Can any of you link or share a good argument against FULL preterism?

[HealthyShape]

So you're looking for an argument huh? OK.

This is a discussion forum. Posting verses to prove my point or to disprove yours is not "looking for an argument, huh?"

When did Apostle Paul write that? before Jesus' death and resurrection, or after? After of course. So that waiting for Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed has to mean for the future even past the time of Apostle Paul!

So? Who told you that Paul meant some event that happened before he wrote this?

Once again, Paul wrote that long after Christ's death and resurrection. It has to be applied for a time even future to Paul's day.

So? You are still repeating this, but you are still unable to explain what you are even trying to say.

Same thing for the rest of your New Testament references that were written AFTER Christ's death and resurrection and point to Jesus' coming at a point future to themselves.

So? You said this like 5 times already. But I have no idea why. Preterism does not mean that the second coming of Jesus happened BEFORE Christ's resurrection or BEFORE Paul wrote his letters.

 

[Davy]

This is a discussion forum. Posting verses to prove my point or to disprove yours is not "looking for an argument, huh?"

When YOU make FALSE CLAIMS that I think Jesus' second coming happens at His resurrection, which is something I NEVER SAID, then Yeah, it means YOU ARE LOOKING FOR AN ARGUMENT, AND NOT A CIVIL DEBATE.

You said to me in your post #99:

"You are making no sense. Again, the second coming of Jesus was not His resurrection. Therefore, what is your point that the verses about His second coming were written after His resurrection? Maybe I cannot read, maybe you cannot WRITE."​

You posted Bible Scripture to TRY and prove as evidence that Jesus' 2nd coming already happened back in His Apostle's days, which of course is false. Then you said the above quote to me.

That doctrine you follow that you revealed is man's false doctrine of Full Preterism. It believes the false idea that Jesus' 2nd coming is meant only spiritually and not literally.

And what I said about many Bible Scriptures that exist about Christ's FUTURE 2ND COMING that were WRITTEN AFTER JESUS' DEATH AND RESURRECTION is not a difficult statement. And you well know it!

BRETHREN IN CHRIST:
Beware of this fellow, he is obviously another that is come here to speak lies against God's written Word.

 

[HealthyShape]

When YOU make FALSE CLAIMS that I think Jesus' second coming happens at His resurrection, which is something I NEVER SAID, then Yeah, it means YOU ARE LOOKING FOR AN ARGUMENT, AND NOT A CIVIL DEBATE.

You said to me in your post #99:

"You are making no sense. Again, the second coming of Jesus was not His resurrection. Therefore, what is your point that the verses about His second coming were written after His resurrection? Maybe I cannot read, maybe you cannot WRITE."​

You posted Bible Scripture to TRY and prove as evidence that Jesus' 2nd coming already happened back in His Apostle's days, which of course is false. Then you said the above quote to me.

That doctrine you follow that you revealed is man's false doctrine of Full Preterism. It believes the false idea that Jesus' 2nd coming is meant only spiritually and not literally.

And what I said about many Bible Scriptures that exist about Christ's FUTURE 2ND COMING that were WRITTEN AFTER JESUS' DEATH AND RESURRECTION is not a difficult statement. And you well know it!

BRETHREN IN CHRIST:
Beware of this fellow, he is obviously another that is come here to speak lies against God's written Word.

1. Learn to read.

2. Learn how to communicate and how to reason properly.

I noticed you have a problem with it also in other threads and with quite a few other people.

 

[Bladerunner]

Right. Full preterism is a joke and can't be taken seriously whatsoever.

I agree....it is a part Amillenniallism. they need the Jew to not be a part of GOD's plan.

 

[pandaflower]

As an FYI for possible new Christians reading this thread.

Preterism is a Christian belief that interprets many biblical prophecies, particularly those in the Book of Revelation and the Olivet Discourse, as events that have already been fulfilled in history, primarily by AD 70 with the destruction of Jerusalem. There are two main types: full preterism, which claims all prophecies have been fulfilled, and partial preterism, which holds that most have been fulfilled but some remain for the future. Wikipedia The Gospel Coalition

 

[pandaflower]

I'd think it impossible to sustain the notion of full preterism.

 

[Bladerunner]

As an FYI for possible new Christians reading this thread.

Preterism is a Christian belief that interprets many biblical prophecies, particularly those in the Book of Revelation and the Olivet Discourse, as events that have already been fulfilled in history, primarily by AD 70 with the destruction of Jerusalem. There are two main types: full preterism, which claims all prophecies have been fulfilled, and partial preterism, which holds that most have been fulfilled but some remain for the future. Wikipedia The Gospel Coalition

Preterism (full) believes that the Jews have lost all their promises God made to them because they crucified Him. The Church that Jesus built and now is on earth is for the Gentiles only. there are variations, (Partial Preterism), etc. but they are still heresies.

 

[Bladerunner]

I'd think it impossible to sustain the notion of full preterism.

got a good head on your shoulders. The prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 has only partially been fulfilled with the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.The 70th week has yet to come...

 

[HealthyShape]

Preterism (full) believes that the Jews have lost all their promises God made to them because they crucified Him. The Church that Jesus built and now is on earth is for the Gentiles only. there are variations, (Partial Preterism), etc. but they are still heresies.

Church is both for Jews and Gentiles and preterism does not say otherwise. Jews were even invited to the church prominently and as the first. Church is so ethnically nondiscriminatory that Paul could even say "there is no longer Jew or Gentile".

Preterism is a view about eschatology - when were the OT and NT prophecies fulfilled (and partially also "how"). I have no idea where do people in this thread get their other random claims and definitions from.

 

[Iina]

The full preterism, it cannot be correct from Christian perspective because it makes the Scripture to say things that are not there. When we read the Bible, we must take it as it says, not make it into symbols when it speaks clearly about real things. The Apostle Paul, he writes in First Corinthians about how our bodies will be changed, and in Thessalonians about how Christ will come down from heaven with loud command - these are not metaphors about Jerusalem's destruction in year 70, but real events that will happen in future.

Our Augsburg Confession, which many churches accept, it says clearly that Christ will return to judge living and dead people. If everything already happened in 70 AD like full preterists claim, then why we still wait for this judgment? This makes no sense. Also, if all prophecies are finished, then what is Christ doing now? Christian teaching says He continues His work as our priest and advocate, but full preterism makes this meaningless.

But most important problem is this: people still die. Paul writes that death is the last enemy to be destroyed, so if everything was completed in 70 AD, why death continues? This shows that resurrection and final victory over death, these things are still coming in future. When we baptize people, we connect them to hope of resurrection - not some spiritual thing that already happened, but real resurrection of body that waits for us. Full preterism takes away this hope and comfort, which is against everything faith teaches about God's promises to His people.

 

[HealthyShape]

When we read the Bible, we must take it as it says

This is interesting, because non-preterists seem to ignore tons of verses like "this is the last hour" or "this generation will not pass away until..." and try to postulate that these verses mean something different from what they say. For example, I came to preterism because I was fed up with futurists still changing the verses, adding complex ideas to them, ignoring the first century context and speculating endlessly.

not make it into symbols when it speaks clearly about real things.

1. spiritual is real. Is love real? But you cannot touch it. Or is the kingdom of God real? But you cannot see it directly as some object.

2. "clearly" is quite subjective, right? Or, do you have an objective standard which you apply to all verses, to determine whether it is literal or symbolic, physical or spiritual?

The Apostle Paul, he writes in First Corinthians about how our bodies will be changed

He was talking to Corinthians, i.e. he said nothing about mine or your body. You said we must take verses as they say. Why do you include us into the context?

and in Thessalonians about how Christ will come down from heaven with loud command - these are not metaphors about Jerusalem's destruction in year 70, but real events that will happen in future.

Who says it is a metaphor? Preterists just say it happened in 70 AD, not that it was a metaphor.

Our Augsburg Confession, which many churches accept...

The Lutheran confessions were unknown to the New Testament authors.

But most important problem is this: people still die. Paul writes that death is the last enemy to be destroyed, so if everything was completed in 70 AD, why death continues?

Where did Paul say that physical death will not exist after the second coming? It seems to me that many Christians have some theological systems in their heads and misidentify them as "the Bible" or as "the Christian perspective".

 

[grafted branch]

Preterism (full) believes that the Jews have lost all their promises God made to them because they crucified Him. The Church that Jesus built and now is on earth is for the Gentiles only. there are variations, (Partial Preterism), etc. but they are still heresies.

What are you talking about? Do you somehow see verses such as Ezekiel 37:25-26 referring to Jews, or the nation of Israel only and not all believers?

I would say these types of verses can only be talking about the one true Israel of God, a spiritual Israel, based on faith, not a physical Israel.

Ezekiel 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

 

[PinSeeker]

...Amillenniallism. they need the Jew to not be a part of GOD's plan.

I subscribe to amillennialism, Bladerunner, and what you say here regarding amillennialism is not true at all. The Jew is absolutely "a part of God's plan," as you put it... and not just a part, but collectively; Israel is the collective term, so collectively all Jews are the object of God's plan. As I have said many times in many threads here, the real disagreement is regarding just who is a Jew and thus who, collectively, makes up God's Israel. And that is very clear from Paul's words in Romans and Ephesians:

• "For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God." (Romans 2:28-29).
• "For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring... because of Him Who calls... even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles..." (Romans 9).
• "...a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved" (Romans 11:25-26).
• "Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called 'the uncircumcision' by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands ~ remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in His flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And He came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through Him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit" (Ephesians 2:11-22).

Now, regarding preterists, they will agree with amillennialists (and vice versa) concerning the above passages regarding who God's Israel (His household) is, and who the true Jew of God is. So will postmillennialists, by the way; it is only premillennialists who get this wrong, and really just a subset of premillennialists ~ dispensational, as opposed to historic, premillennialists. Historic premillennialists do not see so sharp a distinction between Israel and the church as dispensationalists do, but instead view believers of all ages as part of one group, now revealed as the body of Christ, and they are right about that. Dispensational premillennialists are the... "outliers"... <smile>

But again, your assertion that amillennialism "needs Jews not to be a part of God's plan" is a complete misunderstanding and misrepresentation of amillennialism... completely untrue. And... I hope you will recognize that I'm not accusing you of lying. But wrong about... well, a couple of things (Jews and amillennialists)... <smile> ...you are. And you're not alone. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Can any of you link or share a good argument against FULL preterism?

Without scripture twisting and ignoring scriptures they don't like.... uh, no they cannot because preterism is false doctrine as we will see in the not too distant future.

The trap set by the devil to try and deceive people in to believing all the end times stuff has already taken place is.... when the anti-christ arrives on the scene these preterist people will have no problem taking the mark of the beast and will be dammed to hell according to Jesus.

 

[HealthyShape]

Without scripture twisting and ignoring scriptures they don't like.... uh, no they cannot because preterism is false doctrine as we will see in the not too distant future.

The trap set by the devil to try and deceive people in to believing all the end times stuff has already taken place is.... when the anti-christ arrives on the scene these preterist people will have no problem taking the mark of the beast and will be dammed to hell according to Jesus.

No argumentation, no reasoning, no examples, nothing. Vague predictions "in the not so distant future", vague enough to not risk anything. And a bit of fear mongering as a spicy ending.

Classic.

 

[grafted branch]

trap set by the devil to try and deceive people in to believing all the end times stuff has already taken place is.... when the anti-christ arrives on the scene these preterist people will have no problem taking the mark of the beast and will be dammed to hell according to Jesus.

Or, the preterist are right and when someone comes along claiming he is the antichrist and wants to stamp people with 666, then sets up some medical clinics where a person can declare their faith, receive general anesthesia and get beheaded, people like you will actually consider that to be a viable option, because they think that means they will live with Christ for the millennium.

 

[PinSeeker]

Without scripture twisting and ignoring scriptures they don't like.... uh, no they cannot because preterism is false doctrine as we will see in the not too distant future.

The trap set by the devil to try and deceive people in to believing all the end times stuff has already taken place is.... when the anti-christ arrives on the scene these preterist people will have no problem taking the mark of the beast and will be dammed to hell according to Jesus.

For the most part I agree with you regarding preterism, Dan, that they are wrong about Jesus's return and the fulfillment of the prophecies, but preterists are believers in Jesus Christ. Respectfully, I don't think Satan cares about the different views regarding the end times (eschatology) but rather deceiving folks into not believing the Gospel or in Jesus Christ as Savior. He want's to keep them believing that the Gospel is foolishness rather than "the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes," as Paul says in Romans 1. The real deception of Satan for unbelievers is really the same now as it always was, all the way back to Eden and Satan's deception of Eve in Genesis 3:1: "Did God actually say...?"

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Davy]

The full preterism, it cannot be correct from Christian perspective because it makes the Scripture to say things that are not there. When we read the Bible, we must take it as it says, not make it into symbols when it speaks clearly about real things. The Apostle Paul, he writes in First Corinthians about how our bodies will be changed, and in Thessalonians about how Christ will come down from heaven with loud command - these are not metaphors about Jerusalem's destruction in year 70, but real events that will happen in future.

Our Augsburg Confession, which many churches accept, it says clearly that Christ will return to judge living and dead people. If everything already happened in 70 AD like full preterists claim, then why we still wait for this judgment? This makes no sense. Also, if all prophecies are finished, then what is Christ doing now? Christian teaching says He continues His work as our priest and advocate, but full preterism makes this meaningless.

But most important problem is this: people still die. Paul writes that death is the last enemy to be destroyed, so if everything was completed in 70 AD, why death continues? This shows that resurrection and final victory over death, these things are still coming in future. When we baptize people, we connect them to hope of resurrection - not some spiritual thing that already happened, but real resurrection of body that waits for us. Full preterism takes away this hope and comfort, which is against everything faith teaches about God's promises to His people.

That's correct. And any Bible-believing Christian will understand what you say if they truly... read and study their Bible and believe it as written. The problem is that there's heretics here on this Forum, and in every Christian forum I've ever been to.

Titus 3:10-11
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
KJV

 

[Bladerunner]

I subscribe to amillennialism, Bladerunner, and what you say here regarding amillennialism is not true at all. The Jew is absolutely "a part of God's plan," as you put it... and not just a part, but collectively; Israel is the collective term, so collectively all Jews are the object of God's plan. As I have said many times in many threads here, the real disagreement is regarding just who is a Jew and thus who, collectively, makes up God's Israel. And that is very clear from Paul's words in Romans and Ephesians:

• "For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God." (Romans 2:28-29).
• "For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring... because of Him Who calls... even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles..." (Romans 9).
• "...a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved" (Romans 11:25-26).
• "Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called 'the uncircumcision' by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands ~ remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in His flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And He came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through Him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit" (Ephesians 2:11-22).

Now, regarding preterists, they will agree with amillennialists (and vice versa) concerning the above passages regarding who God's Israel (His household) is, and who the true Jew of God is. So will postmillennialists, by the way; it is only premillennialists who get this wrong, and really just a subset of premillennialists ~ dispensational, as opposed to historic, premillennialists. Historic premillennialists do not see so sharp a distinction between Israel and the church as dispensationalists do, but instead view believers of all ages as part of one group, now revealed as the body of Christ, and they are right about that. Dispensational premillennialists are the... "outliers"... <smile>

But again, your assertion that amillennialism "needs Jews not to be a part of God's plan" is a complete misunderstanding and misrepresentation of amillennialism... completely untrue. And... I hope you will recognize that I'm not accusing you of lying. But wrong about... well, a couple of things (Jews and amillennialists)... <smile> ...you are. And you're not alone. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

Unfortunately for you, God has two plans that He has started with Creation..One for Israel one the earthly millennium and the Gentiles who will be in heaven and on earth. Your hoping the millennium has already been completed that way one does not have to be bothered with Daniel's 70th week which an Amillennialist will tell has already been fulfilled.....Good luck.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Same Applies To Reformed Theology's "Partial Preterism" That Teaches Items 1 & 2 Below Were Fulfilled In The 70AD Destruction Of Jerusalem By Roman Armies

The Events Below Are "Future" Unfulfilled

1.) Matthew 24:15 "Daniel's AOD"
2.) Matthew 24:21 "The Great Tribulation"
3.) Matthew 24:29-31 "The Second Coming"

LOL. Go away, little boy. To act as if there is no difference between full preterism and me agreeing with one thing that partial preterists believe while disagreeing with many other things they believe is utter nonsense. You apparently have no interest in being taken seriously.