Can any of you link or share a good argument against FULL preterism?

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Scott Downey

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Early Jewish & Christian Views of the 70 Weeks​


Jewish Interpretations (before Christ & around 1st century)


  • Many Jews took the 70 weeks as continuous (490 years).
  • They connected it with the coming of the Messiah or with events leading to the Maccabean revolt (2nd century BC).
  • Some Dead Sea Scrolls writings (Qumran sect) linked Daniel’s timeline to their own community struggles.
  • By Jesus’ day, Jews were expecting the Messiah soon, in part because they saw Daniel’s timetable pointing to that era.



Early Christians (1st–3rd century)


  • No gap theory among the earliest writers.
  • They mostly saw the prophecy fulfilled in Jesus Christ and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
  • Examples:
    • Julius Africanus (c. 160–240 AD): Calculated the 490 years as pointing to Christ’s first coming.
    • Eusebius (c. 260–339 AD): Said the 70 weeks ended with Christ’s ministry and Jerusalem’s fall.
    • Hippolytus (c. 170–236 AD): Applied the prophecy to Christ’s birth and death, continuous with no long pause.



Middle Ages


  • Church Fathers and later medieval commentators (Augustine, Jerome, etc.) usually saw the 70 weeks as fulfilled in Christ.
  • Jerome (c. 347–420 AD): Wrote a commentary on Daniel — he didn’t propose a “gap” but admitted some details were mysterious.
  • The idea of a “future Antichrist” appearing at the end of the 70th week was occasionally mentioned, but it wasn’t tied to a postponed week separated by centuries.



Modern Development of the “Gap”


  • The gap theory (69 weeks + long pause + future 70th week) only arose much later, in the 1800s with John Nelson Darby and the rise of dispensationalism.
  • Before then, Jewish and Christian interpreters almost always read the 70 weeks as a continuous span, already fulfilled in Christ or in the events leading up to 70 AD.



✅ Summary:


  • Jewish & early Christian interpreters = continuous 490 years, fulfilled in Messiah (or Maccabean history for some Jews).
  • No early evidence of a “gap” theory.
  • The gap / futurist view is a modern (19th-century) development tied to dispensational theology.
 

Scott Downey

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The GAP theory, no don't go for it.

I go with what the early church taught.
 

MatthewG

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I’ll be honest—I’m not an expert on full preterism or all the details it involves. But from where I stand, I believe Jesus did return, was seen by His bride, and those who pierced Him witnessed it too. Just like the messengers said—He ascended, and He came back in the same way, to those who were watching.

In my view, the bride of Christ was taken while Jerusalem faced God’s wrath. That season included the white throne judgment and the opening of the book of life for that specific age—the one directly addressed in scripture. That age lasted something like 1,500 years, give or take. And I believe Jesus brought it to a close, ushering in the age of fulfillment we’re living in now.

Of course, most folks either don’t care much or feel too emotionally tangled to talk about it clearly. It stirs up a lot—faith, bias, personal convictions… all of it.

And hey, I won’t pretend I’m free from bias either. I’ve got my own lens, just like everyone else.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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YEP! You need to learn basic English. How can you not even know what the word "after" means? It says He would be cut off AFTER the end of the 69th week, not during the 69th week at the end of it. You are twisting scripture to make it say what you want it to say and you have no conscience about doing that. You need to repent of your reckless treatment of God's holy word.
 

Ronald Nolette

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I am studying preterism and while I think some of what is claimed by full preterists is true I'm not inclined to believe that all of the prophecies have been fulfilled. In other words, I'm on the proverbial fence. I appreciate any good insights that you can share. Thank you in advance!
If you wish to do an in depth study of dispensational eschatology that is pre-mil and pre- trib, I suggest to you the book "Footsteps of the Messiah". by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum.

You can find it as his website ariel.org.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I said it is simply believing what the New Testament says.

I did not say it is simply believing in today's common futuristic eschatology ideas.
It's not what the New Testament says. You need to ask God for wisdom so that you stop believing this preterist nonsense (James 1:5-7).

The New Testament does not say that something will happen after 2,000 years. It says something will happen in the lifetime of the authors and of the audience.
No, it does not. You lack the discernment to know when they were speaking from God's perspective and when they were speaking from man's perspective. Jesus absolutely did not return in 70 AD and there was no resurrection of the dead at that time and no gathering of the elect. You have been duped by preterism and it's sad to see.

Preterism is reading the New Testament as it is, without complicated "plan B"
Without discernment.

, without man-made intersections, without ignoring the explicit timing, without breaking the prophecies and predictions into random pieces "fulfilled-unfulfilled", without endless speculations about the Revelation, antichrist etc.
Without discernment. Preterism is an overreaction to futurist dispensationalism. Both belief systems are terribly flawed and too extreme with no balance.
 

grafted branch

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That statement above suggests you don't understand your Bible history about God scattering the northern ten tribe kingdom of Israel out of the holy land first, leaving the Jews of the house of Judah at Jerusalem-Judea. It also shows you are not aware of the western migrations of the ten tribes out of their Assyrian captivity when they left the east and went westward into Asia Minor and Europe, and eventually became the western Christian nations. Much of that was prophecy given through God's prophet Hosea.

The reality of what I'm saying, per God's Word, is that probably the majority of the ten scattered tribes of Israel formed Christ's early Church in the Christian west, and that's who Jesus was really pointing to when He said that He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

After God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms per 1 Kings 11, only... the northern ten tribe "kingdom of Israel" became known as the "house of Israel" in later Old Testament Bible history. And when the Jews of the "house of Judah" of the southern "kingdom of Judah" rejected Jesus Christ, The Gospel then went to the Gentiles, in Asia Minor and Europe, where the majority of the ten tribe "house of Israel" had been scattered to in stages.

So anyone who follows Bible prophecy and Bible history, and even secular history that provides evidence of this, should be able to grasp that men's Dispensationalist theories like from Darby, and the double Gospel idea of Hyper-Dispensationalism, are simply JOKES that go directly against the evidence written in God's Word, and in history.
Well, we know from Jeremiah 31:36 that at some point the seed of Israel will cease from being a nation before God for ever. That means any verses that have unconditional eternal promises in them can’t be referring to national Israel. Ezekiel 37:25-26 contain those kind of promises, which to me means that they are referring to a spiritual Israel, not a national Israel.
 

Truth7t7

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LOL. Go away, little boy. To act as if there is no difference between full preterism and me agreeing with one thing that partial preterists believe while disagreeing with many other things they believe is utter nonsense. You apparently have no interest in being taken seriously.
Thanks for the compliments
 
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David in NJ

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The GAP theory, no don't go for it.

I go with what the early church taught.
Even BETTER is to believe every word of God

JESUS Says: “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”
 

David in NJ

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The GAP theory, no don't go for it.

I go with what the early church taught.
Even BETTER is to believe every word of God

JESUS Says: “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”
 

Scott Downey

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Even BETTER is to believe every word of God

JESUS Says: “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”
You are a modernist, a Scofield disciple then? That is where dispensationalism originated.
Is that what you believe?

Do you also believe Jesus when he says His return is as the time of Noah and says all will be destroyed who are on the earth at His return?
As in the world burns and is dissolved? Noah's world was destroyed by water, but ours is reserved for destruction by fire.

You do realize that believers are raptured off the earth to be with Him in the clouds, and then He burns the world in fire?
Which means believers will not experience the wrath of God to come, on this first earth.

And says nothing about Christ coming back to stand on this first earth-world. Any who say that are adding on to the scripture about the coming of Christ.

The Comfort of Christ’s Coming​

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen [b]asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The world sees Christ coming on and with the clouds of heaven and we meet Him in the air.

Mark 14:62
Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

Matthew 26:64
Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

IN THE AIR, not on the earth.
 
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Scott Downey

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6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with [c]tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Only those who believe what Christ says are saved

The rest, all are burned in that Day when He comes.

John 5:38
But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.
John 10:26
But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
 

HealthyShape

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It's not what the New Testament says. You need to ask God for wisdom so that you stop believing this preterist nonsense (James 1:5-7).


No, it does not. You lack the discernment to know when they were speaking from God's perspective and when they were speaking from man's perspective. Jesus absolutely did not return in 70 AD and there was no resurrection of the dead at that time and no gathering of the elect. You have been duped by preterism and it's sad to see.


Without discernment.


Without discernment. Preterism is an overreaction to futurist dispensationalism. Both belief systems are terribly flawed and too extreme with no balance.
"Without wisdom, without discernment" are just vague, lazy arguments that can be used by all sides about anything they do not agree with.

The New Testament church believed and taught that they are in the last times and that the Lord will return in their generation. It is even accepted in the standard, mainstream scholarship.

"You need a discernment to read something else than what is written and what they clearly believed it to mean" is rather a coping mechanism for the issue that somebody's views do not fit the belief of the apostolic church.
 
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Scott Downey

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When did or will (The Great Tribulation) take place that's seen in Matthew 24:21?
Well after the time of Christ, before He comes again, that is what He said.
There is no gap in Daniel's 70 weeks of years, that is illogical.
In various ways, I can be a partial preterist, futurist and non-dispensationalist, I see all of those in scripture, some of Mark 13, and Matthew 24 did happen in the first century.

What I don't see at all is full preterist, that is illogical

Tribulations have come and gone, and read Mark 13.

Act 14
21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.” 23 So when they had appointed elders in every church, and prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

Mark 13, obviously some of what Christ said happened back in those days

1 Then as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, “Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!

2 And Jesus answered and said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?”

5 And Jesus, answering them, began to say: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 6 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and will deceive many. 7 But when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be troubled; for such things must happen, but the end is not yet. 8 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be earthquakes in various places, and there will be famines [a]and troubles. These are the beginnings of [b]sorrows.

And so it continues to this day
Then end of sorrows does not happen until we get the First earth destroyed, have the final judgment, and get our New earth wherein dwells righteousness.

There has been at least 2 abominations of desolations, one was Antiochus during the Maccabean times and one when Rome sacked Jerusalem. There can be another in the future.

Some have said, that could be the coming great apostasy, the departing from the faith of the end times, and or the antichrist sitting in a rebuilt temple of God claiming he is god.

The one mentioned by Christ was future, but priorly, an abomination had already occurred.
 
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Scott Downey

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The Seventy-Weeks Prophecy​

20 Now while I was speaking, praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy mountain of my God, 21 yes, while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, [c]being caused to fly swiftly, reached me about the time of the evening offering. 22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, “O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you skill to understand. 23 At the beginning of your supplications the [d]command went out, and I have come to tell you, for you are greatly beloved; therefore consider the matter, and understand the vision:

24 “Seventy [e]weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
[f]To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint [g]the Most Holy.

Daniel 9 has been debated forever the meaning.
V24 reads to me as if it has been accomplished.
Christ has been anointed, He has been given all power over earth and in heaven.
Christ's death finished the transgression and made an end of sins. bringing in everlasting righteousness for His people
And our citizenship is in heaven, where is Mt Zion, our holy city, New Jerusalem, where God dwells with His people.

Hebrews 12
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the [a]general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Revelation 21

All Things Made New

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.

Hebrews 9:26
He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Hebrews 10
For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once [a]purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

Christ’s Death Fulfills God’s Will​

5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”
8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, [b]O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been [c]sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
 
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Taken

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Can any of you link or share a good argument against FULL preterism?

Peter-ism.

Suffix ISM- Followers of the (person, place, thing) identified…. Aka (Peter)

Peter - aka Simon son Of Jona.

Simon son OF Jona was solicited (asked/ invited) By Jesus, for Simon son OF Jona, to be a Follower of Jesus.

Simon son OF Jona accepted, to Follow Jesus.

Points of Reverence;
Simon Followed Jesus.
Simon Denied Jesus.
Simon Followed Jesus.
Jesus gave Simon a Surname “Peter”.
Jesus asked “his” chosen disciples a question.
None could correctly answer.
God told Simon son of Jona the answer.
Simon the son of Jona, orally spoke the answer.
Jesus spoke Simon son of Jona, was blessed to receive the correct answer from God.
Jesus spoke to Simon, calling him Simon Peter…
Revealing … upon Simons “correct answer From God”…Jesus would Build “His Church”;

Revealing… the ROCK upon which Jesus’ Church Would Be BUILT…
IS Jesus IS the Christ, The Son of the Living God.

Peter-ism is a teaching, to encourage, to Convince one to be Followers of Peter…
And INCLUDES:

Peter-ist…
A Follower of Peter, the “person”.

And the Peter-ist’s “interpretation” of “Peters” Beliefs.

The Big BLURR…

“THE CHURCH” Jesus Established IS Jesus’ Church.

“Jesus’ Church” IS Built Upon the ROCK Foundation; Jesus IS The Christ, The Son of the Living God.”

Every individual, WHO willingly Agrees…To Heartfully Believe and Testify their true Heartful Belief…THAT:
“Jesus IS the Christ, the Son of the Living God”…
Become “members” of Christ Jesus’ Church…
Such “members” ARE “AS”…”THE Parallel” OF little pebbles, stones, bricks, rocks and mortar that are the “continuing foundation” which “HOLDS together A Building”.

Jesus requested men Follow Him.
God revealed, Jesus revealed, ONLY the Lord God Himself Gives MEN “His Understanding of HiS Own Word”.

Interpretation is … of Scripture (Gods approved words)…IS stating that “individuals “understanding”.

Bottom line… Any man who wants to Know The Lord Gods “interpretation” / “understanding”….
He IS the one to Ask.

Glory To God,
Taken
 
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Truth7t7

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There is no gap in Daniel's 70 weeks of years, that is illogical.
I agree that dispensationalisms 70th week gap is a joke, so is the belief that Daniel's written words (Seventy Weeks) actually mean (Four Hundred Ninety Years)

It's my opinion that Daniel's seventy weeks are literal 7 day periods that total 490 future days, you've read my posting on Daniel's 70 future weeks I'm sure?
some of Mark 13, and Matthew 24 did happen in the first century.
What might that be? please provide a direct clear explaintion
Tribulations have come and gone, and read Mark 13.
This is a suggestive interlude without revealing your true belief "Why"?
Mark 13, obviously some of what Christ said happened back in those days
More suggestive interlude without a direct response "why"?
And so it continues to this day
What continues to this day, more suggestive interludes without a direct response "Why"?
There has been at least 2 abominations of desolations, one was Antiochus during the Maccabean times and one when Rome sacked Jerusalem. There can be another in the future.
Standard preterist reformed theology in claims Matthew 24:15 Daniel's AOD has come and gone

If Daniel's AOD took place in 167BC with Antiochus then why did Matthew even write about it some 200 years later? Its more of the Ole preterist reformed theology dog and pony show

If Matthew 24:15 Daniel's AOD took place in the supposed reformed theology dual fulfillment song and dance Jerusalem 70AD the when did Matthew 24:21 in (The Great Tribulation) take place?
 
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rwb

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If you wish to do an in depth study of dispensational eschatology that is pre-mil and pre- trib, I suggest to you the book "Footsteps of the Messiah". by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum.

You can find it as his website ariel.org.

Why do you promote a doctrine (dispensational eschatology) that teaches God has TWO Covenants of Grace, one for ethnic Israel and the other for the Church?
 

rwb

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When did or will (The Great Tribulation) take place that's seen in Matthew 24:21?

It began in the first century AD as the Gospel of the Kingdom of God began to be proclaimed unto all the nations of the earth, just as Christ warned His disciples they too would experience.

Matthew 24:14 (KJV) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
 
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