Can any of you link or share a good argument against FULL preterism?

[rwb]

You have asked me that same question over and over and over and I keep telling you the same thing over and over and over.

Mark this down in your notes. I do not believe in a future coming of Christ. The second coming was at the resurrection Jesus and Jesus IS the resurrection and whoever believes in him WILL NOT see death.

How was the bodily resurrection of Christ, Christ coming again?

 

[HealthyShape]

By all means please disclose your opinion on who the 6th king is ruling, I don't play hide and seek games

I already did, in the post #317. It is you who does not want to answer direct question and who is playing "hide and seek".

For repetition:

According to the book itself, the things had to happen soon. The imminence is obvious throughout the text.

The passage in Revelation 17:10 suggests that it was written (or at least retrospectively situated) during the rule of the sixth king, Galba, who ruled 68–69 AD.

The five Roman rulers before him were Julius Cesar, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius and Nero (54–68). The seventh king was Otho and/or Vitellius, who ruled for only few months during 69 AD.

Considering also the reference to Nero's resurrection/return rumor, it was written after Nero died.

So, my guess is 68 or even 69 AD. Titus came and encircled Jerusalem in April 70 AD.

 

[HealthyShape]

I believe the writings of Irenaeus over your claims and opinions, it's that simple

You believe the tradition more than the text of the Bible. This is also simple.

 

[IndianaRob]

I'm glad to hear you do not agree with full preterits. When you say you are also against futurism, are you saying that when one believes Christ died on the cross and resurrected from the dead our physical body, like our born-again spirit possesses everlasting life?

Sort of. I believe we (people) are souls experiencing this life in an earthly body. I believe the Old Testament saints experienced this resurrection of the soul and since their earthly bodies were already dead, they received their glorified bodies. When we (after the cross) are ready to join them in heaven, Gods takes our souls out our bodies and puts our soul into our heavenly bodies and we join the others on heaven. When the soul leaves the body, the body falls to the earth and people will say we died.

 

[Truth7t7]

You have asked me that same question over and over and over and I keep telling you the same thing over and over and over.

Mark this down in your notes. I do not believe in a future coming of Christ. The second coming was at the resurrection Jesus and Jesus IS the resurrection and whoever believes in him WILL NOT see death.

OK you're a "Full Preterist" rightfully marked as such, I will mark that in my book with confidence

"Full Preterism" is a heretical belief and teaching as many consider, and I wouldn't disagree

 

[Truth7t7]

You believe the tradition more than the text of the Bible. This is also simple.

I dont believe your interpretation get over it, your a biased preterist that wants a pre 70AD fulfillment of scripture to suit your preterist need

 

[Truth7t7]

Sort of. I believe we (people) are souls experiencing this life in an earthly body. I believe the Old Testament saints experienced this resurrection of the soul and since their earthly bodies were already dead, they received their glorified bodies. When we (after the cross) are ready to join them in heaven, Gods takes our souls out our bodies and puts our soul into our heavenly bodies and we join the others on heaven. When the soul leaves the body, the body falls to the earth and people will say we died.

Your "Full Preterist" belief is in direct opposition to the Bible, you deny a future literal second coming of Jesus in the heavens, and a future bodily resurrection of the believer, and you can add to that the denial of a literal Hell in conscious torment after death for the unsaved wicked, this is the false doctrine of Annihilation taught by JW's and 7th Day Adventist

 

[claninja]

f +he book of Rev was wri++en in 95AD, +hen +he even+s of 70AD were his+orical. +he pre+eris+ believes +he even+s of 70AD are recorded in +he book of Rev. bu+ +he book of Rev says i+ is Prophe+ic. (Rev 1.3)

Its important to note several things:

1. 95ad was still within Jesus' generation
2. The visions found in revelation do contain historical events (revelation 1:19, revelation 5, revelation 12:5, etc...)
3. The events of revelation were to occur quickly because the time was near ( revelation 1:3).

nothing in your statement invalidates preterism. If revelation was written way beyond Jesus' generation, and contained language that the visions were for a far off and distant time, then you could completely invalidate preterism with that argument.

 

[HealthyShape]

I dont believe your interpretation get over it, your a biased preterist that wants a pre 70AD fulfillment of scripture to suit your preterist need

I do not care if you believe the Bible or not, this is a discussion forum, that is all.

I am just showing the text of the Bible and the interpretation that makes sense. You are biased to date the book in the way that contradicts the text - your choice. But the text is still there for everybody to see.

You are obviously unable to use the late tradition date of the writing for anything useful. You have no idea who are the kings John wrote about, what happened soon etc.

 

[rwb]

Sort of. I believe we (people) are souls experiencing this life in an earthly body. I believe the Old Testament saints experienced this resurrection of the soul and since their earthly bodies were already dead, they received their glorified bodies. When we (after the cross) are ready to join them in heaven, Gods takes our souls out our bodies and puts our soul into our heavenly bodies and we join the others on heaven. When the soul leaves the body, the body falls to the earth and people will say we died.

All people are living human souls when possessing mortal flesh & blood with the breath of life that is natural human spirit. Believer's spirits, unlike spirits in unbelievers, returns to God after our physical body dies, a living soul. Since the spirit in every man/woman who has been born again can never die, because we have Christ's promise that whosoever lives and believes in Him shall never die, our mortal flesh & blood being marred by sin is destined to death and is not eternal. No man (except Jesus) shall receive a glorified human body of flesh until every dead human body is resurrected from the grave in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds and time shall be no more.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground (flesh) and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (spirit); and man became a living soul.

After bodily death, our mortal flesh ceases to be a living soul because the spirit; breath of life has left our mortal body and returned to God.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust (flesh) return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (as living soul) shall return unto God who gave it.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The spirit of every born-again believer already has eternal/everlasting life that can never die. When our spirit returns to God after death of our mortal body, we, the spirit, of every born-again believer is still living souls in heaven, continuing to be the body of Christ in heaven but are as the angels of God without physical form. Believers will not be complete immortal & incorruptible living souls again until the resurrection and change that shall be on the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:46 (KJV) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1 Corinthians 15:47-50 (KJV) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Philippians 3:20-21 (KJV) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Not only does our natural spirit transform to a spiritual body of Christ in heaven after death, our natural mortal, corruptible flesh shall also be resurrected and changed from mortal to immortal & corruptible to incorruptible, once again complete living souls fit for life with Christ forever on the new earth when the last trumpet sounds that Christ has come again.

Old Testament saints could not ascend to heaven after death until after Christ came to defeat sin through His shed blood on the cross and conquer the power of death by resurrecting from the grave. The Old Covenant saints had to wait until Christ came to free them from bondage of the grave, which He did before He ascended to heaven. After rescuing the OC saints from the power of death, He gave gifts to the Church that the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven might be complete as the gospel is proclaimed unto all the earth.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Ephesians 4:11-13 (KJV) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

 

[KUWN]

Your keypad may be missing the letter t, but you are missing something far greater. God is Spirit, Jesus is God through His Spirit even after becoming flesh and blood. When we have the Spirit of God, we have God, the Holy Spirit within us, therefore we have Christ within us.

Joh 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Notice this verse says because Christ possessed the Spirit of God, through His Spirit the Kingdom of God has come. For that reason Christ sent His Spirit to be within us, that we too, through faith and power of His Spirit shall both know and enter the Kingdom of God (spiritually) the moment we believe.

Matthew 12:28 (KJV) But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

I've go+ +o +ell you +ha+ I am no+ sure why you are defending +he +rini+y, or +he +rini+y indwelling us. Wha+ does +ha+ have +o do wi+h +he Holy Spiri+ becoming Chris+ in 70AD.

Le+ me +ell you +ha+ +he Holy Spiri+ is no+ Chris+. +he Holy Spiri+ is one Member of +he +riune Godhead. Yes, +he +rini+y indwell's Church Age believers.

You said: God is Spirit, Jesus is God through His Spirit even after becoming flesh and blood.

Wha+ are you +rying +o say here?

My s+a+emen+ was simply +ha+ +he Holy Spiri+ did no+ become Chris+ in 70AD. We have +wo differen+ me+hods of in+erpre+a+ion, I use +he Li+eral me+hod of in+erpre+a+ion, and you seem +o use +he spiri+ual/me+aphoroic me+hod. Our differen+ is a+ +he in+erpre+ive me+hod. I consider +he spiri+ual me+hod +o be a very dangerous me+hod. +here is noway +o confirm one's spiri+ual i+erpre+a+ion.

 

[rwb]

I've go+ +o +ell you +ha+ I am no+ sure why you are defending +he +rini+y, or +he +rini+y indwelling us. Wha+ does +ha+ have +o do wi+h +he Holy Spiri+ becoming Chris+ in 70AD.

Le+ me +ell you +ha+ +he Holy Spiri+ is no+ Chris+. +he Holy Spiri+ is one Member of +he +riune Godhead. Yes, +he +rini+y indwell's Church Age believers.

You said: God is Spirit, Jesus is God through His Spirit even after becoming flesh and blood.

Wha+ are you +rying +o say here?

My s+a+emen+ was simply +ha+ +he Holy Spiri+ did no+ become Chris+ in 70AD. We have +wo differen+ me+hods of in+erpre+a+ion, I use +he Li+eral me+hod of in+erpre+a+ion, and you seem +o use +he spiri+ual/me+aphoroic me+hod. Our differen+ is a+ +he in+erpre+ive me+hod. I consider +he spiri+ual me+hod +o be a very dangerous me+hod. +here is noway +o confirm one's spiri+ual i+erpre+a+ion.

Could you be more specific? What, using the verses I quoted did I interpret spiritually? Where did I say the Holy Spirit BECAME Christ in 70AD? Jesus was born a man through the power of the Holy Spirit in Him. He did not have a father of flesh and blood; He is the only begotten Son of God. As God's Son, He is God, who is, who was and is to come.

1 John 5:7 (KJV) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

1 John 5:8 (KJV) And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

John 1:1-2 (KJV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.

John 1:14 (KJV) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

[IndianaRob]

How was the bodily resurrection of Christ, Christ coming again?

Because his death and resurrection fulfilled all Old Testament prophecies. He brought the city who’s builder and maker is God… the city all the Old Testament believers wanted but couldn’t have until the cross. That city is heavenly Jerusalem which unfortunately the corporate church has been led to believe isn’t here yet.

 

[HealthyShape]

Because his death and resurrection fulfilled all Old Testament prophecies. He brought the city who’s builder and maker is God… the city all the Old Testament believers wanted but couldn’t have until the cross. That city is heavenly Jerusalem which unfortunately the corporate church has been led to believe isn’t here yet.

So, what with the coming of the Lord people in the New Testament prophesied to happen in their generation, but after the resurrection?

 

[Truth7t7]

I do not care if you believe the Bible or not, this is a discussion forum, that is all.

I am just showing the text of the Bible and the interpretation that makes sense. You are biased to date the book in the way that contradicts the text - your choice. But the text is still there for everybody to see.

You are obviously unable to use the late tradition date of the writing for anything useful. You have no idea who are the kings John wrote about, what happened soon etc.

I'm well aware the apostolic church fathers taught the book of revelation was written during the reign of Emperor Domitian 81-96AD and I receive their teachings over your biased preterist beliefs, I disagree with your interpretation, you can repeat it 1,000 times more to my disagreement

 

[Truth7t7]

Because his death and resurrection fulfilled all Old Testament prophecies.

No it hasn't, the "Future" day of the Lord is seen throughout the old and new testament and it's a future event unfulfilled to mention just one

Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[rwb]

Because his death and resurrection fulfilled all Old Testament prophecies. He brought the city who’s builder and maker is God… the city all the Old Testament believers wanted but couldn’t have until the cross. That city is heavenly Jerusalem which unfortunately the corporate church has been led to believe isn’t here yet.

The cross and resurrection began to fulfill all that was foretold would come to pass when the Messiah would come. Just as the prophets of Old foretell Christ was born of the virgin, His sacrificial blood made remission for sin, and His resurrection proved He has power over death. The prophets foretell of Christ sending His Spirit to people of faith, not Jews only but to ALL people who believe. This prophesy was fulfilled at Pentecost and is still being fulfilled as new believers are born again of His Spirit.

Yes, you are so right! Believers don't have to wait for the city whose builder and maker is God! By His death and resurrection Christ has opened the gates of the holy city in heaven. None could go there until Christ came to prepare and show His people the way. Listen to the words written to the Hebrew saints.

Hebrews 12:22-24 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

The confusion for the Church is believing heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God will be a physical kingdom that Christ will establish when He comes again. Looking for a physical, material kingdom on this earth is why the Pharisee's of Old did not believe Christ is the promised Messiah foretold to come. You are correct in understanding that believers enter into the Kingdom of God, but I wonder if you understand that the Kingdom of God in heaven is a spiritual Kingdom, that is not now, nor shall it ever be of this earth. Being a spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven the only way faithful saints might enter into His Kingdom is through spiritual re-birth. We must be born again. And the way man is born again is through His Spirit in us. The only way for man to both know and enter the Kingdom of God in heaven is through the Spirit of Christ.

I am amazed at how clearly Old Testament saints understood the significance of the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven and fixed their eyes above and not on this earth. They understood the city that God had prepared for them was not of this world. They weren't thinking of physical land of Canaan, the promised land, but died in faith desiring something far greater, having no desire to return to the country of promise on this earth.

Hebrews 11:8-10 (KJV) By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Hebrews 11:11-12 (KJV) Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

Hebrews 11:13-16 (KJV) These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

 

[HealthyShape]

I'm well aware the apostolic church fathers taught the book of revelation was written during the reign of Emperor Domitian 81-96AD and I receive their teachings over your biased preterist beliefs, I disagree with your interpretation, you can repeat it 1,000 times more to my disagreement

Church fathers were not inspired, did not know much and contradicted each other often. And Irenaeus just repeated what he heard, in this regard.

The earliest full manuscript of Irenaeus is from the 7th century and it is just Latin translation. Earliest Greek manuscript is from the 10th century.

As reformers said - church fathers may be useful, but we reject them when they contradict the teachings of Scriptures. John, Paul, Peter, James etc. are more than Polycarp or Irenaeus.

 

[HealthyShape]

Q: Without any theological bias, just reading the text of the New Testament, what is the most objective eschatological view - preterism, historicism or futurism?

AI answer:
Short answer: preterism is the most textually immediate and least speculative reading of the New Testament’s eschatological passages; futurism is the most speculative; historicism lies between but requires broad, long-range correlations.

... (long introductions to each eschatological view left out)...

Why preterism is the most objective under a “read-the-text-only” rule:

• The New Testament repeatedly uses near‑term language (“soon,” “near,” “this generation,” “at hand”) and addresses contemporary crises of first‑century readers. Assigning those phrases to first‑century fulfillments adheres closely to authorial intent and the plain sense of the text without importing later historical constructs or distant future speculation.
• When restraint is the guiding principle (don’t add chronological scaffolding beyond what the text gives), preterist readings minimize extra‑textual assumptions.

----

Interesting. As the use of AI will grow, it may change how people view eschatology, if they will ask similar questions.

 

[Truth7t7]

Interesting. As the use of AI will grow, it may change how people view eschatology, if they will ask similar questions.

No need to use AI, it's nothing more than mans programmed opinion

It's a good thing we have the actual writings of the Apostolic Church Fathers

Preterism is a farce in false teaching IMHO and it ain't changing anytime soon