The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics - see the evidence

[IndianaRob]

Paul said the gospel had been preached to all the world in his day

Colossians 1:5–6 (KJV)

5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth.

 

[HealthyShape]

The end has not happened. The gospel was not preached to every nation until just recently. Only just recently has this become a reality. Likely even every tribe has been reached. Obviously not every person has heard - that would be impossible since there are 385k births/ day >>>140 million/yr

This is obviously the kind of technical literalism that the first Church did not have in mind. By "the whole world", "every nation" etc. they meant the known civilized world of their times, not some futuristic hyper-literalism like bringing it to some 50 people tribes in Amazonia in 2020.

And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
(Lk 2:2)

your faith is being reported all over the world
R 1:8

the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world
Col 1:6

Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.
Acts 2:5

They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations.
Lk 21:24

 

[PinSeeker]

Rom. 11 is yet to be fulfilled.

Well, fully, yes. But it started to be fulfilled long ago.

A remnant Jewish population will be saved when Jesus comes.

Yes... but to what you say here, who is the true Jewish population? It's not regarding ethnicity, as we can see clearly throughout Paul's writings, particularly Romans 2:28-29, Romans 9-11, Ephesians 1:11-22, and... oh, Galatians 3:27-29.

1/3 is a fraction mentioned and there are some 15 million Jews.

Hmmm, so five million, give or take 1 or 2...? <smile>

The 144k are part of them.

The 144,000 are symbolic of all of them, all those of true Jewish heritage, all those in Christ ~ see above ~ which, in the terms of the very passages you are talking about here in Revelation 7 and 14, is an innumerable multitude. As the stars of heaven, the grains of sand on the seashore, as God told Abraham they would be.

The end has not happened.

Right, of course not.

The gospel was not preached to every nation until just recently.

Ah then why did Jesus tell his disciples to go and do it? Did they.. ignore him? <smile>

Only just recently has this become a reality.

It has been... becoming a reality, more and more, ever since Jesus's words of Matthew 28-19-20. Like James says ~ and this is not just to those who are living now or were just recently (whatever you mean by that) ~ we are to be doers of the word and not just hearers (James 1:14). And, as of now, there is still work to be done.

Grace and peace to you, Ronald.

 

[WPM]

Rom. 11 is yet to be fulfilled. A remnant Jewish population will be saved when Jesus comes. 1/3 is a fraction mentioned and there are some 15 million Jews. The 144k are part of them.

The end has not happened. The gospel was not preached to every nation until just recently. Only just recently has this become a reality. Likely even every tribe has been reached. Obviously not every person has heard - that would be impossible since there are 385k births/ day >>>140 million/yr

The first thing we see here is that the revelation of Jesus Christ at His return is expressly identified with “the end.” The second thing that we see here is that God’s people will be here to the end. This is an event which the Church is specifically instructed to remain strong till. We are exhorted to be watching and waiting for this great glorious impending climactic day.

Jesus’ response to His disciples in Matthew 24:6 and 13-14 is notable: “ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end [Gr. telos] is not yet ... But he that shall endure unto the end [Gr. telos], the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end [Gr. telos] come.”

“The end of the age” is normally described as “the end.”

This is talking about the perseverance of the saints until the coming of Christ at the end. The Greek word interpreted “endure” is hupomenō actually meaning to tarry, remain, suffer, undergo, or bear (as in trials).

The redeemed will be on earth right up until the end where they will be rewarded by being given power over the nations. This is the great and final judgment where Christ pours out final and eternal justice.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

The "soon" time frame is in the beginning and in the end of the whole book. You demonstrated no reason why to ascribe it just to the chapters 2 and 3.

So far it seems that you do it just because you want to.

Yeah ... that's it ... you got me.

 

[Bladerunner]

Cerinthus

The first promoter of what we know today as modern-day Premillennialism was Cerinthus who lived in the first century, who was strongly opposed by the early Christian Church. Cerinthus was from Western Asia Minor (now Turkey) and lived around AD 100. He was a shady individual who promoted a perverted blend of Judaism and Christianity. Two issues that seem to stand out more than anything else in his writings are his heretical Gnostic beliefs and his eschatological Premillennialism. That is not to say that Premillennialism is in any way heretical, it is not! Notwithstanding, these two matters are the preeminent focus of early Church criticism of him.

Marcion

The second was Marcion of Sinope, Asia Minor who was born in AD 85 and died in AD 160. He was a pupil of the arch-heretic Cerdo – a Syrian, who taught in Rome AD 140, and whose doctrines resembled those of Cerinthus. Marcion succeeded Cerdo at Rome, about AD 160, after he had been excommunicated at Sinope (AD 140) by his father, the Bishop of that city, in punishment of a heinous crime

Cerinthus and Marcion seem to have been the first to formulate and propagate many of the main accepted fundamentals of the school of thought that is popularly known today as Premillennialism. Many of these core beliefs were rejected by early Chiliasts. They cut across their perfect expectation of a future millennial earth.

Porphyry/Porphyrius

The 3rd character who arose and taught modern-day-type Premillennialism was also dubious. That was the blasphemer Porphyry from AD 232- 305). His parents named him Malchus but his teacher in Athens, Cassius Longinus, gave him the name Porphyrius. He was a Neoplatonic philosopher who became a great enemy of the early Church and truth. He joined a heretical group of Plotinus in Rome where he studied philosophy. Augustine called him “the most notable pagan philosopher.”

Apollinarius

Later, in the fourth century, Apollinarius, who was also viewed as a heretic, took up the baton from the early heretical pioneers. He too departed from orthodoxy in his belief that divinity and humanity could not be united and reconciled in one person. He thought that Jesus did not have a human consciousness, but only a divine one. Apollinarius also came from Asia Minor, the bedrock of Millennialism, from the city of Laodicea. He is said to have lived between AD 310-390. He too was an early advocate of what we know today as Premillenialism.

Asia Minor was the origin of the modern-day Premillenialist theory. The earliest exponents of it were indeed notable heretics. While modern-day evangelical Premils do not necessity look to Cerinthus, Marcion, Porphyry/Porphyrius and Apollinari,

what is Premillenialism? you can talk all day long on who promoted it and who did not..You can call it a heresey but the fact remains, that the prophecies of Daniel 9,10,11 and 12 have not fallen upon any peoples of the earth to date. Daniel's 70th week (Dan 9:27) will happen before the 1000 years of physical rule by Jesus Christ on this earth.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

The first thing we see here is that the revelation of Jesus Christ at His return is expressly identified with “the end.” The second thing that we see here is that God’s people will be here to the end. This is an event which the Church is specifically instructed to remain strong till. We are exhorted to be watching and waiting for this great glorious impending climactic day.

Jesus’ response to His disciples in Matthew 24:6 and 13-14 is notable: “ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end [Gr. telos] is not yet ... But he that shall endure unto the end [Gr. telos], the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end [Gr. telos] come.”

“The end of the age” is normally described as “the end.”

This is talking about the perseverance of the saints until the coming of Christ at the end. The Greek word interpreted “endure” is hupomenō actually meaning to tarry, remain, suffer, undergo, or bear (as in trials).

The redeemed will be on earth right up until the end where they will be rewarded by being given power over the nations. This is the great and final judgment where Christ pours out final and eternal justice.

Sorry, I see the end of the age He is speaking of is this current world system with many false religions, where 2/3 of the world have rejected Jesus and gone their own way. A new world filled with only Christians filled with the knowledge and reverence of the Lord, a Millennial Kingdom _ with Jesus as King _ in Jerusalem _ will be a new age. Then an end to that age will come, the end of the 1st earth, 1st heavens, end of all former things, sin, death, Hades and everyone in it, Satan and his demons, and replacing it with the New Jerusalem (eternal heaven).

 

[WPM]

what is Premillenialism? you can talk all day long on who promoted it and who did not..You can call it a heresey but the fact remains, that the prophecies of Daniel 9,10,11 and 12 have not fallen upon any peoples of the earth to date. Daniel's 70th week (Dan 9:27) will happen before the 1000 years of physical rule by Jesus Christ on this earth.

That is just your opinion. But, I believe your opinion is wrong.

Also, when did I say premillennialism was heresy?

 

[WPM]

Sorry, I see the end of the age He is speaking of is this current world system with many false religions, where 2/3 of the world have rejected Jesus and gone their own way. A new world filled with only Christians filled with the knowledge and reverence of the Lord, a Millennial Kingdom _ with Jesus as King _ in Jerusalem _ will be a new age. Then an end to that age will come, the end of the 1st earth, 1st heavens, end of all former things, sin, death, Hades and everyone in it, Satan and his demons, and replacing it with the New Jerusalem (eternal heaven).

Your portrayal is false. Who are these billions of wicked phonies that feign worship to Jesus in your so-called future millennium that then turn on Jesus, and surround God's people in their glorified bodies at the end?

 

[WPM]

Sorry, I see the end of the age He is speaking of is this current world system with many false religions, where 2/3 of the world have rejected Jesus and gone their own way. A new world filled with only Christians filled with the knowledge and reverence of the Lord, a Millennial Kingdom _ with Jesus as King _ in Jerusalem _ will be a new age. Then an end to that age will come, the end of the 1st earth, 1st heavens, end of all former things, sin, death, Hades and everyone in it, Satan and his demons, and replacing it with the New Jerusalem (eternal heaven).

Look at what Scripture teaches and you will see Premil cannot be.

• The second coming is "the end" (telos). Premils have no difficulty with the meaning of the phrase "the beginning" but they conveniently become sheepish and kafuffled when it comes the meaning of “the end.” That is because it exposes their theology.
• Time shall be no more at the last trumpet. We are then into eternity. There will be no more need for watches or calendars. This forbids a future protracted period of time full of the bondage of corruption.
• We are currently in the “last (eschatos) days” (plural) since the beginning of Christ's earth ministry, but these are shown in Scripture to have an end. The “last (or final or ultimate) day” (singular) is said to occur at Christ's coming. This also negates Premil.
• The end of the age happens at the return of Christ and sees the general resurrection/judgment. There are no supposed 1000 years in-between both resurrection/judgments. That is a Premil invention. The only argument for that comes from a false reading of 1 symbolic chapter in the most figurative book in the Bible - 3 chapter before the end of Scripture. Think about that!

 

[HealthyShape]

Yeah ... that's it ... you got me.

Yes, it seems so. And it is so simple, is it not? Instead of inventing complicated personal interpretations, one just need to check the text itself.

 

[covenantee]

what is Premillenialism? you can talk all day long on who promoted it and who did not..You can call it a heresey but the fact remains, that the prophecies of Daniel 9,10,11 and 12 have not fallen upon any peoples of the earth to date. Daniel's 70th week (Dan 9:27) will happen before the 1000 years of physical rule by Jesus Christ on this earth.

Have Daniel's 69 weeks fallen upon any peoples of the earth to date?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Your portrayal is false. Who are these billions of wicked phonies that feign worship to Jesus in your so-called future millennium that then turn on Jesus, and surround God's people in their glorified bodies at the end?

You're confused. People have been trying to explain the Millennial Kingdom for years and you just don't get it. Why should I waste my time? As I said earlier, it's futile. Keep your view and watch it crumble ... soon.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Yes, it seems so. And it is so simple, is it not? Instead of inventing complicated personal interpretations, one just need to check the text itself.

I was joking, you don't have me! Jesus says," I am coming soon", in Rev. 22 as well, to a different generation. He simply wants all generations to anticipate His imminent return, at any time, so that we do not relax, slumber, we stay focused. And so every generation in a sense had this hope.
Billy Graham said this about the end being near for everyone, in all generations, because whether the Great Tribulation occured in their generation or not, we all die and that is the end of time for each person ... and then we see Him coming or go down to that other place.

 

[WPM]

You're confused. People have been trying to explain the Millennial Kingdom for years and you just don't get it. Why should I waste my time? As I said earlier, it's futile. Keep your view and watch it crumble ... soon.

Not so. I am very familiar with it. I once held it and taught it. However, I realized the position was totally uncorroborated. I noticed that Premillennialism contradicted multiple Scriptures.

Premillennialists cannot engage any longer in extended discussions on this subject on forums like this because their position is untenable. That is why they always run. The battle has been long won.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Not so. I am very familiar with it. I once held it and taught it. However, I realized the position was totally uncorroborated. I noticed that Premillennialism contradicted multiple Scriptures.

Premillennialists cannot engage any longer in extended discussions on this subject on forums like this because their position is untenable. That is why they always run.

I can extend it, but you will reject it.
It's not just the literal interpretation of Rev. 20, but OT prophesies and most importantly, covenants:

It is important to mention Covenants briefly. Covenants need to be fulfilled, specifically to Israel, to Jesus, to nations and creation during Jesus’ 1,000-year reign.

The Palestinian Covenant, also called the Land Covenant (Deuteronomy 30:1-10)⁸
Abraham did go to the Promised Land, he did have many descendants, and he is the father of many nations. Joshua led the Israelites to claim ownership of the promised Land.
>>>BUT specific boundaries were never possessed by Israel, not even under King Solomon. (see Numbers 34:1-12.)

Abrahamic Covenant states His descendants would have the land forever (aionios, ages) The nations would be blessed by him.

“for all the land which you see, I will give it to you and to your descendants forever.” Gen. 13:15

“Nevertheless, I will remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. Ezek. 16:60

The Davidic Covenant
2 Samuel 7:16 says that
David’s heir (Jesus), would sit on the throne of Israel forever. (when aionios is applied to God, it means eternal)

The New Covenant

Jeremiah 31:31-32 describes the New Covenant. But the Lord is not done with Israel, she will be grafted in as well into the Church. Verses 33-34 state, “But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.”

Christians do have the New Covenant, the law written in our hearts and we have the Lord our God dwelling inside us but Ezekiel 36:28 gives more specifics concerning Israel: “You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.” That is Jesus btw.
Romans 11 says that during the Great Tribulation Israel will be saved (showing a distinct difference from the Gentile Church, but then they will finally be grafted in - not every Jew, but a remnant 1/3).
Other passage ... what time frame would you onser these passages?
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.”Zech. 14:16

> After the Great Tribulation, which is not a destruction of the earth, nations and languages still exist!
> Aftertthe destruction of the first earth, the first heavens, Death, Hades and everyone in it, there will not be nations or multiple languages anymore, only tue New Jerusalem, with billions of Christians who speak one language.

For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ages: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ages and ages. But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.” Isaiah 34:8-11

> brimstone is from volcanic eruptions on the First Earth.

Now it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established on top of the mountains and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow to it. Many people shall come and say, 'Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, and we shall walk in His paths. For out of Zion shall come forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He shall judge between the nations and rebuke many people; they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." Isaiah 2:2-4)

> "latter days"? Remember, the first heavens (that means the sun and moon and universe) are destroyed in a fervent heat
(2 Peter 3:10). So no more nights, no more days.

Isaiah 11:6–9 "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young ones shall lie down together; and the Lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play by the cobra's hole and the weaned child shall out his hand in the viper's den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in My Holy mountain. For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea."
> Millennial Kingdom on the first earth, where there are still children being born, growing. The New Jerusalem will have only people with resurrected body - no more marriage, no more procreation.

No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed. Isaiah 65:20

 

[WPM]

I can extend it, but you will reject it.
It's not just the literal interpretation of Rev. 20, but OT prophesies and most importantly, covenants:

It is important to mention Covenants briefly. Covenants need to be fulfilled, specifically to Israel, to Jesus, to nations and creation during Jesus’ 1,000-year reign.

The Palestinian Covenant, also called the Land Covenant (Deuteronomy 30:1-10)⁸
Abraham did go to the Promised Land, he did have many descendants, and he is the father of many nations. Joshua led the Israelites to claim ownership of the promised Land.
>>>BUT specific boundaries were never possessed by Israel, not even under King Solomon. (see Numbers 34:1-12.)

Abrahamic Covenant states His descendants would have the land forever (aionios, ages) The nations would be blessed by him.

“for all the land which you see, I will give it to you and to your descendants forever.” Gen. 13:15

“Nevertheless, I will remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. Ezek. 16:60

The Davidic Covenant
2 Samuel 7:16 says that
David’s heir (Jesus), would sit on the throne of Israel forever. (when aionios is applied to God, it means eternal)

The New Covenant

Jeremiah 31:31-32 describes the New Covenant. But the Lord is not done with Israel, she will be grafted in as well into the Church. Verses 33-34 state, “But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.”

Christians do have the New Covenant, the law written in our hearts and we have the Lord our God dwelling inside us but Ezekiel 36:28 gives more specifics concerning Israel: “You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.” That is Jesus btw.
Romans 11 says that during the Great Tribulation Israel will be saved (showing a distinct difference from the Gentile Church, but then they will finally be grafted in - not every Jew, but a remnant 1/3).
Other passage ... what time frame would you onser these passages?
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.”Zech. 14:16

> After the Great Tribulation, which is not a destruction of the earth, nations and languages still exist!
> Aftertthe destruction of the first earth, the first heavens, Death, Hades and everyone in it, there will not be nations or multiple languages anymore, only tue New Jerusalem, with billions of Christians who speak one language.

For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ages: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ages and ages. But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.” Isaiah 34:8-11

> brimstone is from volcanic eruptions on the First Earth.

Now it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established on top of the mountains and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow to it. Many people shall come and say, 'Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, and we shall walk in His paths. For out of Zion shall come forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He shall judge between the nations and rebuke many people; they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." Isaiah 2:2-4)

> "latter days"? Remember, the first heavens (that means the sun and moon and universe) are destroyed in a fervent heat
(2 Peter 3:10). So no more nights, no more days.

Isaiah 11:6–9 "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young ones shall lie down together; and the Lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play by the cobra's hole and the weaned child shall out his hand in the viper's den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in My Holy mountain. For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea."
> Millennial Kingdom on the first earth, where there are still children being born, growing. The New Jerusalem will have only people with resurrected body - no more marriage, no more procreation.

No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed. Isaiah 65:20

Where is a future millennium mentioned in Isaiah 65:19-25? Nowhere! Premils force their beliefs into the sacred text where it does not belong. This is called eisegesis not exegesis. Text, context and co-text do not seem to matter to them.

Isaiah 65:17-21 declares, “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.”

The prophet Isaiah is seeing a reversal of the curse in a new perfected arrangement, albeit in a veiled vision set in the context of the old covenant. Isaiah’s revelation is of an idealized earth on which creation is changed and life is transformed to a state unknown to fallen creation. It shows how this current corrupted earth and the heavens become supernaturally changed at a certain future point, which results in creation being delivered from the bondage of corruption and imprinted with eternity.

Allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture and not imposing a private interpretation on this Old Testament chapter requires letting New Testament Scripture explain and locate the “new heavens and a new earth.” After all, it is the fuller and brighter revelation. To ignore this is folly!

Revelation expressly locates the new earth after the millennial period and not at the beginning. It correlates with the detail of Isaiah 65. Revelation 21:1-5 tells us: “I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

It is so important to let Scripture speak for itself. In doing that we are able to accurately comprehend the inspired detail pertaining to any truth or event. This is never more needed than when it comes to the return of Christ and what follows this occurrence. There is no other subject where men force their own bias beliefs upon the sacred text more than eschatology. It is breathtaking how most of the normal necessary accepted hermeneutical rules are ignored or discarded to fit man’s theology on end-times. There is therefore no other topic where such great diligent needs to be employed and strong corroboration must be brought to the table.

When we look at this event before us, as we take the text literally, and as we interpret Scripture in its most plain and obvious sense, we immediately recognize, nothing precedes the first of anything. In this text, we see that the first heaven and the first earth that we currently populate (and which is blighted with the awful consequences of the curse), are not changed until the new heaven and new earth arrive. This expressly occurs after the millennium in Revelation 21.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Where is a future millennium mentioned in Isaiah 65:19-25? Nowhere! Premils force their beliefs into the sacred text where it does not belong. This is called eisegesis not exegesis. Text, context and co-text do not seem to matter to them.

Isaiah 65:17-21 declares, “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.”

The prophet Isaiah is seeing a reversal of the curse in a new perfected arrangement, albeit in a veiled vision set in the context of the old covenant. Isaiah’s revelation is of an idealized earth on which creation is changed and life is transformed to a state unknown to fallen creation. It shows how this current corrupted earth and the heavens become supernaturally changed at a certain future point, which results in creation being delivered from the bondage of corruption and imprinted with eternity.

Allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture and not imposing a private interpretation on this Old Testament chapter requires letting New Testament Scripture explain and locate the “new heavens and a new earth.” After all, it is the fuller and brighter revelation. To ignore this is folly!

Revelation expressly locates the new earth after the millennial period and not at the beginning. It correlates with the detail of Isaiah 65. Revelation 21:1-5 tells us: “I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

It is so important to let Scripture speak for itself. In doing that we are able to accurately comprehend the inspired detail pertaining to any truth or event. This is never more needed than when it comes to the return of Christ and what follows this occurrence. There is no other subject where men force their own bias beliefs upon the sacred text more than eschatology. It is breathtaking how most of the normal necessary accepted hermeneutical rules are ignored or discarded to fit man’s theology on end-times. There is therefore no other topic where such great diligent needs to be employed and strong corroboration must be brought to the table.

When we look at this event before us, as we take the text literally, and as we interpret Scripture in its most plain and obvious sense, we immediately recognize, nothing precedes the first of anything. In this text, we see that the first heaven and the first earth that we currently populate (and which is blighted with the awful consequences of the curse), are not changed until the new heaven and new earth arrive. This expressly occurs after the millennium in Revelation 21.

“No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,

>> Death still exist ms in the Millennial Kingdom! BUT AFTER the MK, Death and Hades are destroyed. This is still the 1st earth, just restored.

But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.

>> building houses and planting vineyards is NOT describing the New Jerusalem ( a new heaven on a new earth). Thr New Jerusalem replaces the 1st EARTH. THE Lord prepared dwellings for us and the fruited trees described that changearenot like what we plant now.
"And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month."
Additionally outside the New Jerusalem, there isno sun or moon (first heavens that passed away.

 

[PinSeeker]

Two simple things (at least they should be simple, but we have a way of... complicating things... :)...

• God's true Israel, at any given time, all the way back to Abraham's day, consists of all those who have been called by God and born again of the Spirit and thus in Christ.
• The "millennium" of Revelation 20 is synonymous with "these last days" of Hebrews 1:2... in which God "has spoken to us by His Son" and is, again, at any given time from the first century to now, and up to the time when the fullness of the Gentiles are brought into God's Israel and the partial hardening now on Israel removed... all Israel is saved (Romans 11:25-26).

Death still exist ms in the Millennial Kingdom!

It does, yes. But one day it will be no more. He will wipe every tear from our eyes...

Grace and peace to all.

 

[covenantee]

The Palestinian Covenant, also called the Land Covenant (Deuteronomy 30:1-10)⁸
Abraham did go to the Promised Land, he did have many descendants, and he is the father of many nations. Joshua led the Israelites to claim ownership of the promised Land.
>>>BUT specific boundaries were never possessed by Israel, not even under King Solomon. (see Numbers 34:1-12.)

Joshua 21
43 And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44 And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

This Scripture directly refutes your claim.