Free Will

[GodsGrace]

Many people do, actually, and on this forum.

Much love!

And, of course, those that believe that salvation can be forfieted are right !!

 

[GodsGrace]

This commonly held idea that we have "free will", what exactly is "free will"? The freedom to choose whatever you want. Only God has free will.

Our choices are extremely limited by our nature. I cannot choose to flap my arms and fly to the moon. I cannot choose to be Abraham Lincoln. I cannot choose to digest rocks.

I cannot choose to be older or more mature than I am.

Did you choose to be born? No. Can you choose to become unborn? No. There are an unlimited number of things you cannot choose to be or do. Only within the very narrow limits as established by God our Creator. And our re-Creator.

Can you choose to be reborn? No. You can believe and receive Jesus, and if the Father sees it's real, He gives you rebirth. You don't choose it. And neither can you choose to be unreborn. It's not in your nature.

Much love!

We have a nice number of posts already,,,
but no one has provided the definition of free will.

If you mean philosophical free will....then most on here should just withdraw and leave the discussion to philosophers.

If you mean biblical, or theological, free will, then the answer is in one short sentence -
and I DO believe that you're speaking about this type of free will.

Free will is the ability to choose between two moral alternatives....

That's it. Some on here, including YOU, are discussing philosophical free will.
No. We cannot want to fly.

But since we're on a Christian Forum,,,
Yes. God has given us the gift of free will.

We can choose to obey Him or not.
We can choose to sin or not.

We choose to be saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

DANGER Will Robinson! Errr..... does not compute.

No such idea of being "unborn again" exists. That's a funny mockery of God's Word.

Yes sir.
So much scripture goes unaccepted/rejected because of a doctrine invented about 1,500 years AFTER Jesus and the Apostles' teachings.

As if Jesus, Paul and the other writers did not understand what they were saying.

Marks, trying reading about king Saul in the Old Testament after God removed The Holy Spirit from him, and Saul goes on a rampage why God stopped listening to him.

Paul said for each believer to work out their own Salvation with fear and trembling. Doesn't that sound just the opposite of a believer jumping up and down for joy thinking they are already saved? Today we only have God's Promise of being saved according to our Faith.

We can know today that we are saved....
Why?
Because we cannot know for sure that something will happen to us tomorrow that causes us to abandon God.
And if we do,,,it will be of our own free will.

 

[GodsGrace]

This whole argument about free will comes from Protestant Reformation doctrines on predestination by John Calvin in the 16th century. Here is a definition of that idea from Wikipedia...

Stemming from the theology of John Calvin, Reformed theologians teach that sin so affects human nature that they are unable even to exercise faith in Christ by their own will. While people are said to retain free will, in that they willfully sin, they are unable not to sin because of the corruption of their nature due to original sin. Reformed Christians believe that God predestined some people to be saved and others were predestined to eternal damnation.[80] This choice by God to save some is held to be unconditional and not based on any characteristic or action on the part of the person chosen. The Calvinist view is opposed to the Arminian view that God's choice of whom to save is conditional or based on his foreknowledge of who would respond positively to God.[​

What Calvin confused is the difference of what Lord Jesus said that many are called, but few are chosen (Matt.22:14). Apostle Paul in Ephesians 1 and Romans 8 when speaking of those whom God did foreknow, and predestinated, is about His 'chosen' ones that He already owns.

The John 17 prayer that Jesus said before He was delivered up to be crucified showed that His Apostles were already owned beforehand by The Father, and The Father gave them to Jesus. Those represent the 'chosen' elect, predestinated whom God did foreknow.

Then Jesus said He prayed not only for His chosen sent ones, but also for those who would come to believe by His Apostle's word (i.e., their preaching of The Gospel). And then... that BOTH groups together would become one in Jesus and The Father. Thus Lord Jesus also showed the two different groups of believers, called vs. those chosen, in that Chapter.

Calvin confused that, and tried to apply his concept that ONLY those whom God had chosen beforehand, back before the foundation of the world, can be saved. That totally removes any idea of a Free Will Choice as an act by the believer, and it is not the Scripture meaning.

I agree with the above.
Calvin was confused on a lot....
because he chose, by his free will, to believe a manachaen gnostic by the name of Augustine (5th century)
who had some ideas never before believed by the early church.

I'd say that Augustine's belief that man cannot possibly have free will was the catalyst...
or maybe that man is totally depraved...difficult to know which came first. Maybe total depravity.

 

[GodsGrace]

Omnipotence is not the same as free will, these are two different things. Nonetheless, only an omnipotent being has a truly free will,

Really?
So does God have the free will to sin?

otherwise your choices will be limited by your nature.

Some people seem to think that they can in fact choose outside of their nature, for instance, those who say that you can "walk away from your salvation", as if you could choose to become unreborn.

You've just contradicted yourself.

So which is it?
Can God sin or not?
Can a reborn man avoid sin just because he's reborn?
So are you saying that a Christian CANNOT sin??

No, people don't generally argue that they can do the impossible. The issue arises when someone thinks that what is impossible for them, that it's actually possible.

Rebirth is one of those things. They say, "That's right, no one can pluck us from God's hand, be we can ourselves leave." That's an example of choosing outside of your nature. You cannot "choose" to be unreborn. And God says it doesn't happen. All who are His children remain His children. You cannot change that, and God doesn't offer to.

Much love!

Jesus does not agree with you.
Paul does not agree with you.

Are we changing this thread to CAN WE LOSE OUR SALVATION?

Maybe the discussion of free will naturally will bring to that direction...

 

[marks]

And, of course, those that believe that salvation can be forfieted are right !!

How would that actually happen? Let's follow this through, OK?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Because we cannot know for sure that something will happen to us tomorrow that causes us to abandon God.

Compare to . . .

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

It appears that you think you cannot actually know this.

3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

And not being able to know this, well, the passage tells us that knowing this is truth is connected to our purifying ourselves, even as Jesus is pure.

This passage likewise informs us concerning Biblical "hope" being what we believe will happen because we have faith in God, and we believe His Word, here considered to be knowing. We know for a certainty this will happen. Not, I think maybe it could, and I really want it to! Rather, we Know . . .

Here is a choice we have. We can choose to believe this truth, and so live purifying lives. This is choosing within our nature.

Much love!

 

[nedsk]

We have a nice number of posts already,,,
but no one has provided the definition of free will.

If you mean philosophical free will....then most on here should just withdraw and leave the discussion to philosophers.

If you mean biblical, or theological, free will, then the answer is in one short sentence -
and I DO believe that you're speaking about this type of free will.

Free will is the ability to choose between two moral alternatives....

That's it. Some on here, including YOU, are discussing philosophical free will.
No. We cannot want to fly.

But since we're on a Christian Forum,,,
Yes. God has given us the gift of free will.

We can choose to obey Him or not.
We can choose to sin or not.

We choose to be saved.

We can want to fly but that doesn't translate into we can fly. They seem to think unless you can do the impossible then you don't really have free will. It's like saying those who lost their salvation were never really saved in the first place. It's simplistic thinking.

 

[nedsk]

Compare to . . .

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

It appears that you think you cannot actually know this.

3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

And not being able to know this, well, the passage tells us that knowing this is truth is connected to our purifying ourselves, even as Jesus is pure.

This passage likewise informs us concerning Biblical "hope" being what we believe will happen because we have faith in God, and we believe His Word, here considered to be knowing. We know for a certainty this will happen. Not, I think maybe it could, and I really want it to! Rather, we Know . . .

Here is a choice we have. We can choose to believe this truth, and so live purifying lives. This is choosing within our nature.

Much love!

Nothing there says we can't lose our salvation

 

[Davy]

We can want to fly but that doesn't translate into we can fly. They seem to think unless you can do the impossible then you don't really have free will. It's like saying those who lost their salvation were never really saved in the first place. It's simplistic thinking.

It's just what many are taught in today's Churches, mostly influenced by the false OSAS doctrines of men. Since they keep that false OSAS doctrine, then if a believer falls away from Christ, then they simply say, "Well, that person wasn't a real believer anyway, and thus they never were saved," and they quote verses like 1 John 2:19.

Their idea is simply an extension of Calvinist doctrine that only those God causes to believe will be saved, thus removing any idea of one having a free will choice to believe.

Because of their false beliefs on man's OSAS doctrines, it is one of the reasons I keep reminding those in Christ that if one is 'called' only, it means they make their own choice to believe, or not to believe, and that means they can... fall away if they do not remain in the Faith.

But the difference with those who are both 'called' AND 'chosen', is that Christ already owns them, for The Father owned them before and gave them to Christ (John 17). The chosen cannot fall away, because they represent with Christ the foundation of His Church (Eph.2). And by the Biblical example with Apostle Paul we especially see this by Christ's divine intervention with Paul on the road to Damascus, directly influencing Paul's choice.

 

[ScottA]

That first sentence of yours, what do you mean?

That we are and were before the foundation of the world ?

In a word, Yes.

But the answer to your question means or rather requires our understanding that Time is only a passing creation which has a purpose that is contrary to the reality of God, never changing. It is in His reality--the only actual reality--are all things. Meaning, that what we now experience in this created setting, was and is in Him timeless.

Thus, the saying "before the foundation of the world" is to be understood as "before we looked at everything confused by Time." In other words, "before, in God where the Truth of every matter actually resides--but to us was--only for a time." After which, we too will come to say, "I am", for the times of this world will have passed.

 

[GodsGrace]

We can want to fly but that doesn't translate into we can fly. They seem to think unless you can do the impossible then you don't really have free will.

I see.
But, actually, it IS the difference between philosophical and theological free will.

Biblical free will has nothing to do with "willing" to do the impossible, or that type of free will.
However, yes, I understand what you mean.

It's like saying those who lost their salvation were never really saved in the first place. It's simplistic thinking.

Happily for those that understand that salvation CAN be lost...
Jesus left teachings and Paul left teachings that, yes, those that HAD FAITH, could wander and become lost again....
and
most do not want to hear this
BUT
early church theologians left teachings....
The Early Church Fathers....

You know...the ones that went to their death because they were Christian.
They learned from the Apostles,,,
but dontcha know...they weren't inspired!

I guess John Calvin was.

 

[GodsGrace]

It's just what many are taught in today's Churches, mostly influenced by the false OSAS doctrines of men. Since they keep that false OSAS doctrine, then if a believer falls away from Christ, then they simply say, "Well, that person wasn't a real believer anyway, and thus they never were saved," and they quote verses like 1 John 2:19.

Their idea is simply an extension of Calvinist doctrine that only those God causes to believe will be saved, thus removing any idea of one having a free will choice to believe.

Because of their false beliefs on man's OSAS doctrines, it is one of the reasons I keep reminding those in Christ that if one is 'called' only, it means they make their own choice to believe, or not to believe, and that means they can... fall away if they do not remain in the Faith.

Once I am CALLED
and then I choose to believe
can I then fall away?

But the difference with those who are both 'called' AND 'chosen', is that Christ already owns them, for The Father owned them before and gave them to Christ (John 17). The chosen cannot fall away, because they represent with Christ the foundation of His Church (Eph.2). And by the Biblical example with Apostle Paul we especially see this by Christ's divine intervention with Paul on the road to Damascus, directly influencing Paul's choice.

Above you're stating exactly what OSAS means,,,
and yet you claim you do not believe it.

This is very confusing.

 

[GodsGrace]

How would that actually happen? Let's follow this through, OK?

Much love!

Yes.
Let's see what Jesus and Paul taught.

 

[marks]

Yes.
Let's see what Jesus and Paul taught.

What would you do that would cause you to become unreborn?

Much love!

 

[GodsGrace]

Compare to . . .

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

I agree.

It appears that you think you cannot actually know this.

Know what?
I agree with all scripture.
Don't understand your point.

3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

And not being able to know this, well, the passage tells us that knowing this is truth is connected to our purifying ourselves, even as Jesus is pure.

Agreed.
You must be referring to

2 Cor 7:1
1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

This passage likewise informs us concerning Biblical "hope" being what we believe will happen because we have faith in God, and we believe His Word, here considered to be knowing. We know for a certainty this will happen. Not, I think maybe it could, and I really want it to! Rather, we Know . . .

We know for certain that we will be saved at the time of our death?
Yes.
We have eternal life IN JESUS.

Here is a choice we have. We can choose to believe this truth, and so live purifying lives. This is choosing within our nature.

Much love!

Agreed.
We do have to purify ourselves and live as close to God as possible.

 

[GodsGrace]

What would you do that would cause you to become unreborn?

Much love!

There are several things we could do to become unborn:


According to Jesus we can fall into temptation:

Luke 8:13
13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.


Jesus said that one could believe for a while.
A believer is a saved person.
And then he could fall away in time of temptation.


Paul taught we could listen to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons:

1 Timothy 4:1
1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,


Maybe some don't discipline their body:

1 Corinthians 9:27
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

 

[nedsk]

I see.
But, actually, it IS the difference between philosophical and theological free will.

Biblical free will has nothing to do with "willing" to do the impossible, or that type of free will.
However, yes, I understand what you mean.

Happily for those that understand that salvation CAN be lost...
Jesus left teachings and Paul left teachings that, yes, those that HAD FAITH, could wander and become lost again....
and
most do not want to hear this
BUT
early church theologians left teachings....
The Early Church Fathers....

You know...the ones that went to their death because they were Christian.
They learned from the Apostles,,,
but dontcha know...they weren't inspired!

I guess John Calvin was.

I agree completely agree about the difference I was just saying we can want to fly but free will can't make the impossible possible. That's omniscience not free will.

The rest is excellent

 

[Ronald Nolette]

This commonly held idea that we have "free will", what exactly is "free will"? The freedom to choose whatever you want. Only God has free will.

Our choices are extremely limited by our nature. I cannot choose to flap my arms and fly to the moon. I cannot choose to be Abraham Lincoln. I cannot choose to digest rocks.

I cannot choose to be older or more mature than I am.

Did you choose to be born? No. Can you choose to become unborn? No. There are an unlimited number of things you cannot choose to be or do. Only within the very narrow limits as established by God our Creator. And our re-Creator.

Can you choose to be reborn? No. You can believe and receive Jesus, and if the Father sees it's real, He gives you rebirth. You don't choose it. And neither can you choose to be unreborn. It's not in your nature.

Much love!

Those are choices.

biblically , free will has to do with one in their unsaved state to be able to choose god, love, obey and serve Him. and the biblical answer to that is a resounding No! Unsaved man does not have the capacity to be able to choose god in and of themselves.

 

[ProDeo]

In a word, Yes.

But the answer to your question means or rather requires our understanding that Time is only a passing creation which has a purpose that is contrary to the reality of God, never changing. It is in His reality--the only actual reality--are all things. Meaning, that what we now experience in this created setting, was and is in Him timeless.

Thus, the saying "before the foundation of the world" is to be understood as "before we looked at everything confused by Time." In other words, "before, in God where the Truth of every matter actually resides--but to us was--only for a time." After which, we too will come to say, "I am", for the times of this world will have passed.

Oh, for a moment I thought you were into the theory of preexistence.