ONE DIED FOR ALL

[Doug]

To say that the cross and its meaning were a secret is to deny the plain testimony of the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets.

I did not say the cross was a mystery.
The prophets foretold Christ's sufferings and his resurrection. What was a mystery was how God could forgive anyone's sin. Show me a verse in the old testament that does.

Look at this verse...............[Heb 9:15 KJV] 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Christ redeemed Israel's sins under the first testament NOT ALL..............The mystery was he died for ALL. Sorry you havent produced any verses from the old testament that says he died for all. You can only know that he died for all, even you and me, by Paul.

 

[LoveYeshua]

I am reading your post thoroughly and appreciate your effort and time

I agree that we can look back and see that this is the start of the gospel of God in which is revealed our Saviour

However, if you set aside what we now can know and just look at it from the standpoint of those who read this before Christ they could not know that Christ died for all

Doug please listen to christ, this can be disproved simply by the words of Jesus Himself in the synoptic gospels, before Paul ever preached.

One clear verse is Matthew 20:28 (NKJV):
"just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

Explanation​

Here Jesus says openly that His mission was to give His life as a ransom. A ransom is the price paid to set others free. He makes it clear that His death was not accidental but a willing sacrifice. This was not hidden until Paul, because Jesus Himself declared it to His disciples while He was still alive.

The same truth is repeated in Mark 10:45, almost word for word, showing it was part of the early teaching. In Luke 22:19–20, at the Last Supper, Jesus explains that His body would be given and His blood shed for them, sealing the new covenant.

So even before Paul preached, the synoptic gospels recorded Jesus revealing the purpose of His death: to ransom, to save, to give life to others. Those who heard Him could already know that His death was for them, not just an event without meaning.

Would you like me to expand this into one flowing paragraph (finalized style), weaving together Matthew, Mark, and Luke so you can use it as a continuous text against the claim?

I am reading your post thoroughly and appreciate your effort and time

I agree that we can look back and see that this is the start of the gospel of God in which is revealed our Saviour

However, if you set aside what we now can know and just look at it from the standpoint of those who read this before Christ they could not know that Christ died for all

No, they did not see it fully, but the prophets had already spoken of it, and Jesus Himself confirmed it when He came.

The Old Testament gave shadows and prophecies, like Isaiah 53 which says the Servant of the Lord would be “wounded for our transgressions” and that “the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.” But those who lived before Christ could not see the whole picture clearly. Even the disciples struggled to understand when Jesus first spoke of His death. Yet, when Jesus walked the earth, He revealed it plainly. In Matthew 20:28 He said that the Son of Man came to give His life a ransom for many, and at the Last Supper He said His body was given and His blood shed for others.

So, the full knowledge that Christ would die for all was hidden in mystery before He came, but not from the time of Paul. It was Jesus Himself who first declared it openly.

BLessings

 

[LoveYeshua]

Once again nothing speaks of anything specific about the lamb dying for the sins of all. In fact, the blood only delivered Israel.

the WHOLE bible is about Christ;

1. The Old Testament
The Old Testament was filled with shadows and prophecies that pointed to the coming Messiah. Isaiah spoke of the Servant of the Lord who would be wounded for our sins, saying that the Lord would lay on Him the iniquity of us all. This showed that the sacrifice of the Messiah would go far beyond the blood of animals that only covered Israel, for it would reach to all.

2. The New Testament: Words of Christ and His Disciples
When Jesus came, He revealed openly what had been hidden in mystery. John the Baptist declared of Him, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.” Jesus Himself said that the Son of Man came to give His life a ransom for many, and at the Last Supper He gave the bread and the cup, saying that His body was given and His blood shed for them. The apostles who walked with Him confirmed this truth, teaching that His sacrifice was once for all and not for Israel only, but for every believer.

3. Revelation and the Future
The final book of the Bible shows Christ as the Lamb who was slain and who redeemed people to God from every tribe, tongue, and nation. Revelation looks ahead to the day when He will return in glory, and all the prophecies will be fulfilled, as He reigns and judges and brings to completion the plan of salvation that began before the foundation of the world.

 

[LoveYeshua]

The blood atonement was only for Israel not for all

this is not what Christ said this is what he spoke of, Again not My words but Christ words;

In John 3:16–17 Jesus said, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.” Jesus made it clear His sacrifice was not only for Israel, but for the whole world.

Again, in John 10:16, He said, “And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.” Jesus showed His blood would cover not just Israel but all nations, joining them into one flock under Him.

And in Matthew 26:28, at the Last Supper, He said, “For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” His own words show His blood was poured out for “many” — not only Israel, but all who come to Him in faith.

We had already discussed this in another thread some time ago Doug.

 

[LoveYeshua]

It cant be known from Psalm 22 that what was written is about Christ's crucifixion. We can know it from our vantage point.

[Psa 103:3 KJV] 3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;

Whose sins are forgiven? it doesnt say Christ died for all. It is Israels iniquities.

Regardless Brother, Christ clearly did say salvation was for all as I just wrote to you post no 24. Also do not forget many verses in the O.T. that speaks about strangers becoming one with israel.

 

[LoveYeshua]

I did not say the cross was a mystery.
The prophets foretold Christ's sufferings and his resurrection. What was a mystery was how God could forgive anyone's sin. Show me a verse in the old testament that does.

Look at this verse...............[Heb 9:15 KJV] 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Christ redeemed Israel's sins under the first testament NOT ALL..............The mystery was he died for ALL. Sorry you havent produced any verses from the old testament that says he died for all. You can only know that he died for all, even you and me, by Paul.

You are right that the prophets foretold Christ’s sufferings and resurrection, and it is also true that many mysteries were not fully understood until He came. But the Old Testament does give light on this, and Jesus Himself confirmed it clearly. Isaiah spoke of the Servant of the Lord who would be wounded for our sins and that the Lord would lay on Him the iniquity of us all, not just Israel. That is why John the Baptist, standing before Jesus, cried out, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.” These words were spoken before Paul, and they came directly from the Spirit of God through the prophets and through Christ.

Jesus Himself explained that His blood was not for Israel only. At the Last Supper He said, “This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” And in John 3:16–17 He made it plain: “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.” These are the words of Christ, and they show that His death reaches beyond Israel to all nations.

So while Paul preached the same truth, the mystery was already revealed in Jesus’ own words, built upon what the prophets had spoken long before. God’s plan of salvation was never for Israel alone but for the world, and Christ Himself testified of it.

DO you agree with this Doug? it is all from scripture and NOT my personal opinions.

 

[Doug]

Doug please listen to christ, this can be disproved simply by the words of Jesus Himself in the synoptic gospels, before Paul ever preached.

One clear verse is Matthew 20:28 (NKJV):
"just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

I am saying that all the cross accomplished was not found in the old testament. It was only made known by Paul that Jesus died for all.

Jesus said he gave his life a ransom for MANY.......not ALL....the many was only Israel

 

[Doug]

So, the full knowledge that Christ would die for all was hidden in mystery before He came, but not from the time of Paul. It was Jesus Himself who first declared it openly.

As I said Jesus shed his blood for the many which was Israel. Jesus died to forgive Israel's sin under the first testament................[Heb 9:15 KJV] 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

 

[Doug]

the WHOLE bible is about Christ;

1. The Old Testament
The Old Testament was filled with shadows and prophecies that pointed to the coming Messiah. Isaiah spoke of the Servant of the Lord who would be wounded for our sins, saying that the Lord would lay on Him the iniquity of us all. This showed that the sacrifice of the Messiah would go far beyond the blood of animals that only covered Israel, for it would reach to all.

2. The New Testament: Words of Christ and His Disciples
When Jesus came, He revealed openly what had been hidden in mystery. John the Baptist declared of Him, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.” Jesus Himself said that the Son of Man came to give His life a ransom for many, and at the Last Supper He gave the bread and the cup, saying that His body was given and His blood shed for them. The apostles who walked with Him confirmed this truth, teaching that His sacrifice was once for all and not for Israel only, but for every believer.

3. Revelation and the Future
The final book of the Bible shows Christ as the Lamb who was slain and who redeemed people to God from every tribe, tongue, and nation. Revelation looks ahead to the day when He will return in glory, and all the prophecies will be fulfilled, as He reigns and judges and brings to completion the plan of salvation that began before the foundation of the world.

I limited my statement to the old testament that you cant find verses that say Christ died for all.....that he died for all cant be found is all I am saying cant be found
This was said by me because people claim that people in the old testament could look forward to the cross

 

[Doug]

this is not what Christ said this is what he spoke of, Again not My words but Christ words;

In John 3:16–17 Jesus said, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.” Jesus made it clear His sacrifice was not only for Israel, but for the whole world.

Again, in John 10:16, He said, “And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.” Jesus showed His blood would cover not just Israel but all nations, joining them into one flock under Him.

And in Matthew 26:28, at the Last Supper, He said, “For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” His own words show His blood was poured out for “many” — not only Israel, but all who come to Him in faith.

We had already discussed this in another thread some time ago Doug.

In John 3:16–17 Jesus said, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.” Jesus made it clear His sacrifice was not only for Israel, but for the whole world.

[Jhn 3:18 KJV] 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John is not saying that salvation was by the cross. This verse say it was by believing in the NAME of Christ. Believing he was their Messiah the Son of God

Again, in John 10:16, He said, “And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.” Jesus showed His blood would cover not just Israel but all nations, joining them into one flock under Him.

The other sheep were the Jews scattered abroad

 

[Doug]

Regardless Brother, Christ clearly did say salvation was for all as I just wrote to you post no 24. Also do not forget many verses in the O.T. that speaks about strangers becoming one with israel.

The strangers had to go thru Israel. Paul revealed we don't

 

[LoveYeshua]

I limited my statement to the old testament that you cant find verses that say Christ died for all.....that he died for all cant be found is all I am saying cant be found
This was said by me because people claim that people in the old testament could look forward to the cross

Doug,
It is true that in the Old Testament the exact words “Christ died for all” are not written. The prophets spoke in shadows and figures, so the people living then did not see the whole picture clearly. Yet the message of salvation for all was already there. Isaiah said that the Servant of the Lord would bear the sins of many and that the Lord would lay on Him the iniquity of us all (Isaiah 53:6, 12). This pointed forward to the Messiah’s suffering on behalf of every sinner.

Jesus Himself explained one of the clearest Old Testament signs when He said, “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:14–15). When Israel was bitten by deadly serpents, God gave them a way of life: anyone who looked at the bronze serpent would live (Numbers 21:8–9). That was a shadow of Christ’s cross. Just as the bronze serpent brought healing to all who looked, Christ being lifted up brings eternal life to all who believe, not Israel only but the whole world.

So even if the Old Testament did not use the exact words, it gave the prophecy and the picture. The people could not see it fully, but Jesus showed that the signs and promises were always pointing to Him, and He made plain what the shadows meant.

 

[Doug]

Isaiah spoke of the Servant of the Lord who would be wounded for our sins and that the Lord would lay on Him the iniquity of us all, not just Israel.

You have no scriptural basis to say we are included as being the ones wounded for our sins
Scripture identifies who is being spoken of, its Israel not us.................[Isa 53:8 KJV] 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
He died for my people ISRAEL

 

[Doug]

So even if the Old Testament did not use the exact words, it gave the prophecy and the picture.

If the exact words arent there then it is not being conveyed. Paul uses the exact words.

 

[Doug]

Doug,
It is true that in the Old Testament the exact words “Christ died for all” are not written. The prophets spoke in shadows and figures, so the people living then did not see the whole picture clearly. Yet the message of salvation for all was already there. Isaiah said that the Servant of the Lord would bear the sins of many and that the Lord would lay on Him the iniquity of us all (Isaiah 53:6, 12). This pointed forward to the Messiah’s suffering on behalf of every sinner.

Jesus Himself explained one of the clearest Old Testament signs when He said, “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:14–15). When Israel was bitten by deadly serpents, God gave them a way of life: anyone who looked at the bronze serpent would live (Numbers 21:8–9). That was a shadow of Christ’s cross. Just as the bronze serpent brought healing to all who looked, Christ being lifted up brings eternal life to all who believe, not Israel only but the whole world.

So even if the Old Testament did not use the exact words, it gave the prophecy and the picture. The people could not see it fully, but Jesus showed that the signs and promises were always pointing to Him, and He made plain what the shadows meant.

Maybe you missed this
I was saying that another mystery revolves around how did God forgive the sins in the old testament.
Please show me averse in the OT where it explains the basis for God's forgiveness

 

[LoveYeshua]

Maybe you missed this
I was saying that another mystery revolves around how did God forgive the sins in the old testament.
Please show me averse in the OT where it explains the basis for God's forgiveness

The Old Testament does explain the basis for God’s forgiveness, and it does so in very clear words. When God revealed Himself to Moses He said, “The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin” (Exodus 34:6–7). This is the foundation: God Himself is merciful and He forgives. He also gave Israel sacrifices as a sign of atonement, saying, “For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls” (Leviticus 17:11).

This shows that forgiveness was not earned by men but was given through the blood that God provided, pointing forward to the greater sacrifice of the Messiah.

The prophets also spoke with great clarity. Isaiah declared, “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow” (Isaiah 1:18), and again, “I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins” (Isaiah 43:25). Micah marveled, saying, “Who is a God like You, pardoning iniquity and passing over the transgression of the remnant of His heritage? … You will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea” (Micah 7:18–19).
David, too, rejoiced in God’s forgiveness, writing, “Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered” (Psalm 32:1), and again, “As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us” (Psalm 103:12).

The basis of this forgiveness was not only mercy and atonement, but also God’s unconditional love. Through Jeremiah God spoke, “Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you” (Jeremiah 31:3). This everlasting love is what moved Him to forgive, to cleanse, and to promise restoration to His people.

All of these verses show that the Old Testament did not leave forgiveness as a mystery. The basis was always the mercy of God, His unconditional love, given through repentance and through the blood of atonement that He Himself provided, which looked ahead to the Messiah. The cross of Christ was the fulfillment of what God had already made known: that He is a God who forgives iniquity, who blots out sins, and who makes the guilty clean. Do you believe this Doug?

 

[Doug]

The Old Testament does explain the basis for God’s forgiveness, and it does so in very clear words. When God revealed Himself to Moses He said, “The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin” (Exodus 34:6–7). This is the foundation: God Himself is merciful and He forgives.

This verse only says that God forgives NOT how

 

[Doug]

He also gave Israel sacrifices as a sign of atonement, saying, “For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls” (Leviticus 17:11).

[Heb 10:4 KJV] 4 For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

How God can forgive is not explained by the blood of animal sacrifices

 

[rwb]

[Isa 53:4 KJV] 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

We know about the cross but from this verse the OT saints couldnt because its not specific

[Isa 53:6 KJV] 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

The iniquity of the sheep which is Israel was laid on him but how?

[Isa 53:8 KJV] 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Stricken how?

[Isa 53:10 KJV] 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Make his soul an offering how?

[Isa 53:11-12 KJV] 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Justify many how?

Bare sin of many how?

You couldnt know about the cross from the old testament from Isiah.......there were also OT verses that spoke of his crucifixion but were veiled
We can know it because we have the whole Bible

That which was an unknowable mystery of Old was "His name shall be called Jesus". The prophet foretells of the virgin birth of a son his name Emmanuel, being interpreted God with us. The Old Covenant could not know His name before He was born of the virgin and given that name Jesus the Christ. But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth His Son to redeem them under the law, sending the Spirit of His Son into hearts that they might become an heir of God through Christ.

Matthew 1:21-23 (KJV) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Isaiah 7:14 (KJV) Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Galatians 4:5-7 (KJV) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

 

[Doug]

The prophets also spoke with great clarity. Isaiah declared, “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow” (Isaiah 1:18), and again, “I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins” (Isaiah 43:25).

For my own sake is why NOT how