Can any of you link or share a good argument against FULL preterism?

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rwb

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1.) Do you believe (The Beast) of Revelation 13 will be a future literal human man, please explain?

The beast represents the domain of antichrists in the commerce of the world, in the government of the world, in the campaigns of the world, in the literature of the world, in the religions of the world, antichrists appear in aspects as hideous, and in a spirit as savage and blasphemous as the monsters depicted in this vision. Having one master (king/messenger of the bottomless pit) endowed with great power in the pursuit of moral rot & decay of everything and everyone under its power to corrupt and deceive. Its battle is spiritual against the saints/body of Christ/Church throughout the ages/generation after generation. It's not COMING, it's here, and has been waging a spiritual battle against Christ and His Kingdom since the dawn of man.

2.) Do you believe the (Two Witnesses) Revelation 11 will be future prophets returned in physical bodies, please explain?

Anyone proclaiming the gospel of the Kingdom of God through the power of the Spirit is a witness for Christ. "These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth." Olive trees representative of the Law and Prophets, two candlesticks representative of the Church sent out in the power of the Spirit. None shall be bodily resurrected before the last/seventh trumpet sounds and time given this earth to proclaim the gospel of the Kingdom of God shall be no longer. The bodily resurrection shall be for ALL the dead, resurrected either to immortality & incorruptible, or resurrected to damnation at the great white throne judgement to come on the last day of this age when the final trumpet begins to sound.
 

Truth7t7

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What exactly is your eschatological point of view? You loathe amillennialism, you deny being premillennial, that leaves post millennial? Do you believe that the world will eventually become Christianized and that the millennium will be an unknown long period of world righteousness and peace on earth after Christ comes again?
Its My Opinion You know Well What I Believe, We've Been Posting Together For 2+ Years, I Have Openly Posted My Beliefs Below "Numerous Times"

I believe Matthew Chapter 24 that Daniel's AOD is future, the 3 5 year great Tribulation is caused by Daniel's future AOD, Jesus Returns immediately after this future great tribulation in the resurrection of "All" that have lived, in fire and final judgement dissolving this earth by fire down to its very elements (The End)

The righteous enter the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem for eternity, the unsaved wicked are judged to the eternal Lake Of Fire, there won't be a 1,000 year millennial kingdom on this earth at the return of Jesus, its a fabricated man made fairy tale

I believe Daniel's (Little Horn) Paul's (Man Of Sin) John's (The Beast) are all the very same "future" evil human man described by many as (The Antichrist) I believe this evil human man will be worshipped by the entire unsaved world during the 3.5 year tribulation

I believe the (Two Witnesses) seen in Revelation chapter 11 will be literal prophets returned with physical bodies that die, that will lay in a physical street in Jerusalem upon this earth, as a literal unsaved world will celebrate their deaths exchanging gifts, after 3.5 literal days their bodies will be raised to heaven as the world watches, at this time the final hours of earth's existence unfold

I believe these (Two Witnesses) will bring literal plagues upon this literal earth as seen in Revelation 16:1-11, this will be a complete replay of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

There Ya Have It Again

Jesus Is The Lord
 

Truth7t7

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The beast represents the domain of antichrists in the commerce of the world, in the government of the world, in the campaigns of the world, in the literature of the world, in the religions of the world, antichrists appear in aspects as hideous, and in a spirit as savage and blasphemous as the monsters depicted in this vision. Having one master (king/messenger of the bottomless pit) endowed with great power in the pursuit of moral rot & decay of everything and everyone under its power to corrupt and deceive. Its battle is spiritual against the saints/body of Christ/Church throughout the ages/generation after generation. It's not COMING, it's here, and has been waging a spiritual battle against Christ and His Kingdom since the dawn of man.
I Disagree, You promote false standard reformed theology found no place in scripture

(The Beast) will be a literal human man that has a living body

Revelation 13:18KJV
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Daniel 7:11KJV
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Anyone proclaiming the gospel of the Kingdom of God through the power of the Spirit is a witness for Christ. "These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth." Olive trees representative of the Law and Prophets, two candlesticks representative of the Church sent out in the power of the Spirit. None shall be bodily resurrected before the last/seventh trumpet sounds and time given this earth to proclaim the gospel of the Kingdom of God shall be no longer. The bodily resurrection shall be for ALL the dead, resurrected either to immortality & incorruptible, or resurrected to damnation at the great white throne judgement to come on the last day of this age when the final trumpet begins to sound.
You promote standard reformed theology that opposes biblical truth seen below

The (Two Witnesses) will have literal physical bodies that die, they will lay in a literal steet in Jerusalem where Jesus was crucified

Your claim the literal seen is symbolic of the old and new testament and church witnessing is "Laughable" wave your magic reformed theology wand and the literal is gone, "Real Big Smiles"!

P.S. nothing in the scripture below describes a bodily resurrection taking place of the (Two Witnesses) as you falsely claim, they will be raised from the dead just as Tabitha and Lazaus were

Revelation 11:3-15KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
 
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rwb

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I Disagree, You promote false standard reformed theology found no place in scripture

You seem to be saying that ALL of Scripture, especially that which is prophetic is to be translated literally/materially/physically, except for "a thousand years"??? A thousand years doesn't appear to fit your manmade doctrines, so you simply pretend a/the thousand years are not recorded by the Apostle John in the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, and assign them to the minds of Reformed doctrines??? Sorry but your doctrine appears to come from your imagination much like Tim LaHaye's Left Behind series.
 

Truth7t7

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You seem to be saying that ALL of Scripture, especially that which is prophetic is to be translated literally/materially/physically, except for "a thousand years"??? A thousand years doesn't appear to fit your manmade doctrines, so you simply pretend a/the thousand years are not recorded by the Apostle John in the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, and assign them to the minds of Reformed doctrines??? Sorry but your doctrine appears to come from your imagination much like Tim LaHaye's Left Behind series.
Stop the red herring diversions

The scripture clearly teaches (The Beast) has a number of "A Man" and that his living body will be cast into the flaming lake of fire, your response is complete "Diversion"

The scripture clearly teaches the (Two Witnesses) have physical bodies that die and lay in a physical street dead in Jerusalem where Jesus was crucified, your response again is complete "Diversion" from the facts of scripture

You go even further in your false claims stating the (Two Witnesses) are claimed by myself to be resurrected a false claim, as they're raised from the dead just as Tabitha and Lazarus were

Respond to the scripture relating to dead bodies laying in a Jerusalem street, People in the world exchanging gifts celebrating their deaths?

What symbolic allegory do you have for that, Real Big Smiles!

Ken Gentry, Kim Riddlebarger "Help"!

Yes reformed theology waving the magic wand and smoke and mirrors is a big farce, removing literal scriptural truth through phony symbolic allegory
 
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rwb

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Stop the red herring diversions

The scripture clearly teaches (The Beast) has a number of "A Man" and that his living body will be cast into the flaming lake of fire, your response is complete "Diversion"

The scripture clearly teaches the (Two Witnesses) have physical bodies that die and lay in a physical street dead in Jerusalem where Jesus was crucified, your response again is complete "Diversion" from the facts of scripture

You go even further in your false claims stating the (Two Witnesses) are claimed by myself to be resurrected a false claim, as they're raised from the dead just as Tabitha and Lazarus were

Respond to the scripture relating to dead bodies laying in a Jerusalem street, People in the world exchanging gifts celebrating their deaths?

What symbolic allegory do you have for that, Real Big Smiles!

Ken Gentry, Kim Riddlebarger "Help"!

Yes reformed theology waving the magic wand and smoke and mirrors is a big farce, removing literal scriptural truth through phony symbolic allegory

What Scriptures are you referring to regarding the clear teaching the beast is A man, and the two witnesses are two men of physical flesh? How can there be A man "the beast" since John records beasts (plural) coming out of the earth and the sea? How can TWO olive trees and TWO candlesticks equal TWO physical men coming to life again, two + two = four, not two??? They are the prophets of Old and the Law, that led man of faith of Old to Christ, and the universal Church sent in the power of the Spirit which also leads New Covenant man of faith to Christ!

Were you taught this doctrine of yours, or does it come from what you think, your opinion? Because it most assuredly does not come from the written Word of God, which by the way is written to ALL of mankind, and not limited to any one generation alive when Christ comes again.

What Scriptures would you like me to respond to? So far you have given only your unbiblical opinions! You mock those coming with truth because you're blinded from seeing the truth through what you have probably been taught!
 

claninja

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It is a good point about how we are not in the New Earth and new heavens today.
It has been foretold the Sun and Moon light and the stars will go dark.
When Christ returns, His light will be the only light of the world.
Every eye will be drawn to the light of His coming.
It will be impossible to miss from all over the earth.

Isaiah 13:9-11
New King James Version

9 Behold, the day of the Lord comes,
Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger,
To lay the land desolate;
And He will destroy its sinners from it.
10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not give their light;
The sun will be darkened in its going forth,
And the moon will not cause its light to shine.


11 “I will punish the world for its evil,
And the wicked for their iniquity;
I will halt the arrogance of the proud,
And will lay low the haughtiness of the [a]terrible.


Psalm 104:19
He appointed the moon for seasons; The sun knows its going down.

Isaiah 24
21 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will punish on high the host of exalted ones,
And on the earth the kings of the earth.
22 They will be gathered together,
As prisoners are gathered in the [f]pit,
And will be shut up in the prison;
After many days they will be punished.
23 Then the moon will be disgraced
And the sun ashamed;
For the Lord of hosts will reign
On Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
And before His elders, gloriously.


Revelation 21:23
The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.

Revelation 22:5
There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.

Acts 2:20
The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.

Mark 13:24
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;

none of this has anything to do with dating the book of revelation
 

Truth7t7

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What Scriptures are you referring to regarding the clear teaching the beast is A man, and the two witnesses are two men of physical flesh? How can there be A man "the beast" since John records beasts (plural) coming out of the earth and the sea? How can TWO olive trees and TWO candlesticks equal TWO physical men coming to life again, two + two = four, not two??? They are the prophets of Old and the Law, that led man of faith of Old to Christ, and the universal Church sent in the power of the Spirit which also leads New Covenant man of faith to Christ!

Were you taught this doctrine of yours, or does it come from what you think, your opinion? Because it most assuredly does not come from the written Word of God, which by the way is written to ALL of mankind, and not limited to any one generation alive when Christ comes again.

What Scriptures would you like me to respond to? So far you have given only your unbiblical opinions! You mock those coming with truth because you're blinded from seeing the truth through what you have probably been taught!
Complete diversion once again because you have no answer

Yes you were provided very clear scripture showing (The Beast) will be "A Man" Rev 13:8, that he will be "Living" Rev 20:19, that "He Will Have A Body" Dan 7:11

You absolutely run from the fact of the (Two Witnesses) in Rev Chapter 11 "Their Dead Bodies" laying dead in a street where "Jesus Was Crucified"

No answer to the scripture because you run in diversion, it's that simple
 
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Truth7t7

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none of this has anything to do with dating the book of revelation
When Was the Book of Revelation Written?
By Wayne Jackson

Traditionally, the book of Revelation has been dated near the end of the first century, around A.D. 96. Some writers, however, have advanced the preterist (from a Latin word meaning “that which is past”) view, contending that the Apocalypse was penned around A.D. 68 or 69, and thus the thrust of the book is supposed to relate to the impending destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70).

A few prominent names have been associated with this position (e.g., Stuart, Schaff, Lightfoot, Foy E. Wallace Jr.), and for a brief time it was popular with certain scholars. James Orr has observed, however, that recent criticism has reverted to the traditional date of near A.D. 96 (1939, 2584). In fact, the evidence for the later date is extremely strong.

In view of some of the bizarre theories that have surfaced in recent times (e.g., the notion that all end-time prophecies were fulfilled with the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70), which are dependent upon the preterist interpretation, we offer the following.

External Evidence
The external evidence for the late dating of Revelation is of the highest quality.

Irenaeus
Irenaeus (A.D. 180), a student of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision “was seen not very long ago, almost in our own generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian” (Against Heresies 30). The testimony of Irenaeus, not far removed from the apostolic age, is first rate. He places the book near the end of Domitian’s reign, and that ruler died in A.D. 96. Irenaeus seems to be unaware of any other view for the date of the book of Revelation.

Clement of Alexandria
Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 155-215) says that John returned from the isle of Patmos “after the tyrant was dead” (Who Is the Rich Man? 42), and Eusebius, known as the “Father of Church History,” identifies the “tyrant” as Domitian (Ecclesiastical History III.23).

Even Moses Stuart, America’s most prominent preterist, admitted that the “tyrant here meant is probably Domitian.” Within this narrative, Clement further speaks of John as an “old man.” If Revelation was written prior to A.D. 70, it would scarcely seem appropriate to refer to John as an old man, since he would only have been in his early sixties at this time.

Victorinus
Victorinus (late third century), author of the earliest commentary on the book of Revelation, wrote:

When John said these things, he was in the island of Patmos, condemned to the mines by Caesar Domitian. There he saw the Apocalypse; and when at length grown old, he thought that he should receive his release by suffering; but Domitian being killed, he was liberated (Commentary on Revelation 10:11).

Jerome
Jerome (A.D. 340-420) said,

In the fourteenth then after Nero, Domitian having raised up a second persecution, he [John] was banished to the island of Patmos, and wrote the Apocalypse (Lives of Illustrious Men 9).

To all of this may be added the comment of Eusebius, who contends that the historical tradition of his time (A.D. 324) placed the writing of the Apocalypse at the close of Domitian’s reign (III.18). McClintock and Strong, in contending for the later date, declare that “there is no mention in any writer of the first three centuries of any other time or place” (1969, 1064). Upon the basis of external evidence, therefore, there is little contest between the earlier and later dates.

Internal Evidence
The contents of the book of Revelation also suggest a late date, as the following observations indicate.

The spiritual conditions of the churches described in Revelation chapters two and three more readily harmonize with the late date.

The church in Ephesus, for instance, was not founded by Paul until the latter part of Claudius’s reign: and when he wrote to them from Rome, A.D. 61, instead of reproving them for any want of love, he commends their love and faith (Eph. 1:15) (Horne 1841, 382).

Yet, when Revelation was written, in spite of the fact that the Ephesians had been patient (2:2), they had also left their first love (v. 4), and this would seem to require a greater length of time than seven or eight years, as suggested by the early date.

Another internal evidence of a late date is that this book was penned while John was banished to Patmos (1:9). It is well known that Domitian had a fondness for this type of persecution. If, however, this persecution is dated in the time of Nero, how does one account for the fact that Peter and Paul are murdered, yet John is only exiled to an island? (Eusebius III.18; II.25).

Then consider this fact. The church at Laodicea is represented as existing under conditions of great wealth. She was rich and had need of nothing (3:17). In A.D. 60, though, Laodicea had been almost entirely destroyed by an earthquake. Surely it would have required more than eight or nine years for that city to have risen again to the state of affluence described in Revelation.

The doctrinal departures described in Revelation would appear to better fit the later dating. For example, the Nicolaitans (2:6, 15) were a full-fledged sect at the time of John’s writing, whereas they had only been hinted at in general terms in 2 Peter and Jude, which were written possibly around A.D. 65-66.

Persecution for professing the Christian faith is evidenced in those early letters to the seven churches of Asia Minor. For instance, Antipas had been killed in Pergamum (2:13). It is generally agreed among scholars, however, that Nero’s persecution was mostly confined to Rome; further, it was not for religious reasons (Harrison 1964, 446).
 

IndianaRob

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It is another proof Christ will come back, not that He already did.
Scripture only ever talks about Him coming a second time
What’s your take on this verse?

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
 

rwb

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Complete diversion once again because you have no answer

Yes you were provided very clear scripture showing (The Beast) will be "A Man" Rev 13:8, that he will be "Living" Rev 20:19, that "He Will Have A Body" Dan 7:11

You absolutely run from the fact of the (Two Witnesses) in Rev Chapter 11 "Their Dead Bodies" laying dead in a street where "Jesus Was Crucified"

No answer to the scripture because you run in diversion, it's that simple

My reply was a diversion??? You provide zero biblical proof for your opinions! Why don't you give an answer to how the beast will be A man when John clearly writes of beasts (plural)? Why don't you give an answer for how 2+2=2 witnesses and not four? It appears that you are the one not running from but ignoring anything that questions your unbiblical doctrine?
 

Truth7t7

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My reply was a diversion??? You provide zero biblical proof for your opinions! Why don't you give an answer to how the beast will be A man when John clearly writes of beasts (plural)? Why don't you give an answer for how 2+2=2 witnesses and not four? It appears that you are the one not running from but ignoring anything that questions your unbiblical doctrine?
Answer The Direct Questions Below?

1.) What is meant by "Their Dead Bodies"?

2.) What is meant by "The Street Of The Great City, Where Also Our Lord Was Crucified"?

Revelation 11:8KJV
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
 

Scott Downey

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What’s your take on this verse?

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Reading more surrounding verses shows more context.
Earlier Jesus sends out His disciples just to those of Israel, gentiles specifically excluded.

Matthew 10
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven [c]is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, [d]cleanse the lepers, [e]raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. 9 Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, 10 nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But then a switch, where it talks about enduring to the end, Jesus is talking of bearing witness to the gentiles, and the things that will happen up to the end of this world. While some of these things did happen in the first century, more of them happened in the centuries following, and still are happening today

Specifically
v23, shows cities in the land of Israel will also be evangelized right up until the very end of the world.
v26, reveals the coming Day of judgement, when secrets out of men's hearts will be revealed.

This is how I think about these verses.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Matthew 10
16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless[f] as doves. 17 But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. 18 You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; 20 for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

21 “Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher, and a servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house [g]Beelzebub, how much more will they call those of his household! 26 Therefore do not fear them. For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Romans 2
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
 
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HealthyShape

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The passage in Revelation 17:10 suggests that it was written during the rule of the sixth king, Galba, who ruled 68–69 AD.
The five Roman rulers before him were Julius Cesar, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius and Nero (54–68).

Considering the context of the book, referring to the Nero's resurrection/return rumor, it was probably written shortly after Nero died.

Remarkably, the text also states that the seventh king would have a short reign. This seventh king was Otho, who ruled for only three months during 69 AD.
 

Scott Downey

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I was only addressing the date of revelation. Your interjection is a red herring.
Trying to say the date of revelation proves one thing or the other is the red herring.

Plenty of scriptural proof is found in the scriptures as to if Christ already came or not..
 

claninja

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Trying to say the date of revelation proves one thing or the other is the red herring.

Plenty of scriptural proof is found in the scriptures as to if Christ already came or not..
I never said it was proof. I was responding to a poster that said the date of revelation proves preterism false, when in fact the date itself does not prove preterism false or true. Not sure why you need to interject whataboutisms or red herrings......