Death will be no more, due to no more births.
- Thread starter Earburner
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Rev. 6:9-11
[9] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar [of the OC] the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held [Malachi 3:16-18]
[10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
[11] And WHITE ROBES were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants [born again Christians] also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
> No longer are the names of the faithful of OC. Israel found written in the book of Remembrance, but NOW, ever since Jesus was GLORIFIED, they have been transferred and are PERMANENTLY secured INTO the book of Life, who is Jesus.
We now know of them as the figurative 144,000 of OC. Israel.
John 7
[38] He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
[39] (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was NOT YET GIVEN; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Please reference my post #157 for more details.
Edit:
As for the "Transfiguration" of Jesus, if there were any other "guests" at that event, besides the 3 disciples, they were angels.
John 1:49-51
[51] And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
Last edited:
Jesus rules over all creation.....all power in heaven and earth was given to Him after His resurrection. He was talking "in a manner of speaking" in that end of the age harvest verse, similar to other passages of the bible which is in spiritual language. He is tolerating and longsuffering the existence of sin and evil for now, but not forever. When He returns He will consume and swallow it all up in the consuming fire of His wrath. I believe that what happened to Israel in 70AD was an "ensample" of how it will go concerning the Gentile nations/world going forward. If the time came when He spared not Israel in her apostasy, a time will come when He will not spare the church in her apostasy or the unbelieving world who rejects Christ either.
I believe that this rebellion and rejection is going to climax at Jerusalem again, sadly, with a false ecumenical interfaith religion that people of all nations will join in.
1 Thes. 5
[3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden** destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
** Note: Mark 13:35-37; Luke 17:28-30
I don't think they are arguments as such, but "ears to hear" kinds of things. Biblical principles to help us understand what the Spirit is saying. Kind of like "first the natural, then the spiritual" is also a principle.
John 7 was talking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. There is no other info to refute what i said, only notable avoidance.
Ok, so are you saying all people, both the saved and unsaved, are currently in the kingdom of God? If so, can you explain how you’re interpreting John 3:5 which seems to be saying only a saved person can enter into the kingdom of God?
You are not paying attention to the symbolism of what a "white robe" means.
Clue: every born again Christian IS GIVEN the white robe, the moment they convert to Christ. For us, He is the very vehicle of the Gift of Eternal Life. 1 John 5:11-13.
Q. Why was it that those who were "under the altar", who had died in faith, did NOT HAVE A white robe, the Gift of the Holy Spirit???
A. Because the Holy Spirit had not yet been given. NO ONE who died "under the altar" of the OC, could receive a "white robe" UNTIL AFTER Jesus' death and resurrection. Rev. 6:9-11.
John 7
[39] (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given [permanently to anyone]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.).
Were there "many" of OC Israel, who were of faith in the "Promise" of the Messiah to come, such as Moses etc? Yes indeed, even the many whose names are never mentioned.
Mat. 27:50-54 is about the "many" of Israel who died in faith under the altar of the OC, who were waiting for the promise of the Messiah to come. It is they who are the figurative 144,000.
The best that God could do for those who died in faith under the OC., was to write their names in a "book of Remembrance", UNTIL AFTER the event of Jesus' death and resurrection took place. Malachi 3-16-18. As soon as it did, their names were then written in the book of Life, who is Jesus Himself.
Edit: reference my post #162
Last edited:
No, only the saved are in the eternal kingdom of God. But He is creator and sovereign ruler of things that are temporal too (earth and man). He is usually referring to His eternal/spiritual kingdom, but in this instance He is just using the term more loosely, in a manner of speaking, to include this temporal earth, in order to illustrate that He is going to gather out and destroy out of existence, from both heaven and earth, everything that is evil. I think that is the best I can explain it.
Wow, I will have to consider it some more, but this makes sense to me, thank you.
Most of us have imbibed and assume that the book of Revelation is all about the future and eschatology, when actually much of it is a reiteration or revelation and summing up of the earlier scriptures that came before it, and the gospel. It can be very hard to get that "futuristic" bug out of one's head in order to understand and look at Revelation with fresh eyes, without eschatological preconceptions, but the Lord was gracious to help me get started, just in very recent years.
Ok, thanks for your explanation. I was thinking there is a way that both only saved people can enter into the kingdom while at the same time there are offenders in the kingdom.
Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Based on this verse it appears that prior to the cross people were entering the kingdom by way of the old covenant Law. The scribes and Pharisees were interpreting that Law in an onerous way which made it difficult or impossible for people to follow, while they themselves didn’t obey the Law.
After the cross things changed, in the new covenant the only way to enter into the kingdom is by being born again.
So if we say there was a harvest in 70AD then we can see that the offenders were those who entered the kingdom, prior to the cross, by way of the old covenant Law. They were offenders and did iniquity because they didn’t embrace forgiveness of their sins through the blood of the Lamb but through the Law. This view would harmonize with when the old covenant vanished out of the Church.
That’s my two cents on how it’s possible to have both offenders in the kingdom and only believers being able to enter into it.
I don't think you fully grasp what Jesus is meaning throughout Matthew 23. For example. Note that He calls them hypocrites multiple times.
The scribes and Pharisees were hypocrites but a “regular”, non-office holding Jew wasn’t a hypocrite per se, they were just trying to keep the Law. So a “regular” Jew who kept the Law but rejected Jesus could be considered an offender and them which do iniquity after the cross because those offenses and iniquities weren’t paid for by the blood of the Lamb. At least until the point they would accept Jesus as the Messiah.
You got it! The only thing I would add is the white robes are the righteousness of Christ that those under the alter got at the cross and everyone after gets when they come to Christ.
Amen to all that you say!
Once a born again Christian is set firmly in the fundamentals of our relationship with God and His salvation plan through Jesus, we begin to understand the difference of what "the wisdom of men" (church-ianity) teaches as opossed to what the Holy Spirit teaches. From there we begin to realize that we really "do not need any man to teach us". That's why I often urge all to read and study all of 1 Cor. ch. 2.
As for the book of Revelation, yes church-ianity does tend to see it to be all futuristic.
However, I perceive we are seeing the whole mind of God speaking His Eternal Spiritual thoughts about the past, present and future all at the same time. Isa. 55:8-9.
Only with the help of the Holy Spirit and the context of the Bible, are we able to sort out the many individual visions in their correct applications. (...without me you can do nothing- John 15:5)
John's labor of hand writing out 22 chapters of individual visions onto parchment papers, was not all done in one sitting.
Edit: speaking of John hearing and seeing the prophecies shown to him, and then writing them in the book of Revelation, has anyone ever thought about his testimony as a prophet, that he was to prophesy again, HAS already been fulfilled?
Rev. 10
[8] And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.
[9] And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
[10] And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
[11] And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy AGAIN before MANY peopleS, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
Q. Aren't we all today, a recipient of John prophesying AGAIN before MANY peopleS??
A. Yes! We are. Every time we go to read from the BOOK of Revelation.
Last edited:
Amen. As well as that perhaps we are to understand these things on a personal individual level, and not always or exclusively in a corporate historical way. I sometimes seem to glimpse, although not very clearly yet, and have heard others testify, that at least some (or partially) of what is written is applicable to us as individuals in a timeless kind of way. For example, where it says ,"night cometh when no man can work"....I was taught that it is talking about the darkness of a tribulation period....but I believe now it is speaking of when we die, as individuals.....or it could be referring to both at the same time.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Why are you not addressing anything I said specifically? The NT authors were speaking from God's eternal perspective. Christ's coming was always near from God's perspective.
How can you think that Peter was saying that the end of all things was literally at hand from the human perspective when he wrote that? Would you agree that 2 Peter 3:10-12 describes the end of all things? Do you think what he described there is already fulfilled? It absolutely is not. Do you care if you interpret one verse or passage in such a way that contradicts other verses or passages? Or are you just another cherry picker?
But, it doesn't symbolically represent nothing. It symbolically represents a large number such as when it talks about God's promises applying to a thousand generations (Deuteronomy 7:9) or that God owns the cattle on a thousand hills (Psalm 50:10). The thousand years, though it is symbolic, clearly has a beginning and ending because it says in Revelation 20:3 and Revelation 20:7 that Satan is loosed when the thousand years ends. So, what time period do you think the thousand years symbolically represents?
Come on. I don't know who you think I am, but I don't buy weak arguments like this. Is this all you have?
Similar threads
