Understanding PARABLES

[FaithWillDo]

One thing at a time.

Above you say that "the Elect will travel to their moment of conversion" as if meaning "each one in his own order"--that much is good and correct. But then you go on to say what "is unfulfilled" until a "future" "bodily resurrection from the grave"...as if not "each one in his own order", but in mass, yet in the future. Perhaps you should explain just how those two statements reconcile.

Dear ScottA,
The bodily resurrection mentioned in the book of Revelation occurs at the end of this age. Until that event occurs, every person who has ever lived & died is still in the grave and has no consciousness. Paul's comments to the Thessalonians in 1Thes 4:13-18 confirms this truth.
After the bodily resurrection takes place, Rev 20:11-15 will happen (separating the sheep from the goats). This event will begin the next and final age when the Elect (sheep) will reign with Christ and the balance of mankind (goats) will be judged.

For something to still be unfulfilled does not mean that the Elect will not keep that saying. All the Elect will keep that saying, just not before they physically die. However, all the teachings that apply to the conversion of an Elect person will happen to them prior to their physical deaths.

Here is the scripture you are referring to that mentions "each in his own order":

1Cor 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection from the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Paul is ONLY teaching on the bodily resurrection from the grave that leads to life and not to the resurrection that leads to damnation.

This verse applies:

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

If you don't believe that Christ will save all mankind as the prophets have proclaimed, then you are not going to be able to understand what Paul is teaching in 1Cor 15:20-28. In that scripture, Paul is only teaching about the resurrection that leads to life. And as Paul says, the resurrection to life applies to all who have died in Adam (all mankind). Paul then adds that there is an order to it.

The order is broken down in three parts as Paul says:

1). Christ is first.
2). The Elect are second. This resurrection to life occurs at the end of this age.
3). The balance of mankind will be third. This resurrection to life happens at the "consummation" of the ages (the end of the final age).

After the resurrection to life that occurs at the consummation of the ages, all mankind will be saved and bodily resurrected to life.

This scripture will then be "testified" to be true:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Christ will then deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven (now containing all mankind) to His Father and God will then be "all in all".

Joe

 

[Jack]

Christ will then deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven (now containing all mankind) to His Father and God will then be "all in all".

Joe

And BILLIONS of human will burn in Hell FOREVER! Jesus said so.

 

[FaithWillDo]

That sounds like a formula of perhaps the best practices of men. However, I have a better formula, called being "caught up to the third heaven." I wasn't going to jump right into that, but felt the need to be clear on this point.

Dear ScottA,
I don't see how Paul's experience of being caught up to the third heaven as anything to do with each Elect person keeping the sayings of the book of Revelation.
Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

You have not shown how "All the Elect will experience eating the little book just as Paul did", let alone how John did. Nor have you shown how all Elect since Pentecost ate what was under restraint--that is not what Paul wrote of He who restrains. You also have not shown how all the Elect came to know "the mystery of God as he declared to his servants the prophets" but did not declare it. Or how it was reported that the seventh angel had sounded in the hearing of any Elect who gave witness, not even John or Paul, for they did not declare it as having come to them. But John rather reported that the angel had not come except as prophecy, and that he was not allowed to even write all that was revealed to him. In short, you have not shown reconciliation of all the scriptures.

Now, I know how all these things reconcile--but you have not shown that you are clear on it. But I fear that we have already made it a contest, which it need not be. In which case, I would ask you to consider whether you know these things from God--or have only determined that you have.

Dear ScottA,
All those "things" are reconciled by the conversion of each Elect person. After a person is converted, the mystery of God for them is finished because Christ appears to them. In other words, the veil that has hidden Christ from them is removed.

Scripture teaches the pathway to salvation over and over again using DIFFERENT parables, analogies, prophecies and types. Those different teachings all use different spirit words that mean the same thing.

Eating the little book is the same event that each Elect person will experience AFTER Christ has given them the baptism of the Spirit (the Latter Rain) which heals their spiritual blindness. Eating the book (Word of God) means that they are being nourished by the truth of God. Eating the book is equivalent to eating bread and drinking New Wine.

You also referred to this scripture:

2Thes 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

This scripture is talking about the same thing that this scripture is teaching:

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:). 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: (because judgment is about to fall)

Both scriptures above are teaching about the spiritual state of an Elect believer just prior to their conversion. That spiritual state is one of being in a fallen away condition and under the deceptions of Satan. Paul called this type of believer a "man of sin" ("that Wicked"). In Revelation, this person is symbolized by a Seven Headed beast with ten horns/crowns. This apostate person is also called an anti-Christ, a minister of Satan and a false prophet.

When Christ returns to an apostate Elect believer, Christ will pour out the Latter Rain and will heal the person's spiritual blindness. After it has been healed, the person will "see" the Abomination of Desolation that previously occurred within God's Temple (themselves). This is when the "wicked" is revealed and when the person finds that the man of sin was the one looking back at them in the mirror all along.

After the Elect person has received the Latter Rain and has had their blindness healed, the new child of God will be born and gathered to heaven (spiritually speaking). The "man of sin", who this person used to be, is removed from within them and cast into the Lake of Fire for destruction. After the judgment of the man of sin, the Elect person will be converted and will only be governed by the Holy Spirit.

This scripture below applies to the judgment of the man of sin:

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field (contained in one Elect person); the one shall be taken (the man of sin/spirit of anti-Christ), and the other left (the child of God/Holy Spirit). 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill (contained in one Elect person); the one shall be taken (the person's carnal & sinful spirit), and the other left (the person's new divine spirit).

All the Elect will keep this saying.

Joe

 

[ScottA]

If you don't believe that Christ will save all mankind as the prophets have proclaimed, then you are not going to be able to understand what Paul is teaching in 1Cor 15:20-28. In that scripture, Paul is only teaching about the resurrection that leads to life. And as Paul says, the resurrection to life applies to all who have died in Adam (all mankind). Paul then adds that there is an order to it.

The order is broken down in three parts as Paul says:

1). Christ is first.
2). The Elect are second. This resurrection to life occurs at the end of this age.
3). The balance of mankind will be third. This resurrection to life happens at the "consummation" of the ages (the end of the final age).

You have the order wrong. Here is the correct order:

• "Christ the firstfruits" is first. "Firstfruits" being plural refers to "the dead in Christ"--that is, those who died before salvation and the Holy Spirit came.
• Next are "those who are Christ's" which Paul referred to as "we who are alive and remain" (alive in Christ in God having been born again of the spirit of God, but remaining in the world until the passing of the flesh), "at His coming." Which coming (again) is according to His explanation, saying, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me."
• "Then comes the end."

 

[ScottA]

After the resurrection to life that occurs at the consummation of the ages, all mankind will be saved and bodily resurrected to life.

This scripture will then be "testified" to be true:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Christ will then deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven (now containing all mankind) to His Father and God will then be "all in all".

There is a greater spiritual truth here (to the contrary), but I will leave it for now.

 

[ScottA]

Dear ScottA,
I don't see how Paul's experience of being caught up to the third heaven as anything to do with each Elect person keeping the sayings of the book of Revelation.
Joe

Yes, I am aware of the fact that you do not see it. But you might start with Paul being an apostle to the gentiles at the beginning rather than the end, and him seeing the whole of it before hand...as did John.

 

[ScottA]

Dear ScottA,
All those "things" are reconciled by the conversion of each Elect person. After a person is converted, the mystery of God for them is finished because Christ appears to them. In other words, the veil that has hidden Christ from them is removed.

Scripture teaches the pathway to salvation over and over again using DIFFERENT parables, analogies, prophecies and types. Those different teachings all use different spirit words that mean the same thing.

Eating the little book is the same event that each Elect person will experience AFTER Christ has given them the baptism of the Spirit (the Latter Rain) which heals their spiritual blindness. Eating the book (Word of God) means that they are being nourished by the truth of God. Eating the book is equivalent to eating bread and drinking New Wine.

You also referred to this scripture:

2Thes 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

This scripture is talking about the same thing that this scripture is teaching:

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:). 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: (because judgment is about to fall)

Both scriptures above are teaching about the spiritual state of an Elect believer just prior to their conversion. That spiritual state is one of being in a fallen away condition and under the deceptions of Satan. Paul called this type of believer a "man of sin" ("that Wicked"). In Revelation, this person is symbolized by a Seven Headed beast with ten horns/crowns. This apostate person is also called an anti-Christ, a minister of Satan and a false prophet.

When Christ returns to an apostate Elect believer, Christ will pour out the Latter Rain and will heal the person's spiritual blindness. After it has been healed, the person will "see" the Abomination of Desolation that previously occurred within God's Temple (themselves). This is when the "wicked" is revealed and when the person finds that the man of sin was the one looking back at them in the mirror all along.

After the Elect person has received the Latter Rain and has had their blindness healed, the new child of God will be born and gathered to heaven (spiritually speaking). The "man of sin", who this person used to be, is removed from within them and cast into the Lake of Fire for destruction. After the judgment of the man of sin, the Elect person will be converted and will only be governed by the Holy Spirit.

This scripture below applies to the judgment of the man of sin:

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field (contained in one Elect person); the one shall be taken (the man of sin/spirit of anti-Christ), and the other left (the child of God/Holy Spirit). 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill (contained in one Elect person); the one shall be taken (the person's carnal & sinful spirit), and the other left (the person's new divine spirit).

All the Elect will keep this saying.

Joe

Again, there is much that is true among all that you have said here above, but that does not explain away "the mystery of God" as "finished." In fact, it has not been "finished" in that way with the multitude of those who have been born of the spirit of God since Pentecost, at all. But rather, as it is written, there were "false teachers" among the elect teaching "destructive doctrines", and many were to "believe a lie" causing "strong delusion"--proving the times of the church age to be under the "restraint" that Paul spoke of. No one in whom "the mystery of God" is actually "finished", would "believe a lie." You are kidding yourself.

However--even so, the promise of Christ is that we be led unto "all truth"--which then, and only then--finds it revealing after the aforementioned apostacy, and just before the very end of the age, when the seventh angel "is about to sound." Which, I will tell you--is "the last trump."

But there is a greater reason for our stating certain things differently. Which is, that you have attempted (as men of the world naturally and innocently do) to see it all on a timeline. The problem is, the things of God--those things that we have been referring to--do not actually exist on a timeline. Which is "the mystery" and "time no longer"--time that was not listed in worldly terms as the end of time, but as coming before the end--because it was not referring to the end, but to "the mystery."

 

[FaithWillDo]

You have the order wrong. Here is the correct order:

• "Christ the firstfruits" is first. "Firstfruits" being plural refers to "the dead in Christ"--that is, those who died before salvation and the Holy Spirit came.
• Next are "those who are Christ's" which Paul referred to as "we who are alive and remain" (alive in Christ in God having been born again of the spirit of God, but remaining in the world until the passing of the flesh), "at His coming." Which coming (again) is according to His explanation, saying, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me."
• "Then comes the end."

Dear ScottA,
Your comments are interesting but I see some problems with your understanding.

Concerning your first point, those who died before salvation can only be the OT Faithful. Because of their faith, they are justified and will receive a "better resurrection" (Heb 11:35). However, they have not yet been made perfect (not been converted).

This verse applies:

Heb 11:39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

Since there can be no resurrection before Christ was resurrected, just when do you believe the OT Faithful were resurrected? I do not know of any scripture that says the OT Faithful were resurrected before the resurrection that comes at the end of this age.

Look at what Paul said to the Thessalonians:

1Thes 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

In verse 14, those who "sleep in Jesus" are the Elect who have physically died. This cannot be referring to the OT Faithful because they do not believe that Jesus died and rose again. Why? Because they have no knowledge of this event since they were already in the grave prior to Christ's death & resurrection. Then, in verse 16, Paul gives us a little more detail on what happens when the resurrection occurs. The dead in Christ are resurrected first and then the remainder of the Elect who have not physically died will join them in the clouds.

The only issue for me comes from verse 14 where it says "God will bring with Him". So the question is "When are the physically dead Elect resurrected so that Christ brings them with Him?" Paul does not say. However, verse 16 strongly suggests that they are resurrected just before the physically alive Elect are resurrected. If the Elect who have died have already been resurrected (like a reoccurring individual resurrection upon their death), then Paul would have told the Thessalonians that their loved ones were already resurrected and are with Christ. But Paul does not tell them this. Paul tells them about the coming resurrection that comes at the end of the age. It is this resurrection that is our "hope" and is what should give us comfort about our departed loved ones:

1Cor 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Acts 24:15 “I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

When Paul made these two statements, Christ was the only one who had been resurrected. It is assuming a lot to believe that Christ will resurrect anyone prior to the end of this age when the resurrection shown in Acts 24:15 & Rev 20:11-15 occurs.

Because of what I presented above, I still believe that "Christ the firstfruits" is only referring to Christ. The next to be resurrected are the Elect "who are his" (both the living and dead). This occurs at Christ's coming which happens at the end of this age. This event is the resurrection of the just and the unjust. It is at this time that the OT Faithful are resurrected. And because they are justified by their faith, they will be found in the Lamb's book of Life along with the Elect. However, the OT Faithful will still need to be made perfect (converted) with the help of the Elect.

I haven't read your other posts yet. I will try to respond to them this evening or in the morning.
Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Again, there is much that is true among all that you have said here above, but that does not explain away "the mystery of God" as "finished." In fact, it has not been "finished" in that way with the multitude of those who have been born of the spirit of God since Pentecost, at all. But rather, as it is written, there were "false teachers" among the elect teaching "destructive doctrines", and many were to "believe a lie" causing "strong delusion"--proving the times of the church age to be under the "restraint" that Paul spoke of. No one in whom "the mystery of God" is actually "finished", would "believe a lie." You are kidding yourself.

However--even so, the promise of Christ is that we be led unto "all truth"--which then, and only then--finds it revealing after the aforementioned apostacy, and just before the very end of the age, when the seventh angel "is about to sound." Which, I will tell you--is "the last trump."

But there is a greater reason for our stating certain things differently. Which is, that you have attempted (as men of the world naturally and innocently do) to see it all on a timeline. The problem is, the things of God--those things that we have been referring to--do not actually exist on a timeline. Which is "the mystery" and "time no longer"--time that was not listed in worldly terms as the end of time, but as coming before the end--because it was not referring to the end, but to "the mystery."

Dear ScottA,
I read your other posts and since this is the only one I need to respond to, I will do so now instead of later.

The "mystery of God" is only finished for a person when they are converted. The ending of the mystery of God is not a single event - it is a reoccurring event that happens to each person. In Rev 10, this statement made with the sounding of the 7th trumpet. The seventh trumpet describes the conversion event that will happen for each Elect person (the day and the hour is only known by the Father).

As for the apostasy of the church, it began immediately after Paul's death. By the end of the 1st century, all the churches were apostate and have remain so since that time. Because the apostasy is a step on the pathway to salvation for the Elect, most of the parables, prophecies, analogies and types which teach on the pathway include a time of being apostate.

The two scriptures which state the Elect will see the Abomination of Desolation/man of sin when their blindness is healed is given a third witness to this truth in the verse below:

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (day of salvation/conversion) I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and Rain (Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see (spiritual blindness healed) that your wickedness is great (have become apostate/a man of sin), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

Finally, concerning "time", everything that happens in this creation is happening during the ages of time set forth for the purpose of making God many new children. Time is moving forward and the events do has well. The phrase "time no longer" is only meaning that Christ is not going to delay the conversion of the Elect person any longer. You are reading way to much into that phrase.

Until you can accept the truth that all the Elect will experience the sayings of the prophecy, you are not going to understand the teachings of Revelation.

If you don't have anything else to argue or present, this is probably a good time to end our discussion.

Joe

 

[ScottA]

Concerning your first point, those who died before salvation can only be the OT Faithful. Because of their faith, they are justified and will receive a "better resurrection" (Heb 11:35). However, they have not yet been made perfect (not been converted).

All are saved by faith, those before Christ that He would come, and those after that He has come. And those in Christ who came before salvation and the Holy Spirit was sent, they precede us, thus are perfect in Christ before us, though we were first to receive new life in the Spirit. As it is written, "many who are first will be last, and the last first."

This verse applies:

Heb 11:39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

No, this verse refers to the promise of life everlasting before death "though he die, he shall surely live." In other words, they failed to enter into the kingdom by any other means, and therefore died in their sins. Even so, Messiah though only promised, was their salvation--"the Last" to die under the old covenant. They are "the dead in Christ." Who are "not apart from us", but with us "in Christ", the making of "one new man."

 

[ScottA]

Look at what Paul said to the Thessalonians:

1Thes 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

That's what I said.

 

[ScottA]

In verse 14, those who "sleep in Jesus" are the Elect who have physically died. This cannot be referring to the OT Faithful because they do not believe that Jesus died and rose again. Why? Because they have no knowledge of this event since they were already in the grave prior to Christ's death & resurrection. Then, in verse 16, Paul gives us a little more detail on what happens when the resurrection occurs. The dead in Christ are resurrected first and then the remainder of the Elect who have not physically died will join them in the clouds.

Yes, the Old Testament believers did had knowledge of the coming of Messiah--by prophecy, and by faith in His coming were saved by and in His death.

 

[ScottA]

The only issue for me comes from verse 14 where it says "God will bring with Him". So the question is "When are the physically dead Elect resurrected so that Christ brings them with Him?" Paul does not say. However, verse 16 strongly suggests that they are resurrected just before the physically alive Elect are resurrected. If the Elect who have died have already been resurrected (like a reoccurring individual resurrection upon their death), then Paul would have told the Thessalonians that their loved ones were already resurrected and are with Christ. But Paul does not tell them this. Paul tells them about the coming resurrection that comes at the end of the age. It is this resurrection that is our "hope" and is what should give us comfort about our departed loved ones:

You keep going on and on--do you not understand that this is so because you do not know? In any case, with each point I have need to address the issue(s):

I already explained this--the dead before Christ died in their sins, and those who believed in His coming were crucified and raised up with Him, preceding us only that they and Christ, whom was the Last, lived and died before us. When Paul said "I was crucified with Christ" this is what he meant, having been an Israelite under the Law, determined that he was counted with them. Even so, we too were crucified with Christ, for He too received the Spirit first and was then crucified after--which for Israel was after the fact and us before the fact--"many who are first are last, and the last first." Which is not to be unraveled according to times and timelines, but according to "time no more." This is the Spirit by which I have been speaking with you.

 

[ScottA]

The "mystery of God" is only finished for a person when they are converted.

That is not the "finish" of "the mystery of God" spoken of in Revelation 10:7.

You are referring to the spiritual resolve that comes with the peace of Christ in salvation. Very special, but not the wrap-up and revelation of all the higher knowledge included in the greater mystery of God. That is the finish--or it's not "finished." Your understanding and definition falls dreadfully short.

 

[ScottA]

As for the apostasy of the church, it began immediately after Paul's death. By the end of the 1st century, all the churches were apostate and have remain so since that time. Because the apostasy is a step on the pathway to salvation for the Elect, most of the parables, prophecies, analogies and types which teach on the pathway include a time of being apostate.

Yeah, so there goes your idea that it was "finished" for those at their time of conversion. They/we even now, may be finished at the point of death--but not finished having gained all truth at their conversion.

What is your own witness--have you gained "all truth" and "the mystery of God" to the extent of His higher knowledge--that qualifies to be called "finished?"

 

[FaithWillDo]

All are saved by faith, those before Christ that He would come, and those after that He has come. And those in Christ who came before salvation and the Holy Spirit was sent, they precede us, thus are perfect in Christ before us, though we were first to receive new life in the Spirit. As it is written, "many who are first will be last, and the last first."

No, this verse refers to the promise of life everlasting before death "though he die, he shall surely live." In other words, they failed to enter into the kingdom by any other means, and therefore died in their sins. Even so, Messiah though only promised, was their salvation--"the Last" to die under the old covenant. They are "the dead in Christ." Who are "not apart from us", but with us "in Christ", the making of "one new man."

Dear ScottA,
You are not listening to Hebrews 11 or to the Gospel of Christ. Faith is a gift from God and He gives it to whom He will. Once received, faith will justify the person before the Law - but it is not our salvation. Faith is what makes the pathway for Christ "straight" for Him to come to us and convert us. Spiritual conversion and our new spiritual body is our salvation and is the fulfillment of the promise that the OT Faithful saw from a distance but did not receive.
Joe

 

[ScottA]

Finally, concerning "time", everything that happens in this creation is happening during the ages of time set forth for the purpose of making God many new children. Time is moving forward and the events do has well. The phrase "time no longer" is only meaning that Christ is not going to delay the conversion of the Elect person any longer. You are reading way to much into that phrase.

Until you can accept the truth that all the Elect will experience the sayings of the prophecy, you are not going to understand the teachings of Revelation.

If you don't have anything else to argue or present, this is probably a good time to end our discussion.

So you say. But then again, so said those who taught the teachings of evil men warned of by Peter and Paul.

I have not been speaking in alignment with you or with them, but have been acting according to what I have been appointed to--which has no contemporaries that you should know of it, and yet it is foretold. But me telling you where and how, is not what I have been appointed to--but what I have been appointed to--that, I have told you. The fact that you do not recognize it, only places you in the company of those who could not discern the times past.

As for a time to end, if you are not up to enduring all, then yes, go your way.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Yes, the Old Testament believers did had knowledge of the coming of Messiah--by prophecy, and by faith in His coming were saved by and in His death.

Dear ScottA,
The OT Faithful have not been saved, they have only be justified. If they were saved, they would be made perfect by conversion.

Conversion requires Christ to come to a person and give them both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit, followed by judgment. Once a person has been converted, they will have a new spiritual make-up like the one Christ has. Their old marred spirit that has a carnal & religious spiritual nature will judged and destroyed. It will then be replaced with a new spirit that is governed by the Holy Spirit. With the governance of the Holy Spirit, the person's spirit will have a divine spiritual nature.

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

The verse below applies to the judgment portion of conversion:

Isa 66:16 For by fire (judgment) and by his sword (Word of God) will the LORD plead with all flesh (all mankind): and the slain of the LORD shall be many (all mankind).

Spiritual conversion is also called the First Resurrection. The First Resurrection is described in Rev chapter 19 using the marriage analogy. All the Elect will keep this saying.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

You keep going on and on--do you not understand that this is so because you do not know? In any case, with each point I have need to address the issue(s):

I already explained this--the dead before Christ died in their sins, and those who believed in His coming were crucified and raised up with Him, preceding us only that they and Christ, whom was the Last, lived and died before us. When Paul said "I was crucified with Christ" this is what he meant, having been an Israelite under the Law, determined that he was counted with them. Even so, we too were crucified with Christ, for He too received the Spirit first and was then crucified after--which for Israel was after the fact and us before the fact--"many who are first are last, and the last first." Which is not to be unraveled according to times and timelines, but according to "time no more." This is the Spirit by which I have been speaking with you.

Dear ScottA,
All the Elect are crucified with Christ when they are judged during the conversion process. Since the OT Faithful have not been converted, they have not been crucified with Christ.

You said:
Those who believed in His coming were crucified and raised up with Him.

There are no scriptures that support your understanding.

You mentioned the verse that says "many who are first will be last and the last first". This verse is talking about the Nation of Israel who were the first of mankind to be offered salvation under the New Covenant. The Gentiles were second. Since the Jews rejected Christ, most of the Jews will have to wait to receive their salvation in the final age AFTER the fullness of the Gentiles are saved.

The final age is when the Jewish leaders will be saved:

Mat 21:31 Which of the two was obeying his father?" They replied, "The first, of course." Then Jesus explained his meaning: "I assure you, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do.

Luke 12:59 I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.”

It is not a question of "if" Christ will save all mankind, it is only a matter of when, and the Jews will be last.

Joe