we must walk in it diligently.

The early church I refer to is the early church.
The early church is not in the bible...it comes after.
You know,,,the Apostles taught persons what they were taught...
and so on.
But better to heed YouTube preachers than those that learned from John, Peter or Paul.

So the real issue is not Calvinism or denominations or historical shifts. The issue is whether we are letting Scripture define the balance: complete dependence on God’s Spirit, yet complete responsibility to obey His Word. Both are true and both are needed.

Can we start speaking in those terms?
Could we say that God requires obedience instead of softening it up with BECAUSE WE WANT TO.

The Bible exhorts us to dependence on God, but it also calls us to responsibility to obey. Jesus declared, “Without me ye can do nothing” (John 15: 5), but Paul wrote, “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12). God will supply the power—“It is God which worketh in you” (Philippians 2:13)—but we must walk in it. The Apostle Paul expressed it best: “I laboured… yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me” (1 Corinthians 15:10). That is the balance: total dependence on God, with total responsibility to obey Him.


I don't believe in OSAS the way some preach it. I could write a page on that.

OSAS came about in the 1800's as an outgrowth of Perseverance of the Saints.
The concept of OSAS was NEVER known in the early church.
NEVER.

 

[GodsGrace]

Salvation is a gift, not a result of works, but genuine salvation will be evidenced by good works. “For by grace are ye saved through faith … not of works” (Ephesians 2:8–9). However, “faith without works is dead” (James 2:17). If a person claims to be saved but has no fruit, their faith no real and they are a false convert. Jesus said, “Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire” (Matthew 7:19). This is something that would make a good thread.

Did I post John 15:2 ?
I think I did.

What you wrote above is NOT what Jesus is teaching in John 15.2

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, God requires obedience. That’s never changed. But the point is, if someone isn’t saved, they can’t obey God in a way that pleases Him. Romans 8: 7: “The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” That’s why the Bible makes it abundantly clear we are saved by faith, apart from works (Ephesians 2:8–9), and it is only after we are saved that the Spirit gives us both the desire and the power to obey. Philippians 2: 13: “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”

I agree with you that John 3:36 also connects belief to obedience: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not [literally ‘does not obey’ in the Greek] the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” Saving faith is never mere lip service, it is trust that submits to Christ. Obedience is evidence of true faith, and disobedience shows unbelief.

So the point is this: obedience is not optional, but it is the natural result of salvation. If someone professes faith in Christ and then resists obeying, their faith is a sham. If they are truly saved, they will obey, not because they “feel like it,” but because God has changed their heart.

I'm talking about saved people bdavidc.

Unsaved people are LOST.

Has God totally changed YOUR heart?
Hate to get personal, but you NEVER sin?

I think you get the point.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, God requires obedience. That’s never changed. But the point is, if someone isn’t saved, they can’t obey God in a way that pleases Him. Romans 8: 7: “The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” That’s why the Bible makes it abundantly clear we are saved by faith, apart from works (Ephesians 2:8–9), and it is only after we are saved that the Spirit gives us both the desire and the power to obey. Philippians 2: 13: “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”

I agree with you that John 3:36 also connects belief to obedience: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not [literally ‘does not obey’ in the Greek]

You really do seem to know Greek.
I respect you for that.
I usually have to explain John 3.36 by those that do NOT WANT TO OBEY....
and state that it was incorrectly translated and should be DO NOT BELIEVE (instead of do not obey).
Yes sir.
In Greek disbelieving and disobeying are synonymous.

the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” Saving faith is never mere lip service, it is trust that submits to Christ. Obedience is evidence of true faith, and disobedience shows unbelief.

OK
I just would like to stop stating that good works are EVIDENCE of our faith...
and just cut it down to GOOD WORKS ARE REQUIRED.

You see I teach our faith to kids.
I have to tell them we should obey God.
I can't tell them
BELIEVE AND THEN YOU'LL OBEY.

It doesn't work like that.
This is also what Jesus taught.

Here's salavtion in a nutshell.
1. Believe in God.
2. Obey God.

So the point is this: obedience is not optional, but it is the natural result of salvation. If someone professes faith in Christ and then resists obeying, their faith is a sham. If they are truly saved, they will obey, not because they “feel like it,” but because God has changed their heart.

Replied to above.
So I NEVER have to sin in order for me to THINK that I'm saved?
See 1 John.

 

[GodsGrace]

@bdavidc

I can't seem to find that thread of yours.
It's from July and it was about denominations....
sorry I can't remember more.
If you could find it,,,tag me in.

 

[bdavidc]

Do you beleive that we should be in agreement or in support of such a movement or any who does lead in it .
OF course not .
So then why do so many support men of both sides WHO DO SO .
IN other words WHY WOULD I POINT ANYONE to any man who actually DOES the work OF this interfaith .
I Would not .
Now i invite you to see who is leading in it . It probably would not suprise you if i told you
this has been at work huge in the RCC who brought it big time into the prostesetant realm .
It probably would not suprise you that this is the most progressive liberal led idea to come upon this entire world .
But what is gonna shock you to the core
is that we have men and women at work RIGHT NOW
amongst the conservative , even evangelical realm that HAVE been LEADING US ALL RIGHT INTO IT BIG TIME .
Now they do speak and say they are against the ONE WORLD GOVT , ONE WORLD RELIGOIN
and YET THEY DO THE VERY WORK OF THE ONE WORLD GOVT ONE WORLD RELGION .
And our president is one of its very key leaders along with his mr all inclusive interaith vance .
WE BEEN DUPED BIG TIME . they do nothing now but lead this people right into the LIE of anti christ .
ANY DAY NOW and soon i expect to see
EVEN trump come lipping everyone is serving the same GOD differently
AND WHEN HE DO , HIS PEOPLE WILL JUST KEEP CHEERING HIM ON . we got problems . WE GOT MAJOR PROBLEMS .

You are right, we should not and should never support the interfaith movement or those who promote it. Jesus was clear: “No man cometh unto the Father, but by me” (John 14:6). It is a direct lie, and to stand with it in any way is to turn our backs on the truth. You are also right that the RCC has pushed it long and hard and that it has crept into protestant and even evangelical churches. Should not surprise us, Paul said: “Of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them” (Acts 20:30).

You also asked me why so many still support the men that do this. I answered with what Scripture already said: “They will not endure sound doctrine… and they shall turn away their ears from the truth” (2 Timothy 4:3–4). Many will run after a smooth word rather than an unpalatable truth, so when their pastors lead the charge they will follow no matter how far they compromise.

One last thing you said that I must address: the suggestion that I am being one who points to any men who support the interfaith movement. I agree with you, I will not. Paul told us to “mark them… and avoid them” (Romans 16:17). It does not matter if they are liberal, conservative, protestant, catholic or even popular evangelicals. If they are speaking against the gospel by promoting unity with false religion, then they are not speaking for Christ.

So also on the matter of political leaders who talk God but promote the interfaith compromise. They are doing the very work of the spirit of antichrist. Whether it’s this president, his advisors or even Trump one day talking about “we all serve the same God differently”, the truth remains the same. We follow Christ, not men. But here is the other side of that coin: we also cannot sit idly by when it comes to political leadership and elections. The scriptures show that when the wicked rule, the people suffer (Proverbs 29:2). God holds us accountable for the stewardship and influence He has given us, and one of those places we can use it in our nation is through voting. James 4: 17 says, “To him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” To choose to sit back and do nothing when evil leaders are being advanced is not an option for the Christian who desires to honor God. That means we must vote for that which is most in line with His word. The left openly promotes abortion, sexual immorality, lawlessness, rebellion against God and His truth. Those are all things that God hates and that no believer can support without sharing in their sin. Does not mean we put our hope in politicians, our hope is in Christ alone, but we do have to stand for what is right.

So yes, you are right to warn against the interfaith deception. But we must also be faithful stewards in the world God has put us in. That means rejecting false unity, speaking against the lies, but at the same time we must use every lawful means to resist and promote biblical truth, including our vote.

To vote in an election for the one closest to what the Bible teaches doesn't mean that we condone everything they may do. However, to knowingly cast a vote for a party that brazenly stands in opposition to God's Word is far more egregious, and each one of us will be held accountable to God for how we use the influence that we have to either push what is right or to embolden the most evil.

 

[PS95]

I read a thread of yours last night to which I plan to respond because I think we'll agree on a lot.
But I read all of the below and I DO think we Protestants are changing the rules of Christianity.
It's really being watered down and I find it rather distressing.
Here is the disagreement.
We are saved for good works.
Jesus commanded us to do good works.
So if we don't do them...are we till saved?
This reasoning that we do them BECAUSE we are saved and because we WANT to is becoming very tiring.
I don't really care if we WANT to obey God or not.
Maybe we do.
Maybe we don't.
The POINT is that God demands obedience...in the OT and in the NT.
God said He prefers obedience to sacrifice....
1 Samuel 15:22

John 3:36 states that we must believe to be saved and obey to forego the wrath of God.

I've heard some on these Forums state that we could return to sinning and still be saved.
I'd like to never have to hear this coming from someone that calls themselves a Christian,,,,

YOU have just stated that our good works do not KEEP US SAVED....
but Jesus said they do.

Hi Grace,
There are people on here who either don't understand the scriptures in full, or purposefully misrepresent the truth. Idk which. You have seen me argue with people like Behold, before who says things that sound as if an affirmation of faith and then nothing you do afterwards regarding behavior matters= salvation.
That is not what I believe- and it isn't what Dave believes. 'Don't let those people confuse you! That is my beef with them. - it is utterly irresponsible of them.
The understanding from the scriptures that I have is simple. It did not come by any man. I studied the bible alone and in prayer. I trusted no man after the way I was brought up. I just looked up Martin Luther to see what he taught- I honestly wasn't sure! The quote in that pic is exactly what the bible teaches.
Half of that sentence leaves it incomplete when discussing with those who profess faith + works saves like Catholics and Jws. WHY? because they are convinced of works- therefore, we sound to them like we are saying just "think it" and then do as you please the rest of your life-- It sends a wrong message to that person. It's downright irresponsible not to speak truth.

James and Paul agree- it is two ways of saying the same thing- they are coming from 2 different angles-
Paul is countering those who think their works can save them- and reassuring believers of truth.
James is countering people who think it's a quick fix with no change of heart- continue in sins. ( Behold "sounds" this way) That's why James says- I will show you my faith BY my works.
Faith is seen in what we do and how we act due to that changed heart that God gives us.
The works are a RESULT of a saving faith. The works can't save you. A true saving faith always has works due to the changed heart.
A faith that doesn't is a DEAD FAITH. That person has no real faith and is not saved. There is no evidence of any change in the heart.

Of course a person whose life never changes is not saved and a person who says they are and goes to church and seems to try for a bit and then goes back to their old ways and continues to live sinfully until they die- is not saved..

I know that I am saved- I am being saved- and I will be saved. How do I know? Is that arrrogant? No. John said we may know. God has made me know- my spirit does cry out ABBA - for me, that is very real and and the Holy Spirit guides me- prunes me- plucks me- teaches me- comforts me and convicts me. That is all very real for me.

Before I came to know Christ I I lived how I pleased- I didn't care when I sinned- I was having fun..
When I started to have an interest in God - I cleaned up parts of my life on the outside- but I had no changed heart inside toward God or others- I had no idea that He loved me or that truly Jesus paid my debt. I was operating out of fear. But it was a beginning.. Many people stay here.. due to the "works" mentality.

Then, later when I learned what Jesus' death meant and how my sins were forgiven because of His selfless act of love-- when I really sat at His foot and believed His love and his grace-- and knew there was not a thing I could do ever to earn this incredible gift-- that is when I fell in love with Him- no one could compare to Him. I was free- free of fear, free of sin, free of guilt- that's when I cried, and called out to Him to thank Him and that is when I WANTED to OBEY HIM with ALL OF MY HEART!- I wanted to do whatever made Him smile! I wanted to spend time with HIM! I wanted so badly to SEE HIM and Be WITH HIM.
I saw sin is a different way-- stupidity not fun- but stupid and worthless and twisted. I saw everything as worthless except for HIM. I had no desire to sin, or do anything that would make Him unhappy. I was filled with love for Him and other people-- I wanted them to know about Him! I didn't care what anyone thought- I told them- I was called crazy and wrong and even evil by religious people.
So, I think sure it does matter if we WANT to do good works, we are to be eager for them, and I was not until He made me want to be.

So when a person who believes faith + works = salvation-- how do you know if you ever did enough? How can you ever rest in Him? How can you "rejoice in Him always"? How can you possibly think you can earn a gift? So, when you do good deeds you feel as if you deserve something back?- salvation?
As opposed to - trusting in Him and what He did and His power to save us, and keep us saved-- and due to the joy of that truth and due to the inward changes-- we can rest in His love and joyfully serve Him and others.

The "religious" people who say grace plus works saves-- the problem with that is ALWAYS that then they proceed to tell you what those works that they require are-- (always manmade rules) and no real salvation. You are earning it by obeying THEM.
Jws-
1) no birthday cakes
2) no Christmas
3) no cross
4) no being a police officer
5) no partaking of communion
6) you cant be born again
7) Be baptized as Jw
8) do ALL that we say... (it's endless.............)
Catholics-
someone else can list those-- Idk

Compare those man made rules with the works James mentioned- James was speaking to a changed heart - a loving heart that would help his neighbor in need. "faith working through love"-
and James brings up Abraham- that story was many years after Abraham was declared righteous by God- because He truly believed God's promise- He obeyed Him- and his faith was perfected. James absolutely agrees with Paul.- they just begin with different perspectives..

God puts His Spirit in us and we are guided by God- He changes us inside. This is a new person- born of God.
Until we believe God's truth- and are not born again from above we are in the flesh- and we can not ever please God. We can dress up, and we can act religious, but if we have not been BOUGHT and now OWNED and CHANGED by God then we are not In Christ- we are not His.
The change is internal- where is matters!!! we can't do that ourselves no matter how hard we might try.

The first thing we need to do is believe what He said. That's where we fail. He said we may know we have eternal life. I believe that we must abide in Him and we will IF we belong to Him= because we LOVE HIM.
Why do we love him?
Because He loved us first... It will always go back to HIM- the Savior.
He does it all- all we do is cooperate with the Spirit He has given to us.

My point is- people like Behold and others who proclaim half a message and insist that behavior means nothing in regard to the saved is just not true. Don't confuse the truth with false teachers who sound like us.
Do you agree with what is in that quote? Is that what the bible says or not?

 

[amigo de christo]

Yes, God requires obedience. That’s never changed. But the point is, if someone isn’t saved, they can’t obey God in a way that pleases Him. Romans 8: 7: “The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” That’s why the Bible makes it abundantly clear we are saved by faith, apart from works (Ephesians 2:8–9), and it is only after we are saved that the Spirit gives us both the desire and the power to obey. Philippians 2: 13: “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”

I agree with you that John 3:36 also connects belief to obedience: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not [literally ‘does not obey’ in the Greek] the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” Saving faith is never mere lip service, it is trust that submits to Christ. Obedience is evidence of true faith, and disobedience shows unbelief.

So the point is this: obedience is not optional, but it is the natural result of salvation. If someone professes faith in Christ and then resists obeying, their faith is a sham. If they are truly saved, they will obey, not because they “feel like it,” but because God has changed their heart.

It is clearly seen my friend .
So the question that needs to be asked , stated and answered is
The JESUS or jesus one loveth MATTERS .
Example .
If a man cometh to a jesus that supports his rainbow , his love of money , whatever sinful lustful desire he has
and promises him salvation , WELL that JESUS CANNOT DELIVER or GIVE that man salvation
CAUSE IT AINT JESUS . HE aint the minstir of sin . What many may not realize is
satan and his co workers can preach what is known as another jesus . one that can promise salvation
BUT CANNOT GIVE IT . as it giveth them the delusion that their jesus accepts their sin .
THERE has been NO TRUE CONVERSION . CHRIST changes the heart
HE dont support the sin . but many follow a jesus that does support the sin
and they the same old man with the same lustful desire , Only they wrapped it all up in another image of god and jesus .
ANY GUESSES why i did not captlize that god that jesus . cause satan can wear wool as do many of his minstirs .
Marvel not . many have lip service but hearts are far from him . i should know , i was once king of the worst of them .
JESUS dont kiss korans , budda statues and make the path to GOD real broad and DENIES HIS OWN SELF .
but satan sure will . OH yes you are correct WE ARE IN A MASSIVE TIME OF MASSIVE DELUSION .
The time HAS COME , notice i didnt say WILL COME
but HAS COME WHEN THEY NO LONGER ENDURE SOUND DOCTRINE at all .

 

[Marvelloustime]

It is clearly seen my friend .
So the question that needs to be asked , stated and answered is
The JESUS or jesus one loveth MATTERS .
Example .
If a man cometh to a jesus that supports his rainbow , his love of money , whatever sinful lustful desire he has
and promises him salvation , WELL that JESUS CANNOT DELIVER or GIVE that man salvation
CAUSE IT AINT JESUS . HE aint the minstir of sin . What many may not realize is
satan and his co workers can preach what is known as another jesus . one that can promise salvation
BUT CANNOT GIVE IT . as it giveth them the delusion that their jesus accepts their sin .
THERE has been NO TRUE CONVERSION . CHRIST changes the heart
HE dont support the sin . but many follow a jesus that does support the sin
and they the same old man with the same lustful desire , Only they wrapped it all up in another image of god and jesus .
ANY GUESSES why i did not captlize that god that jesus . cause satan can wear wool as do many of his minstirs .
Marvel not . many have lip service but hearts are far from him . i should know , i was once king of the worst of them .
JESUS dont kiss korans , budda statues and make the path to GOD real broad and DENIES HIS OWN SELF .
but satan sure will . OH yes you are correct WE ARE IN A MASSIVE TIME OF MASSIVE DELUSION .
The time HAS COME , notice i didnt say WILL COME
but HAS COME WHEN THEY NO LONGER ENDURE SOUND DOCTRINE at all .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

Whatever you do my friend do not buy into OSAS . they have messed things up .
The often twist and omit warnings that were for good of the church in order to teach OSAS instead .
That has led to the most insincere of people i have ever seen . ALL warnings , all reminders
EVEN THE REMINDERS about WE MUST COTINUE IN HIM TO THE END , are dire NECESSARY For us to BELEIVE .
But OSAS acts like IF ONE reminds the church YE MUST continue in HIM TO THE END
that somehow YOU AINT TRUSTING IN JESUS . WHO ACTUALLY EVEN TOLD HIS OWN YE MUST CONTINUE IN ME .
ITS they who dont trust JESUS but rather an acroynm . ME , I TRUST JESUS
i trust the words of JESUS of paul , peter , jude and them all .
FOR WE ARE MADE PARTAKERS OF CHRIST , IF , IF , IF , we hold the confidence FIRM TO THE END , TO THE END , TO THE END .
But if we say that to an OSAS solider they say we aint trusting IN CHRIST . NO sir its they who do not trust in CHRIST
or the apostels doctrine . THEY TRUST IN the HOLY MOTHER OSAS and that is A PROBLEM .
WE should TRUST IN JESUS . IN JESUS , IN ALL HIS WORDS , HIS WARNINGS , HIS PROMISES , they are all FOR OUR GOOD .
WE NEED OBEY and TRUST IN HIM , and not in men .

@amigo de christo

 

[bdavidc]

It is clearly seen my friend .
So the question that needs to be asked , stated and answered is
The JESUS or jesus one loveth MATTERS .
Example .
If a man cometh to a jesus that supports his rainbow , his love of money , whatever sinful lustful desire he has
and promises him salvation , WELL that JESUS CANNOT DELIVER or GIVE that man salvation
CAUSE IT AINT JESUS . HE aint the minstir of sin . What many may not realize is
satan and his co workers can preach what is known as another jesus . one that can promise salvation
BUT CANNOT GIVE IT . as it giveth them the delusion that their jesus accepts their sin .
THERE has been NO TRUE CONVERSION . CHRIST changes the heart
HE dont support the sin . but many follow a jesus that does support the sin
and they the same old man with the same lustful desire , Only they wrapped it all up in another image of god and jesus .
ANY GUESSES why i did not captlize that god that jesus . cause satan can wear wool as do many of his minstirs .
Marvel not . many have lip service but hearts are far from him . i should know , i was once king of the worst of them .
JESUS dont kiss korans , budda statues and make the path to GOD real broad and DENIES HIS OWN SELF .
but satan sure will . OH yes you are correct WE ARE IN A MASSIVE TIME OF MASSIVE DELUSION .
The time HAS COME , notice i didnt say WILL COME
but HAS COME WHEN THEY NO LONGER ENDURE SOUND DOCTRINE at all .

You’re correct, Paul did indeed talk about “another Jesus” (2 Corinthians 11:4). The true Christ never tolerates sin, He transforms lives. “If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature” (2 Corinthians 5:17). This is why genuine faith is always accompanied by obedience, and a “jesus” who allows someone to remain in their sin is not a savior at all.