No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[brightfame52]

This one verse blows this calvinistic garbage out the door.

Rv 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

No it doesnt, since the dead in sin have no will, desire for God, and no spiritual thirst.

 

[shepherdsword]

No it doesnt, since the dead in sin have no will, desire for God, and no spiritual thirst.

That's your opinion based on the calvinistic lenses you see the scriptures through.

 

[brightfame52]

That's your opinion based on the calvinistic lenses you see the scriptures through.

Based on scripture, Rom 3:11 says this about man dead under sin

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

That word seeketh is the greek word ἐκζητέω:

1. to seek out, search for
2. to seek out, i.e. investigate, scrutinise
3. to seek out for one's self, beg, crave
4. to demand back, require

That word crave is strong and denotes, desire, wish want, thirst !

So that scripture isnt about the natural man under the power of sin. Sorry charlie

 

[shepherdsword]

Based on scripture, Rom 3:11 says this about man dead under sin

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

That word seeketh is the greek word ἐκζητέω:

1. to seek out, search for
2. to seek out, i.e. investigate, scrutinise
3. to seek out for one's self, beg, crave
4. to demand back, require

That word crave is strong and denotes, desire, wish want, thirst !

So that scripture isnt about the natural man under the power of sin. Sorry charlie

It's a synecdoche as pertains to the law. The verse before it says "There is none righteous, no, not one" and later "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

yet we see this:

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Lk 1:5-6 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

By the same token a man convicted of sin can repent and ask for forgiveness or he can choose to ignore conviction. He has freedom of choice.

 

[brightfame52]

It's a synecdoche as pertains to the law. The verse before it says "There is none righteous, no, not one" and later "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

yet we see this:

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Lk 1:5-6 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

By the same token a man convicted of sin can repent and ask for forgiveness or he can choose to ignore conviction. He has freedom of choice.

If one does fear God, thats evidence they are saved. Man naturally doesnt seek God nor fear God Rom 3:11,18

 

[shepherdsword]

If one does fear God, thats evidence they are saved. Man naturally doesnt seek God nor fear God Rom 3:11,18

Was Job, Zacharias and Elizabeth saved? Don't you have to be born again? Were they born again?

 

[Iina]

Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man can come here means no man has the ability to come to Christ. That cancels out the myth that man has a freewill,

It also means that no man has the ability to believe on Christ for Salvation. Because Christ equates believing on Him with coming to Him. Jn 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


What about those Jesus says to them Jn 5:40

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Thats answered in Jn 6:44 they simply will not come because they cannot come unless the Power of God draws them and makes them willing

Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

If and when one comes to believe on Christ willingly, the credit goes to Gods Power !

This is what I was always taught. I didn't even know there were other theological positions until I was in my teens.

 

[brightfame52]

No man can come to Christ naturally because by nature as Paul writes concerning the gentiles in Eph 2 they are helpless and without hope in themselves pertaining to Salvation Eph 2:12

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Man naturally, is without spiritual strength Rom 5:6

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. We were by nature powerless to help ourselves, in a dead lost spiritual state ! 10

 

[brightfame52]

Was Job, Zacharias and Elizabeth saved? Don't you have to be born again? Were they born again?

Yes they were saved/born again, I just stated this.

 

[nedsk]

This is what I was always taught. I didn't even know there were other theological positions until I was in my teens.

That's a sad thing.

 

[Iina]

That's a sad thing.

I still agree with this. I am not a 'freewiller'.

 

[nedsk]

I still agree with this. I am not a 'freewiller'.

That's a shame. If we don't have free will then we can't be with Jesus out of love. Jesus is nothing but love but love, by definition, requires a free act of the will otherwise it's done out of fear, coersion or obligation. Jesus went to the cross out of love. He had to choose it.(Gethsemane) If he didn't then it wasn't out of love for us.

 

[shepherdsword]

Yes they were saved/born again, I just stated this.

How were they born again?

 

[brightfame52]

How were they born again?

By the Holy Ghost

 

[shepherdsword]

By the Holy Ghost

How could that happen before this?

Jn 7:3(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

 

[Davy]

Was Job, Zacharias and Elizabeth saved? Don't you have to be born again? Were they born again?

Ever read 1 Peter 3 & 4 about Jesus preaching The Gospel to the "spirits in prison"? 1 Peter 4 says the Gospel was preached to the dead so they could be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Zechariah 9 and Isaiah 42:6-7 is about Jesus' 1st coming and that preaching The Gospel to the dead at His resurrection. Isaiah 42:7 shows Jesus would lead prisoners out of darkness of the prison house (i.e., Satan's prison in the heavenly dimension).

The Old Testament saints knew that Christ would come, and they believed, and David was even given to prophesy about Christ's crucifixion (Ps.22), as also did Isaiah (Isa.53). They just didn't get to live to the time when Jesus' 1st coming happened. And per Galatians 3 and Romans 4, Apostle Paul showed that The Gospel was preached to Abraham, and he believed, and God counted Abraham's Faith as righteousness. And even with Enoch, the 7th from Adam, who was caught up, prophesied of Christ's future 2nd coming with ten thousands of His saints per the Book of Jude, so Enoch also must have known The Gospel.

 

[brightfame52]

How could that happen before this?

Jn 7:3(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Easily that verse says nothing about regeneration, people were born of God in John 1:12 and 13

 

[shepherdsword]

Easily that verse says nothing about regeneration, people were born of God in John 1:12 and 13

Let's look at those verses

Jn 1:12-13
but as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This is talking about the new birth that happens when people receive Jesus. Job, Zechariahs and Elizabeth were righteous BEFORE the death of Christ yet you claim they were born again.

 

[brightfame52]

Let's look at those verses

Jn 1:12-13
but as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This is talking about the new birth that happens when people receive Jesus. Job, Zechariahs and Elizabeth were righteous BEFORE the death of Christ yet you claim they were born again.

They received him because they had been born of God duh

 

[soberxp]

There is no such thing as free will.

So you think everything is predestined.