Free Will

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ScottA

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Oh, for a moment I thought you were into the theory of preexistence.
"Preexistence" (having no knowledge of the theory), is perhaps as good a word as any to describe what by God "was", "before", and "then"...and only "now made manifest."

As for the theory of preexistence, I do not know--it may very well be way off the mark.
 

GodsGrace

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Those are choices.

biblically , free will has to do with one in their unsaved state to be able to choose god, love, obey and serve Him. and the biblical answer to that is a resounding No! Unsaved man does not have the capacity to be able to choose god in and of themselves.
Ronald Nolette
That is NOT the definition of biblical free will.

Sounds like you're reformed.
The reformed faith changes EVERYTHING about Christian theology.

THIS is what free will is in theology:

The ability to make a moral choice when offered two alternatives.

The problem is that you don't believe man has free will...
which is one of the catalysts for Calvinist theology...

but, of course, as all other Christian denominations know...
man DOES have free will.

Unsaved man HAS the ABILITY to choose God:

Romans 10:16-17
16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.



Faith comes by hearing....
and believing....


Acts 16:30-31a
30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,
 

Davy

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Once I am CALLED
and then I choose to believe
can I then fall away?

As Apostle Paul showed in 2 Thessalonians 2 about those who become apostates by falling away to that coming "man of sin" (the pseudo-Christ Jesus warned us about in Matthew 24:23-26), that future event is about believers that become deceived, and thus subject to the "strong delusion" Paul mentions later in that Chapter.

The gist of that matter is that those apostates will not realize... who that "man of sin" actually will be. They will think it is our Lord Jesus Christ. This is what the "strong delusion" Paul mentioned is about, falling away to another in place of Christ, not waiting for Jesus to come afterwards.

The Churches today that try to preach that "man of sin" will be some Attila The Hun, or a Hitler, or some other evil tyrant and murderer, have completely left Bible Scripture about the coming false-Messiah to Jerusalem who will sit in a 3rd Jewish temple built there for the end and proclaim himself as Christ, and having the power of great signs and wonders to cause the deceived to believe it. That is what God's Word shows is actually going to happen. And it is our Heavenly Father Who is sending that "strong delusion" upon the deceived, like Paul said there in 2 Thess.2.


Above you're stating exactly what OSAS means,,,
and yet you claim you do not believe it.

This is very confusing.

No, I am not confusing what the OSAS doctrine of men is about. Here are things in that doctrine that are against God's written Word:

1. OSAS believes that ALL our sins were forgiven by our 1st Faith on Jesus Christ's death on the cross. NOT so per Apostle Paul in Romans 3:25. Paul said only 'sins that are PAST' are forgiven at our 1st belief on Jesus Christ.'

2. OSAS believes after having believed on Jesus, we do not have sin anymore. Not what Jesus showed, nor Apostle John, because in Luke 11 the Apostles asked Lord Jesus how to pray, and He gave them The Lord's Prayer which ASKS FORGIVENESS OF SIN.

3. And in 1 John 1, speaking to believers on Christ, John showed that we still need to repent and ask Jesus forgiveness of FUTURE SIN we may commit.

4. The truly hard-line OSAS Churches on that doctrine no longer offer Communion with Christ, because they claim Jesus already forgave ALL a believers sins, past, present, and future. If this were so, then why did Apostles Paul and Peter warn brethren against falling away, and even that many believers in the latter days would not heed sound doctrine? (2 Tim.4:3-4; 2 Peter 2:1-3)

5. If all sins one may ever commit were forgiven at our 1st belief, then why did Jesus say in Matthew 7 that those who will be saying to Him, "Lord, Lord..." and that they preached Him in their streets, and did many wonderful works in His Name, yet Jesus will say to those, "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt.7:23).

So what do we do with Bible Scripture that may make us feel a bit uncomfortable, because men's doctrines preach something else? Who do we listen to?

Isa 2:22
22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?
KJV
 

Scott Downey

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B.C., I chose to sin, I chose my home, vehicle clothes friends on and on. I chose that day to serve Christ.
So, IMHO, we have limited free will. Or do we :IDK:
John 8:34
Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.
 
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Scott Downey

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We can only choose from the options available to us.

I've defined free will to be exactly that, you are free to choose whatever you will. This cannot be applied to humans.

The reason I post this is that some people appear to believe we can choose things that we are not able to select, for instance, you cannot choose to become "unborn again" as some seem to think you can. But we don't have power over what kind of being we are.

Much love!
As also says the scriptures, which some here would rather not think on

Scripture constantly affirms we are saved by His mercy and grace towards us.
Not anything else.

Romans 9 is a good read, and relevant.

I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my [a]countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

Israel’s Rejection and God’s Purpose​

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Israel’s Rejection and God’s Justice​

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As He says also in Hosea:

“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”
27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
28 For [b]He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.”
29 And as Isaiah said before:

“Unless the Lord of [c]Sabaoth had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”
 

Nancy

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John 8:34
Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.
Hi Scott,
In my post I did NOT say that I choose to sin after receiving Christ in 1991. I has setbacks early on, but I'm pushing 70 years old now and choose to NOT sin after believing.
 

GodsGrace

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As Apostle Paul showed in 2 Thessalonians 2 about those who become apostates by falling away to that coming "man of sin" (the pseudo-Christ Jesus warned us about in Matthew 24:23-26), that future event is about believers that become deceived, and thus subject to the "strong delusion" Paul mentions later in that Chapter.

The gist of that matter is that those apostates will not realize... who that "man of sin" actually will be. They will think it is our Lord Jesus Christ. This is what the "strong delusion" Paul mentioned is about, falling away to another in place of Christ, not waiting for Jesus to come afterwards.

The Churches today that try to preach that "man of sin" will be some Attila The Hun, or a Hitler, or some other evil tyrant and murderer, have completely left Bible Scripture about the coming false-Messiah to Jerusalem who will sit in a 3rd Jewish temple built there for the end and proclaim himself as Christ, and having the power of great signs and wonders to cause the deceived to believe it. That is what God's Word shows is actually going to happen. And it is our Heavenly Father Who is sending that "strong delusion" upon the deceived, like Paul said there in 2 Thess.2.




No, I am not confusing what the OSAS doctrine of men is about. Here are things in that doctrine that are against God's written Word:

1. OSAS believes that ALL our sins were forgiven by our 1st Faith on Jesus Christ's death on the cross. NOT so per Apostle Paul in Romans 3:25. Paul said only 'sins that are PAST' are forgiven at our 1st belief on Jesus Christ.'

2. OSAS believes after having believed on Jesus, we do not have sin anymore. Not what Jesus showed, nor Apostle John, because in Luke 11 the Apostles asked Lord Jesus how to pray, and He gave them The Lord's Prayer which ASKS FORGIVENESS OF SIN.

3. And in 1 John 1, speaking to believers on Christ, John showed that we still need to repent and ask Jesus forgiveness of FUTURE SIN we may commit.

4. The truly hard-line OSAS Churches on that doctrine no longer offer Communion with Christ, because they claim Jesus already forgave ALL a believers sins, past, present, and future. If this were so, then why did Apostles Paul and Peter warn brethren against falling away, and even that many believers in the latter days would not heed sound doctrine? (2 Tim.4:3-4; 2 Peter 2:1-3)

5. If all sins one may ever commit were forgiven at our 1st belief, then why did Jesus say in Matthew 7 that those who will be saying to Him, "Lord, Lord..." and that they preached Him in their streets, and did many wonderful works in His Name, yet Jesus will say to those, "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt.7:23).

So what do we do with Bible Scripture that may make us feel a bit uncomfortable, because men's doctrines preach something else? Who do we listen to?

Isa 2:22
22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?
KJV
Sounds OK
But here's what you stated in your post no. 33

But the difference with those who are both 'called' AND 'chosen', is that Christ already owns them, for The Father owned them before and gave them to Christ (John 17). The chosen cannot fall away, because they represent with Christ the foundation of His Church (Eph.2). And by the Biblical example with Apostle Paul we especially see this by Christ's divine intervention with Paul on the road to Damascus, directly influencing Paul's choice.

We'd have to stop and define CALLED and also CHOSEN.
Does God call everyone or just a select few?
Who does God CHOOSE?

You see Davy....
Your statement that those who are both called and chosen shows a lack of understanding of the Christian faith.

AND

It show that you DO believe in OSAS.

It could be that we've wandered SO FAR from the Christian faith that we can't even describe it anymore.

OSAS means that once a person becomes a believer, they can NEVER fall away.

And THIS is NOT what the NT teaches.
 

Davy

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Sounds OK
But here's what you stated in your post no. 33

But the difference with those who are both 'called' AND 'chosen', is that Christ already owns them, for The Father owned them before and gave them to Christ (John 17). The chosen cannot fall away, because they represent with Christ the foundation of His Church (Eph.2). And by the Biblical example with Apostle Paul we especially see this by Christ's divine intervention with Paul on the road to Damascus, directly influencing Paul's choice.

We'd have to stop and define CALLED and also CHOSEN.
Does God call everyone or just a select few?
Who does God CHOOSE?

Are you asking if their are 'chosen' today, or even at the end of this world? The answer of course is yes. So how does one know? Are they on the same level or order as Christ's Apostles, or the Old Testament prophets, Patriarchs, etc.? No. God is done with the idea of His chosen prophets and Apostles, as they served as the 'foundation', and Christ's Apostles were direct witnesses of The Gospel having come to pass.

Those Jesus forewarned in Mark 13 about being delivered up at the end of this world to give a Testimony for Him is once such example of a group of 'chosen' for the end of this world. Not all of us (if we are here for the "great tribulation", will be delivered up, otherwise those of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 "caught up" to Jesus on the day of His future coming could not happen.

You see Davy....
Your statement that those who are both called and chosen shows a lack of understanding of the Christian faith.

Not at all, it's really kind of the other way around, those who don't understand the difference between those like Apostle Paul, whom Jesus divinely intervened with, and said Paul was His "chosen vessel", CLEARLY cannot apply to all believers.

If you think it does, then I'd like hear about YOUR story of how Lord Jesus divinely struck you down like He did with Paul, and influenced your choice to believe on Him, thus removing all doubt, with that happening PRIOR to your hearing The Gospel and PRIOR to your choosing to believe on Him.

It show that you DO believe in OSAS.

And again you are wrong about that. What I revealed from Bible Scripture about the chosen, like Apostle Paul, Jonah, God's prophets, and Patriarchs, does NOT apply to all believers. God chose those, and in John 17 Jesus revealed beyond all doubt that His Apostles were owned... by The Father first, and The Father gave them to Jesus. And that is WHY... when Jesus appeared to them and told them to follow, they got up and followed, asking no questions.

Jesus speaking of His chosen Apostles:

John 17:6
6
I have manifested Thy name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were, and Thou gavest them Me; and they have kept Thy word.
KJV


Lord Jesus made a distinction between His chosen disciples and the multitudes...

Matt 13:10-11
10 And the disciples came, and said unto Him, "Why speakest thou unto them in parables?"
11 He answered and said unto them,
"Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
KJV

That is not men's false OSAS doctrine. Even Christ's chosen have need of repentance of future sin like Apostle John showed in 1 John 1. What Apostle John said there is against the doctrine of men called Once Saved, Always Saved. It would appear that you have yet to clearly understand man's OSAS doctrines.
 

GodsGrace

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Are you asking if their are 'chosen' today, or even at the end of this world? The answer of course is yes. So how does one know? Are they on the same level or order as Christ's Apostles, or the Old Testament prophets, Patriarchs, etc.? No. God is done with the idea of His chosen prophets and Apostles, as they served as the 'foundation', and Christ's Apostles were direct witnesses of The Gospel having come to pass.

Those Jesus forewarned in Mark 13 about being delivered up at the end of this world to give a Testimony for Him is once such example of a group of 'chosen' for the end of this world. Not all of us (if we are here for the "great tribulation", will be delivered up, otherwise those of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 "caught up" to Jesus on the day of His future coming could not happen.



Not at all, it's really kind of the other way around, those who don't understand the difference between those like Apostle Paul, whom Jesus divinely intervened with, and said Paul was His "chosen vessel", CLEARLY cannot apply to all believers.

If you think it does, then I'd like hear about YOUR story of how Lord Jesus divinely struck you down like He did with Paul, and influenced your choice to believe on Him, thus removing all doubt, with that happening PRIOR to your hearing The Gospel and PRIOR to your choosing to believe on Him.



And again you are wrong about that. What I revealed from Bible Scripture about the chosen, like Apostle Paul, Jonah, God's prophets, and Patriarchs, does NOT apply to all believers. God chose those, and in John 17 Jesus revealed beyond all doubt that His Apostles were owned... by The Father first, and The Father gave them to Jesus. And that is WHY... when Jesus appeared to them and told them to follow, they got up and followed, asking no questions.

Jesus speaking of His chosen Apostles:

John 17:6
6
I have manifested Thy name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were, and Thou gavest them Me; and they have kept Thy word.
KJV


Lord Jesus made a distinction between His chosen disciples and the multitudes...

Matt 13:10-11
10 And the disciples came, and said unto Him, "Why speakest thou unto them in parables?"
11 He answered and said unto them,
"Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
KJV

That is not men's false OSAS doctrine. Even Christ's chosen have need of repentance of future sin like Apostle John showed in 1 John 1. What Apostle John said there is against the doctrine of men called Once Saved, Always Saved. It would appear that you have yet to clearly understand man's OSAS doctrines.
I'm sorry Davy....
Has anyone ever told you that when you speak of persons being CHOSEN it does very much sound like you're of the reformed/calvinist faith.

So now I see what you mean.

Yes. God chose the Apostles.
God chose Moses.
God chose many...including Mary, for instance.

I fail to see the point here...and I don't mind telling you that I'm very bad at eschatology...so if you want to discuss eschatoloty it cannot be with me.

I'm sorry but I just didn't understand what you were stating....
 
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Davy

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I'm sorry Davy....
Has anyone ever told you that when you speak of persons being CHOSEN it does very much sound like you're of the reformed/calvinist faith.

The above is why I said you appear to not have truly understood what all man's OSAS doctrine is about. It is what Calvin believed about all believers, wrongly claiming that all believers are 'chosen'. Not what Jesus said, nor what Bible Scripture shows though.

So now I see what you mean.

Yes. God chose the Apostles.
God chose Moses.
God chose many...including Mary, for instance.

The way I interpret those having been 'chosen' is for our leadership. God chose leaders in The Gospel for the rest of us who have come to believe by their preaching (recall Romans 10:14)...

Rom 10:14-15
14 How then shall they call on Him in Whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in Him of Whom they have not heard?
and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"
KJV


The Greek word for "sent" (apostello) is where the word 'apostle' comes from. Remember Jesus said He 'sent' His Apostles into the world per John 17. It's a word pointing to the 'chosen' elect.


I fail to see the point here...and I don't mind telling you that I'm very bad at eschatology...so if you want to discuss eschatoloty it cannot be with me.

I'm sorry but I just didn't understand what you were stating....

It's not about that. It's about just using our common sense in the Bible Scriptures with God's help.

When Lord Jesus said that many are called, but few are chosen, that should get one's gears (brain) working as to how He meant that. He also gave other examples on that same matter when He spoke of those who have, to him shall be given even more in abundance, and for those who have not, even what they have shall be taken away. And about the laborers in the field that worked only 'one hour' but got paid the same as those who worked all day, is another example. And when He said that many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first, He was pointing to His chosen sent ones for the end of this world.

Even in Jesus' Messages to the seven Churches He ended with, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches;" which is making a distinction between those in the Church who have spiritual 'ears to hear' and those in the Church who do not (pointing to His parable in Matthew 13 of why He spoke to the multitudes in parables.)
 

GodsGrace

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The above is why I said you appear to not have truly understood what all man's OSAS doctrine is about. It is what Calvin believed about all believers, wrongly claiming that all believers are 'chosen'. Not what Jesus said, nor what Bible Scripture shows though.
I do believe that I truly understand about OSAS, which is known as Preservation of the Saints in the reformed/calvinist faith system.
And, yes, it is wrongly claimed.
We agree.

The way I interpret those having been 'chosen' is for our leadership. God chose leaders in The Gospel for the rest of us who have come to believe by their preaching (recall Romans 10:14)...
Correct.
Predestination IS in the NT.
But it ONLY refers to the PURPOSE or the METHOD by which one is saved.
So, yes, God can choose someone SPECIFICALLY for leadership.
He chose Jacob over the next in line, Esau.
We agree again.

Rom 10:14-15
14 How then shall they call on Him in Whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in Him of Whom they have not heard?
and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"
KJV


The Greek word for "sent" (apostello) is where the word 'apostle' comes from. Remember Jesus said He 'sent' His Apostles into the world per John 17. It's a word pointing to the 'chosen' elect.
Yes sir.
We agree again.

God SPECIFICALLY chose the Apostles.
A great misunderstanding of John's gospel where Jesus is specifically referring to the Apostles during His great prayer.


It's not about that. It's about just using our common sense in the Bible Scriptures with God's help.

When Lord Jesus said that many are called, but few are chosen, that should get one's gears (brain) working as to how He meant that. He also gave other examples on that same matter when He spoke of those who have, to him shall be given even more in abundance, and for those who have not, even what they have shall be taken away. And about the laborers in the field that worked only 'one hour' but got paid the same as those who worked all day, is another example. And when He said that many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first, He was pointing to His chosen sent ones for the end of this world.

Even in Jesus' Messages to the seven Churches He ended with, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches;" which is making a distinction between those in the Church who have spiritual 'ears to hear' and those in the Church who do not (pointing to His parable in Matthew 13 of why He spoke to the multitudes in parables.)
Agreed.
You mentioned Jesus speaking in parables and I'm hearing strange reasons on these Forums as to why Jesus spoke in parbles...as if, maybe, He DIDN'T want those around Him to understand the parable...but, of course, He did. It's a long way from heaven to here just to speak so that many will NOT understand.
 
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Davy

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You mentioned Jesus speaking in parables and I'm hearing strange reasons on these Forums as to why Jesus spoke in parbles...as if, maybe, He DIDN'T want those around Him to understand the parable...but, of course, He did. It's a long way from heaven to here just to speak so that many will NOT understand.

Well that, I'm not sure what you're going on about. Lord Jesus truly did not intend the multitudes to understand His parables, UNLESS... what? Jesus gave a condition for the multitude to be able to hear and understand. Did you note it?

Matt 13:10-17
10 And the disciples came, and said unto Him, "Why speakest Thou unto them in parables?"

11 He answered and said unto them, "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, 'By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:'

15
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
KJV


The multitudes could not understand because their hearts were hardened to where they were dull of hearing, and thus they closed their eyes (spiritual eyes), unless they should see and hear, and understand with their heart, and be converted, and Jesus would then heal them (i.e., their spirit). The Isaiah prophecy where this was written must be read and understood along with what Jesus said...

Isa 6:8-13
8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" 'Then said I, Here am I; send me.'

9 And He said, "Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

10
Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed."

11 Then said I, "Lord, how long?" And He answered, "Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.
13 But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof."
KJV


At the start of that Isaiah 6 Chapter, Isaiah experiences a vision of Heaven with God upon His Throne. Isaiah thought he had died, having seen GOD in Heaven on His Throne. He then sends Isaiah as His prophet to the people. Yet the above reveals that God Himself is Who has SPIRITUALLY BLINDED many of the peoples, with making their hearts fat (lethargic), their ears heavy, and closed their spiritual eyes, much like Apostle Paul showed about God have spiritually blinded the majority of Jews away from The Gospel so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles (Romans 11). And like Paul showed in Romans 11 that the Jew's blindness to The Gospel won't be removed by God until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, so also Isaiah 6:11-13 Isaiah asks how long this will be, and is told when those events of those verse happen, pointing to the very end of this world, and especially to the "tenth" mentioned there.

So very much, God BLINDED the multitudes that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 13. It was not given to them, nor were those to have ears to hears and eyes to see for this present time.
 

GodsGrace

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Well that, I'm not sure what you're going on about. Lord Jesus truly did not intend the multitudes to understand His parables, UNLESS... what? Jesus gave a condition for the multitude to be able to hear and understand. Did you note it?

Matt 13:10-17
10 And the disciples came, and said unto Him, "Why speakest Thou unto them in parables?"

11 He answered and said unto them, "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, 'By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:'

15
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
KJV


The multitudes could not understand because their hearts were hardened to where they were dull of hearing, and thus they closed their eyes (spiritual eyes), unless they should see and hear, and understand with their heart, and be converted, and Jesus would then heal them (i.e., their spirit). The Isaiah prophecy where this was written must be read and understood along with what Jesus said...

Isa 6:8-13
8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" 'Then said I, Here am I; send me.'

9 And He said, "Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

10
Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed."

11 Then said I, "Lord, how long?" And He answered, "Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.
13 But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof."
KJV


At the start of that Isaiah 6 Chapter, Isaiah experiences a vision of Heaven with God upon His Throne. Isaiah thought he had died, having seen GOD in Heaven on His Throne. He then sends Isaiah as His prophet to the people. Yet the above reveals that God Himself is Who has SPIRITUALLY BLINDED many of the peoples, with making their hearts fat (lethargic), their ears heavy, and closed their spiritual eyes, much like Apostle Paul showed about God have spiritually blinded the majority of Jews away from The Gospel so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles (Romans 11). And like Paul showed in Romans 11 that the Jew's blindness to The Gospel won't be removed by God until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, so also Isaiah 6:11-13 Isaiah asks how long this will be, and is told when those events of those verse happen, pointing to the very end of this world, and especially to the "tenth" mentioned there.

So very much, God BLINDED the multitudes that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 13. It was not given to them, nor were those to have ears to hears and eyes to see for this present time.
You know Davy,,,,I'm getting just a little tired of hearing this nonsense....
so excuse me for sounding a bit incredulous.

I'm not going to go over your tirade up there...showing that you understand LITTLE of why Jesus came here to earth.

There are reasons why Jesus spoke in parables.
Did no one ever teach them to you?

Here are the reasons:

1. Jesus wanted His listeners to PAY ATTENTION to what He was saying.
He wanted them to understand what He was teaching and He wanted the listeners to ACCEPT what He was teaching.
Those that understood a little bit could understand even more IF they wanted to.
IF they did not want to....even the little they understood was lost.
WHY?
Because they had no desire in their heart to hear or to believe what Jesus was teaching.

2. The listener could take the parable of Jesus and construct it around what THEY were living and experiencing.
He wanted them to take their own situation and be able to bring what Jesus was teaching into their own personal situation and life.
Not all of us are experiencing the same problem. He wanted the listeners to relate to the parable.

3. Jesus taught in parables because He wanted to teach some lessons that went against the OT LAW and did not want the authorities to know this...so He veiled His teachings. I'm sure you know about the trick questions Jesus was asked and how He was very careful to reply.
For instance...the question as to whether or not taxes should be paid.

4. Jesus spoke to some persons that were very intelligent and well-read and they were able to glean much from a parable.
He also had in His audience very simple persons and they ALSO were able to glean much from His parables.
Just like today....a 10 year old could read the NT and understand much and a scholar could read it and understand even more.

5. Jesus taught in parables because it made it easy to remember what the lesson was about.
It made the lesson real.


There are probably other reasons.....so easy to check it out these days....
but to say that Jesus was PURPOSEFULLY veiling so as to not let SOME persons understand is totally false.

Jesus died to erase our sins.
Jesus wanted to bring the Kingdom of God on earth...Let you will be done on earth, as it is in heaven.

Why believe something so incredibly nonsensical as to think that Jesus spoke so that He would NOT be understood??
 

GodsGrace

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Well that, I'm not sure what you're going on about. Lord Jesus truly did not intend the multitudes to understand His parables, UNLESS... what? Jesus gave a condition for the multitude to be able to hear and understand. Did you note it?

Matt 13:10-17
10 And the disciples came, and said unto Him, "Why speakest Thou unto them in parables?"

11 He answered and said unto them, "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, 'By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:'

15
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
KJV


The multitudes could not understand because their hearts were hardened to where they were dull of hearing, and thus they closed their eyes (spiritual eyes), unless they should see and hear, and understand with their heart, and be converted, and Jesus would then heal them (i.e., their spirit). The Isaiah prophecy where this was written must be read and understood along with what Jesus said...

Isa 6:8-13
8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" 'Then said I, Here am I; send me.'

9 And He said, "Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

10
Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed."

11 Then said I, "Lord, how long?" And He answered, "Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.
13 But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof."
KJV


At the start of that Isaiah 6 Chapter, Isaiah experiences a vision of Heaven with God upon His Throne. Isaiah thought he had died, having seen GOD in Heaven on His Throne. He then sends Isaiah as His prophet to the people. Yet the above reveals that God Himself is Who has SPIRITUALLY BLINDED many of the peoples, with making their hearts fat (lethargic), their ears heavy, and closed their spiritual eyes, much like Apostle Paul showed about God have spiritually blinded the majority of Jews away from The Gospel so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles (Romans 11). And like Paul showed in Romans 11 that the Jew's blindness to The Gospel won't be removed by God until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, so also Isaiah 6:11-13 Isaiah asks how long this will be, and is told when those events of those verse happen, pointing to the very end of this world, and especially to the "tenth" mentioned there.

So very much, God BLINDED the multitudes that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 13. It was not given to them, nor were those to have ears to hears and eyes to see for this present time.
God does NOT blind anyone Davy.

God wishes that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of HIM.

Acts 17:30-31
30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God
is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the
world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."


1 Timothy 2:3-4

3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who
desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


2 Peter 3:9
9"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."
 

Davy

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You know Davy,,,,I'm getting just a little tired of hearing this nonsense....
so excuse me for sounding a bit incredulous.

And you don't think your faulty belief on men's false doctrine of Once Saved, Always Saved isn't nonsense? If that's all you are going to do but just keep that false OSAS doctrine of men, regardless of the Bible Scripture proofs against it that I have shown you, then why... are you speaking to me?

And if all you can offer is slanders like your NONSENSE above, then I certainly have nothing else to say to you. Believe what you want.
 

Davy

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God does NOT blind anyone Davy.

Well that above proves you don't know your Bible that well...


Rom 11:7-8
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it,
and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
KJV

Rom 11:25
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;
that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
KJV

Thus you ought to study your Bible more before you call me a liar about what is written that I showed you.
 

GodsGrace

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And you don't think your faulty belief on men's false doctrine of Once Saved, Always Saved isn't nonsense? If that's all you are going to do but just keep that false OSAS doctrine of men, regardless of the Bible Scripture proofs against it that I have shown you, then why... are you speaking to me?

And if all you can offer is slanders like your NONSENSE above, then I certainly have nothing else to say to you. Believe what you want.
1. I wasn't discussing OSAS.
I don't believe OSAS.
It's not found anywhere in the NT or in the OT for that matter.
You must be getting me very mixed up with some other poster.

2. I was referring to your idea that Jesus spoke parables so that some might not understand.

Yes.
This is nonsense and I showed you why.

Maybe you could stop reading that bible all on your own and interpreting it the way YOU see fit.
 

GodsGrace

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Well that above proves you don't know your Bible that well...

Rom 11:7-8
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it,
and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
KJV

Rom 11:25
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;
that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
KJV

Thus you ought to study your Bible more before you call me a liar about what is written that I showed you.
Notice that Paul is speaking about the JEWS.

I'd get into this a bit more....but, look at this,,,YOU have ears that don't hear!!

Guess God doesn't want you to know.

I hope you understand that exegeting a verse is very important and that context DOES matter,
even though it wouldn't seem like it to some.

Any commentary will be of help to you...
unless you dislike those nasty scholars that really understand scripture.
 

Davy

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Notice that Paul is speaking about the JEWS.

Yes, that's obvious for anyone who actually reads what Paul said there. But you falsely claimed God does not blind ANYONE in your previous post.

And I can pretty much already tell that you don't know enough your Bible history about the Israelites to realize that the majority of Israelites NEVER USED THE TITLE OF 'JEW'.

The JEWISH historian, Flavius Josephus, who lived circa 100 A.D., said the title of JEW originated from the sole tribe of Judah. He said those who RETURNED to Jerusalem from their Babylon captivity, that is the title they took, as all that went captive with Judah and returned, meaning foreigners, also took that title of Jew with dwelling in Judea-Jerusalem. That did NOT... apply to the northern TEN TRIBES OF ISRAEL.

The ten northern tribes that dwelt in the northern portions of the holy land, and made up the MAJORITY of Israelites even back then, were no longer in the holy land when Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, took the JEWS captive to Babylon for seventy years. God had already scattered the ten northern tribes out of the holy land about 120 years prior. This is Bible history.


And here is the important part of that which RELATES DIRECTLY TO CHRIST'S CHURCH:

The JEWS at Jerusalem-Judea represent the "house of Judah" per Bible Scripture. Those represent ONLY the 3 tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, and a small remnant of the northern 10 tribes which left the north when Jeroboam king over the northern ten tribes setup gold calf idol worship in the north. Also included with Judah were the strangers that dwelt in the southern lands, like the Canaanite bondservants which Israel was not able to destroy. And that is who is there in the nation of Israel still to this day. The ten northern tribes of Israel, non-Jews, lost their heritage as part of Israel when God scattered, which He said would happen per His prophet Hosea.

So yes, the majority of JEWS rejected Lord Jesus as The Christ, and still do today.

But the ten scattered tribes captive to Assyria and lands of the Medes migrated westward from there, and crossed around the Black Sea, many of them becoming known as Caucasians having crossed through the Dariel Pass in the Caucasus Mountains east of the Black Sea, and trekked into Asia Minor and EUROPE. They became known as 3 specific groups, the Cimmerians, the Scythians, and the Sakkae. They would become the early founders of the western nations. Links to their later names were found in the Assyrian Tablets, and linguist professor Leroy Waterman at the University of Michigan in the 1930s translated several of those Assyrian Tablets to discover this.

Because many in the Church don't like to teach about that history specific to the seed of Israel, because they feel it might alienate the Gentile believer, that history and evidence is seldom mentioned in the Church. Yet it is Bible history, because God revealed He would cause the ten tribes to lose knowledge of their heritage as Israel, and scatter them into the 'wilderness', and let them have the full Baal idol worship they forgot Him for. And when it was time, God said He would speak softly to them, and give them a 'new covenant', and they would again become 'Ami' (My people), and the believing Gentiles with them.

So when you look at the history of the Western Christian Nations, you are seeing where God scattered the majority of the seed of the ten scattered tribes which came under The New Covenant Jesus Christ when they began to put their idols away in Asia Minor and Europe. Britain was first to believe The Gospel of Jesus Christ on a 'national scale'. That is what fulfilled God's prophecy to Jacob that his seed would become "a nation, and a company of nations" per Genesis 37, and that Joseph's son Ephraim would become "a multitude of nations" per Genesis 48. That was fulfilled in the Christian West.

With understanding that Biblical and European history, how many Israelites of the seed of the northern ten tribes do you think that involved with the Christian Church? The majority of the ten scattered tribes, and a remnant of the JEWS that were scattered to the West also which believed on Jesus Christ. This is why Apostle James addressed the 12 tribes scattered abroad in James 1:1. Even Josephus (100 A.D.) said in his day the ten tribes were scattered beyond Euphrates, and were a great number of people, too many to count.

After God had split the old nation of Israel per 1 Kings 11 forward, the northern ten tribe kingdom was called the "house of Israel". That title applied ONLY to the northern ten tribes under Jeroboam, king of Israel. The JEWS of the southern kingdom became known as the "house of Judah" as written.

When Lord Jesus said He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel, He was pointing to the ten scattered tribes, not to the JEWS. The majority of the JEWS at Jerusalem-Judea rejected Him, and thus The Gospel took hold elsewhere, but where? Among the peoples of Asia Minor and Europe, the Western Christian Nations, and that means the early Christian Church in the West as a majority of Israelites.

So next time you hear a preacher get up at the pulpit and claim all those of Israel are JEWS, just laugh inside, because that preacher doesn't know this Bible history, and that should be enough to make suspect any of his teaching on Bible history.
 

GodsGrace

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Yes, that's obvious for anyone who actually reads what Paul said there. But you falsely claimed God does not blind ANYONE in your previous post.

And I can pretty much already tell that you don't know enough your Bible history about the Israelites to realize that the majority of Israelites NEVER USED THE TITLE OF 'JEW'.

The JEWISH historian, Flavius Josephus, who lived circa 100 A.D., said the title of JEW originated from the sole tribe of Judah. He said those who RETURNED to Jerusalem from their Babylon captivity, that is the title they took, as all that went captive with Judah and returned, meaning foreigners, also took that title of Jew with dwelling in Judea-Jerusalem. That did NOT... apply to the northern TEN TRIBES OF ISRAEL.

The ten northern tribes that dwelt in the northern portions of the holy land, and made up the MAJORITY of Israelites even back then, were no longer in the holy land when Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, took the JEWS captive to Babylon for seventy years. God had already scattered the ten northern tribes out of the holy land about 120 years prior. This is Bible history.


And here is the important part of that which RELATES DIRECTLY TO CHRIST'S CHURCH:

The JEWS at Jerusalem-Judea represent the "house of Judah" per Bible Scripture. Those represent ONLY the 3 tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, and a small remnant of the northern 10 tribes which left the north when Jeroboam king over the northern ten tribes setup gold calf idol worship in the north. Also included with Judah were the strangers that dwelt in the southern lands, like the Canaanite bondservants which Israel was not able to destroy. And that is who is there in the nation of Israel still to this day. The ten northern tribes of Israel, non-Jews, lost their heritage as part of Israel when God scattered, which He said would happen per His prophet Hosea.

So yes, the majority of JEWS rejected Lord Jesus as The Christ, and still do today.

But the ten scattered tribes captive to Assyria and lands of the Medes migrated westward from there, and crossed around the Black Sea, many of them becoming known as Caucasians having crossed through the Dariel Pass in the Caucasus Mountains east of the Black Sea, and trekked into Asia Minor and EUROPE. They became known as 3 specific groups, the Cimmerians, the Scythians, and the Sakkae. They would become the early founders of the western nations. Links to their later names were found in the Assyrian Tablets, and linguist professor Leroy Waterman at the University of Michigan in the 1930s translated several of those Assyrian Tablets to discover this.

Because many in the Church don't like to teach about that history specific to the seed of Israel, because they feel it might alienate the Gentile believer, that history and evidence is seldom mentioned in the Church. Yet it is Bible history, because God revealed He would cause the ten tribes to lose knowledge of their heritage as Israel, and scatter them into the 'wilderness', and let them have the full Baal idol worship they forgot Him for. And when it was time, God said He would speak softly to them, and give them a 'new covenant', and they would again become 'Ami' (My people), and the believing Gentiles with them.

So when you look at the history of the Western Christian Nations, you are seeing where God scattered the majority of the seed of the ten scattered tribes which came under The New Covenant Jesus Christ when they began to put their idols away in Asia Minor and Europe. Britain was first to believe The Gospel of Jesus Christ on a 'national scale'. That is what fulfilled God's prophecy to Jacob that his seed would become "a nation, and a company of nations" per Genesis 37, and that Joseph's son Ephraim would become "a multitude of nations" per Genesis 48. That was fulfilled in the Christian West.

With understanding that Biblical and European history, how many Israelites of the seed of the northern ten tribes do you think that involved with the Christian Church? The majority of the ten scattered tribes, and a remnant of the JEWS that were scattered to the West also which believed on Jesus Christ. This is why Apostle James addressed the 12 tribes scattered abroad in James 1:1. Even Josephus (100 A.D.) said in his day the ten tribes were scattered beyond Euphrates, and were a great number of people, too many to count.

After God had split the old nation of Israel per 1 Kings 11 forward, the northern ten tribe kingdom was called the "house of Israel". That title applied ONLY to the northern ten tribes under Jeroboam, king of Israel. The JEWS of the southern kingdom became known as the "house of Judah" as written.

When Lord Jesus said He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel, He was pointing to the ten scattered tribes, not to the JEWS. The majority of the JEWS at Jerusalem-Judea rejected Him, and thus The Gospel took hold elsewhere, but where? Among the peoples of Asia Minor and Europe, the Western Christian Nations, and that means the early Christian Church in the West as a majority of Israelites.

So next time you hear a preacher get up at the pulpit and claim all those of Israel are JEWS, just laugh inside, because that preacher doesn't know this Bible history, and that should be enough to make suspect any of his teaching on Bible history.
You tried Davy.
But I can assure you that the above post is not for me.

However, it might be helpful to some reading along.

You sure do ASSUME a lot, don't you?

Let me leave you with this:

1. God desires that ALL come to salvation.
He does NOT hide Himself from anyone.
See Romans 1:20-22 or thereabouts.

2. Jesus INTENDED FOR ALL to understand what He was teaching.
At the beginning of His ministry, He tried to keep from stating plainly that He believed He was God --- for which He was killed, later on in His ministry.


Yeah. I'll try to read the bible a little more....
YOU do the same.

PS And what does "YOU FALSELY CLAIMED" mean?

HOW did I FALSELY CLAIM anything?
YOU are also claiming stuff...
so are you FALSELY CLAIMING it because I don't agree with you?

I posted exactly WHY Jesus spoke in parables.
Instead of giving me a history lesson I might or might not need...
how about just responding to my post??

Find out why Jesus spoke in parables and stop saying that God does NOT want everyone to come to know Him.