Survey - Is Repentance important to salvation?

[GodsGrace]

Hi Grace.. I was only referring to repentance and how some here see it as a WORK which is just stupid and to show that repentance comes to us as a result of seeing God's love for us.- in Christ.

Yes.
Agreed.

 

[bdavidc]

David was before the Cross. We are "in Christ". Shall we discuss the difference?


We are reconciled to God in Christ. The Bible is plain in this point. Reconciliation isn't some half-way measure.

2 Peter 1:3-4 KJV
3) According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4) Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Much love!

You’re missing the distinction Scripture makes between relationship and fellowship. David was still the child of God when he sinned, but he didn’t fellowship with God until he confessed his sin and experienced misery as a result. That principle is still in place. You quoted 2 Peter 1:3–4 but do you see what Peter is making the point of there? God has given us everything we need to live godly lives. That doesn’t mean that sin does not impact our walk with Him. John is writing to believers when he says, “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves… If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:8–9). That’s not talking about being reconciled in Christ once for all, that’s talking about daily cleansing so fellowship remains unhindered.

Reconciliation is a finished work at the Cross. That cannot be undone. Fellowship can be interrupted when a believer chooses sin and refuses to deal with it. That’s why Paul said, “Grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption” (Ephesians 4:30). Being sealed doesn’t mean sin has no consequence, it means sin doesn’t undo salvation, but it does disrupt communion with God until confession is made.

So yes David lived before the Cross, but the principle still stands. God has not changed and His children still know the weight of unconfessed sin. We are in Christ, reconciled fully, but when we sin and remain silent our fellowship with the Lord suffers until we humble ourselves and confess. That’s the plain testimony of Scripture.

 

[bdavidc]

1 Corinthians 4:3-5 KJV
3) But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4) For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5) Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

What it means is that Paul recognized that he was not qualified to judge himself. Not that we can't know things about ourselves. Notice what he says here.

"I know nothing by myself", "my conscience is clear, I'm not aware of doing wrong".

"Yet I am not hereby justified", "but that doesn't mean I haven't done anything wrong"

"He that judges me is the Lord", "will make manifest the counsels of the hearts", "It's Jesus that knows our hearts, therefore, He is our judge, not even we ourselves".

What is the significance to this? If you believe you must confess your sins to restore fellowship with God you are in a tough spot. Not even Paul thought he knew every sin he committed. So he deferred judgment to Jesus when He comes.

"Every man examine himself", but you left off the rest of the context, as though the passage were speaking towards our topic. But it does not. Examine yourself to see if you be in the faith. Don't handle the Word dishonestly. Craftily.

Trust in Jesus for your reconciliation, including having ongoing personal relationship with our Heavenly Father. For me, this fact more than any other is what empowers me against sin. That It's already been dealt with, and what's remaining is that I walk in the victory.

Turning that into legalism - no, you cannot have fellowship with God unless you are all confessed up - and - you will only be in fellowship with God until your next sin - is a faith killer, and is "fallen from grace".

Colossians 2:13-14 KJV
13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Much love!

No, you are obscuring what Scripture makes abundantly clear. Paul was not teaching we should look the other way when it comes to sin or that confession is somehow not needed. He was simply saying he was not living under man’s judgment or even resting in his own evaluation of himself. He knew that the final judgment of motives and hidden things of the heart belongs to the Lord. That doesn’t mean we can throw the plain command to confess sin out the window. John, writing directly to believers, said, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). That is not legalism, that is obedience.

You say that because Paul didn’t know every sin, confession is impossible. But Scripture never says confession requires perfect memory. The Spirit convicts of sin and the believer humbly responds in honesty before God. David said, “I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid” (Psalm 32:5). John echoes the same principle in the same context to the church. This is not about regaining our salvation, it is about fellowship being restored. Our salvation is secure in Christ. But fellowship can be damaged by unconfessed sin.

You also quoted Colossians 2:13–14 which says we have been completely forgiven at the Cross. Amen, that is true. Our legal status before God has been settled. But that does not mean our daily walk cannot be hindered. Paul told believers, “Grieve not the holy Spirit of God” (Ephesians 4:30). He told the Corinthians to examine themselves before the Lord’s Supper so they wouldn’t eat and drink judgment to themselves (1 Corinthians 11:28–30). That is present, practical accountability, not future only judgment.

Calling confession “fallen from grace” is a perverting Scripture. The Bible clearly ties confession to humility and fellowship. It is not tied to losing our salvation. It is not about trying to keep ourselves saved, it is about walking in the light with the God who has already saved us (1 John 1:7). If you throw that out, you are not magnifying grace, you are excusing carelessness. Grace teaches us to deny ungodliness (Titus 2: 11–12) and part of that denial is honest confession when we sin.

You are not defending grace here, you are redefining it to make ongoing sin seem like it has no impact on fellowship. But the Word of God does not support that. It gives a command to confess, it warns about grieving the Spirit, it commands believers to walk in the light. That is not legalism, that is biblical Christianity.

 

[bdavidc]

What does it mean if your "fellowship with God is broken"?

Do you no longer sense Him with you? Does He no longer speak into your heart? Do you feel you are praying into nothingness? Do you no longer have the testimony of the Spirit within?

What is it in your life that tells you "I'm no longer in fellowship with God"?

Much love!

Fellowship with God is not about if I feel something or sense something in my heart, it is about if I am walking in the light of His Word. The Bible says, “If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth” (1 John 1:6). That means fellowship is broken whenever sin is present and unconfessed, because I am not walking in the light. The measure is not emotion, it is obedience. Psalm 66: 18 says, “If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me.” That is what broken fellowship looks like, prayers hindered, joy gone, and the Spirit convicting instead of comforting. David put it plainly: “When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long” (Psalm 32:3). His sin did not disqualify him from being God’s child, but it did rob him of fellowship until he confessed.

Yes, broken fellowship can feel like praying into nothingness, but the deeper reality is that sin is in the way between the believer and God until it is dealt with. Yes, the Spirit still indwells within, but instead of giving peace He brings conviction, because His role is to lead us into holiness, not to comfort us in rebellion. No, fellowship is not about if I sense Him or not, it is about if I am walking in obedience. Scripture is clear: “If we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another” (1 John 1:7). And when we sin, the solution is not to deny the need for confession, but to obey: “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). That is how fellowship is restored according to the Bible.

 

[ProDeo]

Only 6 votes.

At least there is agreement.

 

[marks]

You’re missing the distinction Scripture makes between relationship and fellowship.

No, you are not hearing what I'm saying.

Much love!

 

[bdavidc]

No, you are not hearing what I'm saying.

Much love!

So, what am I not hearing?

 

[marks]

So, what am I not hearing?

Intimacy with God is based on the reconciliation bought by Jesus Christ. Being reconciled means being restored to relationship. Personally I've come to conclude a great many people turn a blind eye to sin in their lives. It may be they've not grown sufficiently to see it. It may be that they find it's presence too painful to contemplate. It may be other reasons.

I've come to see sin a little differently than some others, I think. I no longer really look at the specifics of some behavior or thought or word, rather, where did it originate? If it comes from flesh it's sin, and if it comes from Spirit it's not. Or another way to say it, all that is not of faith is sin. Or, the good you know to do, if you don't do it, that is sin.

How may of you really believe that? All - everything - that does not come from our trust in Jesus is sin. Do you realize that?

Now, before someone objects, no, I'm not saying the Spirit leads one to steal (or whatever). If you are stealing, use some discernment, it's not from the Spirit.

We are either walking according to the flesh, and whatever we are doing in that case is sin, because it's what the flesh wants, or we are walking in the Spirit, and, while we may even do the exact same things, it's not sin, because it's from the Spirit.

A simple example, you give $20 to a homeless man. Sin? Or Righteousness? Did you do it so you could show the others around how generous you are? Such a display of pride is from the flesh. Or did you do it because you could see the man is in immediate need, and you have the money in your pocket, and you feel compassion for him, so you give it to him?

Someone who goes on and on about how you have to keep the Law, how you cannot be "living in sin", and all the while they are trampling others in their pride and ego, that's not from the Spirit, and is sin. And they themselves are living in that sin, all the while proclaiming how they are right and righteous. Personally I find such displays of pride and ignorance to be nauseating. At any given time there are examples of this in the various threads.

Obviously my fellowship with God takes on a different tone when I'm in trouble. But seriously I ask you, when you are in trouble with sin, with a lack of self-control, don't you need God all the more in that time? Do you truly think He abandons you to deal with it yourself? Does He just leave you alone in the dark?

Oh yes, we are still reconciled, but our Father won't have anything to do with us when we are wrong? I don't believe that for a moment, and that's not how my life has been.

I've found my loving Heavenly Father in the deepest pits that I've dug for myself.

Jesus said may times, According to your faith . . .

Do you not expect that God will be sharing your life with you when you've sinned?

1 John 3:20-21 KJV
20) For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21) Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

What does God know? He knows all things, what does He know that is pertinent here?

Do you condemn yourself because of your sin? God knows that you are not condemned, because Jesus died for you, and you are now in Him, and there is therefore no condemnation. He knows that. The problem is, we don't always know that.

And then we think we have to "clean up" so we can get back into His "good graces". You cannot clean yourself up enough to suit God. It has to be in Jesus. And you cannot add to what Jesus has done. That's just the way it is. Grace, or nothing.

There simply is no break in my fellowship with God because it's not there because of me, it's because of Jesus, and He never changes, but remains my High Priest, my forever Intercessor. Tell me . . . when do we need an intercessor? Is it when we are good, nothing wrong? Or when we've done what would ordinarly break our fellowship with Him, except that Christ intercede?

Isaiah 66:1-2 KJV
1) Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2) For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

I suggest to meditate on this passage, to dwell over every single word the prophet wrote:

Isaiah 57:15-19 KJV
15) For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
16) For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.
17) For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.
18) I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners.
19) I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.

If God were to content right now with all my sin it would destroy me.

Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, and I will heal him. One of those great and precious promises.

Much love!

 

[bdavidc]

Intimacy with God is based on the reconciliation bought by Jesus Christ. Being reconciled means being restored to relationship. Personally I've come to conclude a great many people turn a blind eye to sin in their lives. It may be they've not grown sufficiently to see it. It may be that they find it's presence too painful to contemplate. It may be other reasons.

I've come to see sin a little differently than some others, I think. I no longer really look at the specifics of some behavior or thought or word, rather, where did it originate? If it comes from flesh it's sin, and if it comes from Spirit it's not. Or another way to say it, all that is not of faith is sin. Or, the good you know to do, if you don't do it, that is sin.

How may of you really believe that? All - everything - that does not come from our trust in Jesus is sin. Do you realize that?

Now, before someone objects, no, I'm not saying the Spirit leads one to steal (or whatever). If you are stealing, use some discernment, it's not from the Spirit.

We are either walking according to the flesh, and whatever we are doing in that case is sin, because it's what the flesh wants, or we are walking in the Spirit, and, while we may even do the exact same things, it's not sin, because it's from the Spirit.

A simple example, you give $20 to a homeless man. Sin? Or Righteousness? Did you do it so you could show the others around how generous you are? Such a display of pride is from the flesh. Or did you do it because you could see the man is in immediate need, and you have the money in your pocket, and you feel compassion for him, so you give it to him?

Someone who goes on and on about how you have to keep the Law, how you cannot be "living in sin", and all the while they are trampling others in their pride and ego, that's not from the Spirit, and is sin. And they themselves are living in that sin, all the while proclaiming how they are right and righteous. Personally I find such displays of pride and ignorance to be nauseating. At any given time there are examples of this in the various threads.

Obviously my fellowship with God takes on a different tone when I'm in trouble. But seriously I ask you, when you are in trouble with sin, with a lack of self-control, don't you need God all the more in that time? Do you truly think He abandons you to deal with it yourself? Does He just leave you alone in the dark?

Oh yes, we are still reconciled, but our Father won't have anything to do with us when we are wrong? I don't believe that for a moment, and that's not how my life has been.

I've found my loving Heavenly Father in the deepest pits that I've dug for myself.

Jesus said may times, According to your faith . . .

Do you not expect that God will be sharing your life with you when you've sinned?

1 John 3:20-21 KJV
20) For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21) Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

What does God know? He knows all things, what does He know that is pertinent here?

Do you condemn yourself because of your sin? God knows that you are not condemned, because Jesus died for you, and you are now in Him, and there is therefore no condemnation. He knows that. The problem is, we don't always know that.

And then we think we have to "clean up" so we can get back into His "good graces". You cannot clean yourself up enough to suit God. It has to be in Jesus. And you cannot add to what Jesus has done. That's just the way it is. Grace, or nothing.

There simply is no break in my fellowship with God because it's not there because of me, it's because of Jesus, and He never changes, but remains my High Priest, my forever Intercessor. Tell me . . . when do we need an intercessor? Is it when we are good, nothing wrong? Or when we've done what would ordinarly break our fellowship with Him, except that Christ intercede?

Isaiah 66:1-2 KJV
1) Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2) For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

I suggest to meditate on this passage, to dwell over every single word the prophet wrote:

Isaiah 57:15-19 KJV
15) For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
16) For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.
17) For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.
18) I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners.
19) I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.

If God were to content right now with all my sin it would destroy me.

Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, and I will heal him. One of those great and precious promises.

Much love!

No, it is not because I am not hearing you, it is because you are not saying what the bible teaches and there for I don't believe it.

What you wrote overlooks a plain truth of Scripture. The Bible does not teach that fellowship with God is never broken by sin. In fact, it says the exact opposite. 1 John 1: 6 says, “If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.” Psalm 66:18 says, “If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me.” Isaiah 59:2 says, “Your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.” Sin does not undo the salvation of a believer but it does break fellowship until it is confessed. David himself said, “When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long. For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me” (Psalm 32:3–4). It was only after he confessed that he found restoration: “I acknowledged my sin unto thee… and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin” (Psalm 32:5). To say there is no break in fellowship at all is to deny these clear words. Yes, Christ is our Advocate when we sin (1 John 2: 1), but that very fact shows sin does matter and must be taken seriously. Grace is not a license to ignore sin or to claim fellowship is unaffected by it. The Word of God is plain: fellowship with God depends on walking in the light and when we walk in darkness that fellowship is broken until we humble ourselves and confess.

The Bible is clear that we can’t clean ourselves up to earn God’s acceptance. He alone is our “justification” (Rom. 3:26). We are saved by grace through faith in Christ alone, not by works (Eph. 2:8–9). But Scripture also makes clear that sin impacts our fellowship with God. You wrote that there is “no break” in fellowship, but 1 John 1: 6 says, “If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.” Fellowship is not maintained apart from our walk. It is contingent on walking in the light (1 John 1:7).

Yes, Christ is our High Priest and Intercessor (Heb. 7:25, 1 John 2:1). But He intercedes precisely because sin breaks fellowship with God. David’s psalm (Ps. 32: 3–5) is full of fellowship interrupted by his sin and then restored when he confessed. Fellowship restored, not uninterrupted. Isaiah 59: 2 also says, “your iniquities have separated between you and your God.” Christ’s intercession restores us when sin would cut us off from fellowship, but that does not mean fellowship is never hindered. It means He makes the way for fellowship restored when we confess and forsake sin (1 John 1:9).

So while grace means you cannot earn God’s acceptance, grace also teaches us to deny ungodliness (Titus 2:11–12). The Bible does not allow for the conclusion that sin leaves fellowship untouched. Rather, it points us to continual confession, dependence, and walking in the light.

 

[marks]

David himself said, “When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long. For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me” (Psalm 32:3–4). It was only after he confessed that he found restoration: “I acknowledged my sin unto thee… and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin” (Psalm 32:5). To say there is no break in fellowship at all is to deny these clear words.

Do you place yourself under the Mosaic Law as was David?

When you commit a sin, is it forgiven already by Christ's death, and your acceptance of His reconciliation? Or do you need to obtain new forgiveness?

Are you aware of every sin you commit? Do you confess with repentance every sin you commit? I'm telling you, brother, it's grace or nothing, because we can never live up to what would be required.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes, Christ is our High Priest and Intercessor (Heb. 7:25, 1 John 2:1). But He intercedes precisely because sin breaks fellowship with God.

What do you imagine His intercession to be?

I know, Father, Mark has sinned, so you have turned your back on him. One day soon I hope he will confess his sin, and then I will ask you to turn back to him.

Realize what this means. Sin separates us from God, so we are dead. Dead. Dead. Separated from God by sin. Jesus reconciled us back to God, so we can be alive. Not alive in faith today, and dead in sin tomorrow, and alive in faith the next day.

I think it's vitally important to not minimize sin, to take it as anything less than it is, sin kills! Unless you are in Christ.

I truly hope for you to know Him as I do!

Have you never heard God speak into your heart even in the midst of fleshiness?

. . . for He has said, I will never leave you nor forsake you. Do you not believe this?

Much love!

 

[bdavidc]

Do you place yourself under the Mosaic Law as was David?

When you commit a sin, is it forgiven already by Christ's death, and your acceptance of His reconciliation? Or do you need to obtain new forgiveness?

Are you aware of every sin you commit? Do you confess with repentance every sin you commit? I'm telling you, brother, it's grace or nothing, because we can never live up to what would be required.

Much love!

The Bible never contrasts grace with repentance or confession. Grace makes confession possible because the blood of Jesus has already paid the price. John says, “And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous” (1 John 2:1). His sacrifice was once for all (Hebrews 10:12), so sin cannot undo salvation. But Scripture is clear that God calls His children to walk in the light, to forsake sin, and to confess when they fall. Paul said plainly, “Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid” (Romans 6:1–2). Grace teaches us to deny ungodliness (Titus 2:11–12), not excuse it.

So the answer is not “law or grace,” it is grace that leads us to walk in holiness and confession when we sin. Christ’s death secured eternal forgiveness, but daily fellowship with the Father requires repentance and honesty before Him. That is the balance Scripture gives, and ignoring either side distorts the truth.

 

[bdavidc]

What do you imagine His intercession to be?

I know, Father, Mark has sinned, so you have turned your back on him. One day soon I hope he will confess his sin, and then I will ask you to turn back to him.

Realize what this means. Sin separates us from God, so we are dead. Dead. Dead. Separated from God by sin. Jesus reconciled us back to God, so we can be alive. Not alive in faith today, and dead in sin tomorrow, and alive in faith the next day.

I think it's vitally important to not minimize sin, to take it as anything less than it is, sin kills! Unless you are in Christ.

I truly hope for you to know Him as I do!

Have you never heard God speak into your heart even in the midst of fleshiness?

. . . for He has said, I will never leave you nor forsake you. Do you not believe this?

Much love!

Scripture is very clear that sin is serious, yes sin kills. But there is also a distinction in the Bible between eternal reconciliation we have in Christ and the fellowship we walk in daily. Isaiah 59: 2 says, “your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you,” that David himself experienced in Psalm 32 until he confessed. That was not the loss of salvation but the breaking of communion. In the New Testament John writes to believers, not unbelievers, “If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth” (1 John 1:6). He then gives the remedy in verse 9: “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” That’s not about regaining salvation, it’s about restored fellowship.

Yes Christ’s intercession is perfect, and He will never leave or forsake His own (Hebrews 13:5). But His role as Advocate in 1 John 2: 1 shows that when believers sin, He pleads His finished sacrifice before the Father. The fact that He intercedes does not mean sin is harmless, it means His blood is sufficient. Paul warned Christians in Ephesians 4: 30 not to grieve the Holy Spirit, which proves sin affects our closeness to God even though we remain His children. Grace never minimizes sin; grace makes forgiveness possible when we repent and confess. Jesus reconciled us once for all at the cross, but Scripture still commands us to walk in the light, deal with sin honestly and keep fellowship with God clear. That is what the whole counsel of God’s Word teaches.

 

[marks]

Paul warned Christians in Ephesians 4: 30 not to grieve the Holy Spirit, which proves sin affects our closeness to God even though we remain His children.

Do you know what it means to grieve the Holy Spirit? It means to make Him very very sad over us. It does not mean God turns His back on us. It doesn't mean He shuts us out. It means we make Him Very Sad. Grieving.

Grace teaches us to deny ungodliness (Titus 2:11–12), not excuse it.

You can take that somewhere else. That has no part in my conversation with you. Nor have I ever said sin was harmless! I hope you can do better than this!

Much love!

 

[marks]

But there is also a distinction in the Bible between eternal reconciliation we have in Christ and the fellowship we walk in daily.

Maybe assert this without using the Law. We are not in that covenant.

It's the reconciliation that we have in Christ that we have fellowship with Him. I hope one day you can come to understand the truth about sin, and the truth about grace. That you may know His love, the truth about His love.

Nothing - nothing - can ever separate me from God's love, and I rejoice in that! My loving Father does not cast me aside because I'm not there yet.

It's not that we are reconciled to God so that we can live an on again off again kind of life, He with me, now He's not, Now He is, Now He's not. No, His is always with me, and not with His back turned to me. He's my Father, I'm His son, and we spend the day together. Even if I'm still a mess.

And I still have to wonder how it is that you think you confess and repent of every sin you commit. I don't think I've ever known anyone who is so self aware! I think I may be as self aware as any are, yet I've continued to grow in my understanding of what is spirit and what is flesh. Flesh is very insidious you know, and it has the hometown advantage.

And I don't think I currently understand all there is to know about sin and flesh, and I fully expect that I will continue to grow in this regard. Which is to say, I feel certain that there are sins I commit now that I am either unaware of, or put from my mind as quickly as it happens.

Much love!

 

[Pierac]

Stop trying to change the subject. This is not about which English translation is “better,” it’s about the truth of God’s Word. You are twisting Scripture to fit your false teaching, and in doing so you are lying about what God clearly said. The Bible does not reduce salvation to a temporary 1,000-year reign. Jesus said, “Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish” (Luke 13:3). The Greek word metanoeō means to turn, to change your mind and direction, not to stay in sin and argue about translations. Without repentance and faith, you perish. That is eternal judgment, not missing out on a reward.

Acts 13: 48 does not say “appointed to a millennium,” it says, “as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.” The Greek word tassō means appointed, set in place. Eternal life, not temporary. Romans 8:29–30 is just as clear: those God foreknew, He predestined, called, justified, and glorified. Glorification (doxazō) is eternal glory with Christ, not a 1,000-year phase.

You quote 1 Timothy 2:4 about God’s will for all to be saved, but you ignore the rest of Scripture. The Greek word thelō means to will or to desire. God’s will is perfect, but man resists. Jesus said, “Ye will not (thelō) come to me, that ye might have life” (John 5:40). That’s man’s rebellion, not God’s failure. To claim that Jesus failed because most reject Him is blasphemy. The Bible says, “Our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased” (Psalm 115:3). Christ is no failure. The failure is in unbelieving sinners who resist the truth.

Ephesians 2:8–9 makes it unshakable: “For by grace are ye saved (sōzō—delivered, made whole) through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.” That is eternal salvation, secured by God, not a temporary reign.

Stop twisting Scripture. You are not teaching the gospel, you are perverting it. Paul said, “If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed” (Galatians 1:9). Repent of your lies, or you will face God’s wrath.

Your teaching is rooted in universalism and the age-old lie that God’s Word can be bent to fit human reasoning. It’s the same serpent’s tactic, “Yea, hath God said?”, to twist God’s truth, trying to make Him look like a failure, and give sinners a false hope that they can reject Christ and still be fine in the end.

But I did not teach anything??? I just quoted scripture.... Seems it's scripture that is going against your traditions of men.... not me!!!

 

[bdavidc]

Do you know what it means to grieve the Holy Spirit? It means to make Him very very sad over us. It does not mean God turns His back on us. It doesn't mean He shuts us out. It means we make Him Very Sad. Grieving.


You can take that somewhere else. That has no part in my conversation with you. Nor have I ever said sin was harmless! I hope you can do better than this!

Much love!

Scripture never simplifies grieving the Holy Spirit to just making Him sad. Ephesians 4: 30 is sandwiched between direct commands to put away lying, anger, corrupt words, bitterness, and all forms of sin (Ephesians 4:25–31). The Greek word (lupeō) means to cause to sorrow, distress, or offense not simply sadness. Isaiah 63: 10 should communicate the weight: “But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.” That is not God simply being sad, it is Him holily responding to rebellion. Grieving the Spirit is resisting His sanctifying work, offending His presence, and hindering fellowship with God. Paul told us not to do the opposite for that reason, “Quench not the Spirit” (1 Thessalonians 5:19). Grace cannot be shoved aside in this conversation because Titus 2: 11–12 shows us the very reason God gives grace is to teach us to deny ungodliness and to live righteously in this world. If sin is made light of, or the weight of grieving the Spirit is lightened, then the warning of Scripture is being silenced.

When you tell me to “take that somewhere else” regarding Titus 2: 11–12, you are shoving aside the very Scripture that defines how grace works. You did not say sin was harmless, but by brushing off what the Word of God says about grace teaching us to deny ungodliness, you are treating the warning lightly. The Bible never separates the Spirit’s grief from holiness, nor does it separate grace from godliness. Paul yoked them together because both truths cut sin straight in half. “The grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly” (Titus 2:11–12). To reject that point is to reject Scripture, and that is the very issue. Sin is not harmless, and the Spirit is not merely saddened, He is grieved and offended by disobedience. That is why we must let the Word speak fully, even when it cuts against what we want to hear.

 

[bdavidc]

Maybe assert this without using the Law. We are not in that covenant.

It's the reconciliation that we have in Christ that we have fellowship with Him. I hope one day you can come to understand the truth about sin, and the truth about grace. That you may know His love, the truth about His love.

Nothing - nothing - can ever separate me from God's love, and I rejoice in that! My loving Father does not cast me aside because I'm not there yet.

It's not that we are reconciled to God so that we can live an on again off again kind of life, He with me, now He's not, Now He is, Now He's not. No, His is always with me, and not with His back turned to me. He's my Father, I'm His son, and we spend the day together. Even if I'm still a mess.

And I still have to wonder how it is that you think you confess and repent of every sin you commit. I don't think I've ever known anyone who is so self aware! I think I may be as self aware as any are, yet I've continued to grow in my understanding of what is spirit and what is flesh. Flesh is very insidious you know, and it has the hometown advantage.

And I don't think I currently understand all there is to know about sin and flesh, and I fully expect that I will continue to grow in this regard. Which is to say, I feel certain that there are sins I commit now that I am either unaware of, or put from my mind as quickly as it happens.

Much love!

Yes, nothing can separate us from God’s love. But sin still breaks our fellowship with Him. The Bible says, “If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me” (Psalm 66:18). That’s not losing salvation, that’s losing closeness. John wrote to believers, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us” (1 John 1:9). Why would we need to confess if sin didn’t matter? Grace is not a pass to stay messy, grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and live holy (Titus 2:11–12). God doesn’t stop being your Father, but if you keep sinning and shrugging it off, don’t expect sweet fellowship with Him.

 

[bdavidc]

But I did not teach anything??? I just quoted scripture.... Seems it's scripture that is going against your traditions of men.... not me!!!

Don’t “hide behind ‘I just quoted Scripture.’” Satan quoted Scripture in Matthew 4: 6 but he twisted it out of context to advance a lie. That’s exactly what you’re doing. The problem is not the Bible, it’s the way you’re twisting it to deny what it plainly says. “He that believeth on me hath everlasting life” (John 6:47). As many as were ordained to eternal life believed (Acts 13:48). If you follow through God’s work from foreknowledge to glorification (Romans 8: 29–30), you’ll see none of that is temporary. Ephesians 2: 8–9 makes salvation eternal and by grace, not a 1,000-year probation.

So no, it’s not Scripture versus “traditions of men.” It’s you versus Scripture itself. Stop twisting God’s Word to fit your man-made system, because Paul’s warning still stands: “If any man preach any other gospel… let him be accursed” (Galatians 1:9).

 

[marks]

Grace cannot be shoved aside in this conversation

If sin is made light of, or the weight of grieving the Spirit is lightened, then the warning of Scripture is being silenced.

you are shoving aside the very Scripture that defines how grace works.

You did not say sin was harmless, but by brushing off what the Word of God says about grace teaching us to deny ungodliness, you are treating the warning lightly.

To reject that point is to reject Scripture,

even when it cuts against what we want to hear

Grace is not a pass to stay messy

keep sinning and shrugging it off,

I'm going to suggest you reread my posts, rather than continuing this back and forth.

And if you have a question to ask me, ask. Otherwise, I'm not interested in your presumptions about me. You can save them for yourself. In your zeal to defend your point you sin against others. None of this describes me, but you would make it so.

There is no fruitfulness in such speech. Perhaps if you actually knew me, and had some valid understanding, this would be different, but you are reading my words, associating that with some thought in your mind about what it must mean about me, and look at what you come up with!

This is not fruitful, and not good for you. Slander is more about the speaker than the hearer, and you've posted yours publically. And now you must be out of fellowship with God, right? Or will you minimize this?

I hope you give this some serious thought.

Much love!