26 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

[Spiritual Israelite]

Davy, I tend agree with your premill position, but probably consider the only way to debate the amill position is using scripture.

Correct. We're not going to be convinced of anything by his constant personal insults.

The early church fathers were after all simply believers like you and I, who could be, and would be incorrect often in their walk, like us. From my shortish look at the arguments put forward, there seems to be a number of scriptures that may dispute the amill view. It'd be a long discussion, im not sure I could devote time to currently.

How do you interpret the following passage. Do you agree with his interpretation of it?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[Wish-it]

Correct. We're not going to be convinced of anything by his constant personal insults.


How do you interpret the following passage. Do you agree with his interpretation of it?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

1. I endeavor to take all the scriptures applicable to a particular subject to see the predominate theme.
2. I consider whether there is a timing issue between them, ie is one scripture in a different time period to the other scripture
3. Is there a gap in the reading of the information supplied.
4. Am I letting my prior knowledge from the many available sources of a subject interfering with new knowledge God may be trying to teach me.
5. I look at the Greek, Hebrew etc of the texts.
6. Firstly and most importantly, I ask the Holy Spirit to tell me. Jer 33.3

In answer to the specific text you asked about it is a curly one, but i tend to consider it in the same light as Zech 9. It seems it is talking about two different events in the same section of scripture, similar to the Jewish people considered the Messiah was coming to rule the world and save them, but failed to see the baby in the manger and His death.
The Holy Spirit is our helper, our guide, our teacher.
I dont spend much time on the forefathers, history, videos, commentaries etc. Scripture and His Spirit are it.
Sorry for rabbiting on.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

1. I endeavor to take all the scriptures applicable to a particular subject to see the predominate theme.
2. I consider whether there is a timing issue between them, ie is one scripture in a different time period to the other scripture
3. Is there a gap in the reading of the information supplied.
4. Am I letting my prior knowledge from the many available sources of a subject interfering with new knowledge God may be trying to teach me.
5. I look at the Greek, Hebrew etc of the texts.
6. Firstly and most importantly, I ask the Holy Spirit to tell me. Jer 33.3

In answer to the specific text you asked about it is a curly one, but i tend to consider it in the same light as Zech 9. It seems it is talking about two different events in the same section of scripture, similar to the Jewish people considered the Messiah was coming to rule the world and save them, but failed to see the baby in the manger and His death.
The Holy Spirit is our helper, our guide, our teacher.
I dont spend much time on the forefathers, history, videos, commentaries etc. Scripture and His Spirit are it.
Sorry for rabbiting on.

I appreciate that you try to be thorough and I fully agree we should rely on the Holy Spirit for understanding, but you didn't answer my question about how you interpret 2 Peter 3:10-13. You say you think it is about two events, but I don't know what you mean by that.

 

[Wish-it]

I appreciate that you try to be thorough and I fully agree we should rely on the Holy Spirit for understanding, but you didn't answer my question about how you interpret 2 Peter 3:10-13. You say you think it is about two events, but I don't know what you mean by that.

The weight of scripture (in my view) appears to say there is a day the Lord will return for us, and at some point after that the will be a judgment and then a new heaven and new earth. That is the point in time, when the first heaven and first earth will pass away Rev 21.1.
My NIV says But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. (Full Stop) The heavens will disappear with a roar, etc.
The Greek seems to say "in which".
In a case like this i tend to lean to what i consider is the greater body of scripture describing these as two separate events.
Hopefully always being open to new inspiration.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The weight of scripture (in my view) appears to say there is a day the Lord will return for us, and at some point after that the will be a judgment and then a new heaven and new earth. That is the point in time, when the first heaven and first earth will pass away Rev 21.1.
My NIV says But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. (Full Stop) The heavens will disappear with a roar, etc.
The Greek seems to say "in which".
In a case like this i tend to lean to what i consider is the greater body of scripture describing these as two separate events.
Hopefully always being open to new inspiration.

Where is there any indication in the text itself that it's in relation to two events? Do you think the following is talking about two events?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

Would you agree that this is talking about the day that Jesus returns? Scripture does say He is coming like a thief, right (Matt 24:42-44, Rev 16:15)? This is talking about "sudden destruction" occurring immediately upon the arrival of the unexpected day of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night and that those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape" it. Would you agree? If so, then wouldn't that mean the destruction that Peter described in 2 Peter 3:10-12 will occur immediately upon the arrival of the unexpected day of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night? There's no reason to think that Paul and Peter were writing about two different days of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night, right?

 

[Wish-it]

Where is there any indication in the text itself that it's in relation to two events? Do you think the following is talking about two events?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

Would you agree that this is talking about the day that Jesus returns? Scripture does say He is coming like a thief, right (Matt 24:42-44, Rev 16:15)? This is talking about "sudden destruction" occurring immediately upon the arrival of the unexpected day of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night and that those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape" it. Would you agree? If so, then wouldn't that mean the destruction that Peter described in 2 Peter 3:10-12 will occur immediately upon the arrival of the unexpected day of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night? There's no reason to think that Paul and Peter were writing about two different days of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night, right?

 

[Wish-it]

Where is there any indication in the text itself that it's in relation to two events? Do you think the following is talking about two events?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

Would you agree that this is talking about the day that Jesus returns? Scripture does say He is coming like a thief, right (Matt 24:42-44, Rev 16:15)? This is talking about "sudden destruction" occurring immediately upon the arrival of the unexpected day of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night and that those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape" it. Would you agree? If so, then wouldn't that mean the destruction that Peter described in 2 Peter 3:10-12 will occur immediately upon the arrival of the unexpected day of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night? There's no reason to think that Paul and Peter were writing about two different days of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night, right?

To me, Rev 16.15 is the Lords coming and coincides with Dan 2.44 and Rev 19.11+. (abd possibly around Dan 11.45.) The Lord returning with us to break up the Rev 16 battle, and its probably also Ezek 38,39, and Zech 12 to 14 as well. The timing between our meeting the Lord in the air and returning to conquer the AC and his armies is vaque at this stage for me. But the destruction i consider localised, not world wide and so therefore not all encompassing at that time. From there I agree with a Rev 20 explanation the 1000 years etc, then judgment, then new heaven new earth-ie total destruction.
Maybe give an explanation of your overview.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

To me, Rev 16.15 is the Lords coming and coincides with Dan 2.44 and Rev 19.11+. (abd possibly around Dan 11.45.) The Lord returning with us to break up the Rev 16 battle, and its probably also Ezek 38,39, and Zech 12 to 14 as well. The timing between our meeting the Lord in the air and returning to conquer the AC and his armies is vaque at this stage for me. But the destruction i consider localised, not world wide and so therefore not all encompassing at that time. From there I agree with a Rev 20 explanation the 1000 years etc, then judgment, then new heaven new earth-ie total destruction.
Maybe give an explanation of your overview.

Can you please address what I said in post #105 first before moving on to other scriptures? How do you reconcile your doctrine with what is written in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 which indicate that all unbelievers will be destroyed by fire when Jesus comes as a thief in the night? You are trying to say those passages are about localized destruction? That is clearly not the case.

Why would you want to base your doctrine on scriptures that are contained within highly symbolic books instead of scriptures like 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-13 that are literal and straightforward? We should use clear scripture to help understand more difficult scriptures found in books like Ezekiel, Zechariah, Daniel and Revelation.

 

[Wish-it]

Can you please address what I said in post #105 first before moving on to other scriptures? How do you reconcile your doctrine with what is written in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 which indicate that all unbelievers will be destroyed by fire when Jesus comes as a thief in the night? You are trying to say those passages are about localized destruction? That is clearly not the case.

Why would you want to base your doctrine on scriptures that are contained within highly symbolic books instead of scriptures like 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-13 that are literal and straightforward? We should use clear scripture to help understand more difficult scriptures found in books like Ezekiel, Zechariah, Daniel and Revelation.

I had answered it in that i consider there is probably a gap in the verses. Similar to Dan 9.27 view by many.
In respect to the books of Ezek. Zech, Dan, Rev, I dont consider them not to be straight forward, I tend to think of the Old Testament Books giving the answers to the New Testament questions. Where did Jesus and the apostles go for answers. The OT. I see the OT a bit like parables, some see, some dont.
Many tend to quote NT scriptures almost exclusively, and often have little to no knowledge of the scriptures from the OT in defense of their argument.
Im not including you in this!!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I had answered it in that i consider there is probably a gap in the verses.

But, there is no indication of that whatsoever in the text. This is not an acceptable response to me. How are you coming to that conclusion from what is actually written there in 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12? Do you deny that the destruction that Peter describes is global and occurs upon the arrival of the unexpected day of the Lord?

Similar to Dan 9.27 view by many.

There is no gap between the 69th and 70th weeks. This is unacceptable for people to insert gaps into biblical timelines where they don't belong.

In respect to the books of Ezek. Zech, Dan, Rev, I dont consider them not to be straight forward, I tend to think of the Old Testament Books giving the answers to the New Testament questions.

You have it the wrong way around. The New Testament was written in order to shine light on the Old Testament. How can you think that books that undeniably contain a good amount of symbolism are straightforward? Do you think passages like 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 are straightforward? I certainly do. They talk about mass destruction occurring upon the arrival of the day of the Lord that comes unexpectedly like a thief in the night. That's quite straightforward. The only thing that needs to be discerned there is what the day of the Lord is, but we know that Jesus will be coming as a thief in the night and His second coming is the topic that is being covered. So, it's talking about the day that He comes. He Himself said that no one knows the day or hour that He will come (Matt 24:36, Matt 25:13) and that He will come as a thief (Matt 24:42-44, Rev 16:15).

Where did Jesus and the apostles go for answers. The OT. I see the OT a bit like parables, some see, some dont.

No, they gave the answers as to what the OT is all about. That's what the NT does for us.

Many tend to quote NT scriptures almost exclusively, and often have little to no knowledge of the scriptures from the OT in defense of their argument.
Im not including you in this!!

The NT quotes many OT scriptures and tells us the meaning of them. I don't understand your viewpoint on this at all.

 

[Wish-it]

But, there is no indication of that whatsoever in the text. This is not an acceptable response to me. How are you coming to that conclusion from what is actually written there in 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12? Do you deny that the destruction that Peter describes is global and occurs upon the arrival of the unexpected day of the Lord?


There is no gap between the 69th and 70th weeks. This is unacceptable for people to insert gaps into biblical timelines where they don't belong.


You have it the wrong way around. The New Testament was written in order to shine light on the Old Testament. How can you think that books that undeniably contain a good amount of symbolism are straightforward? Do you think passages like 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 are straightforward? I certainly do. They talk about mass destruction occurring upon the arrival of the day of the Lord that comes unexpectedly like a thief in the night. That's quite straightforward. The only thing that needs to be discerned there is what the day of the Lord is, but we know that Jesus will be coming as a thief in the night and His second coming is the topic that is being covered. So, it's talking about the day that He comes. He Himself said that no one knows the day or hour that He will come (Matt 24:36, Matt 25:13) and that He will come as a thief (Matt 24:42-44, Rev 16:15).


No, they gave the answers as to what the OT is all about. That's what the NT does for us.


The NT quotes many OT scriptures and tells us the meaning of them. I don't understand your viewpoint on this at all.

But everytime Jesus and the apostles answered a question the searched, knew and quoted the OT as replies. The OT i find has given so many answers to my own questions. Isaiah 46.10 I make known the end from the beginning.
How would you describe yourself, id consider myself premill, post trib, futurist, if I had to.

 

[WPM]

But everytime Jesus and the apostles answered a question the searched, knew and quoted the OT as replies. The OT i find has given so many answers to my own questions. Isaiah 46.10 I make known the end from the beginning.
How would you describe yourself, id consider myself premill, post trib, futurist, if I had to.

Why did you avoid his questions?

 

[Wish-it]

Why did you avoid his questions?

I thought id explained my position in previous posts, but happy to answer any you think might be missed.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But everytime Jesus and the apostles answered a question the searched, knew and quoted the OT as replies. The OT i find has given so many answers to my own questions

I'm talking about the many times that Jesus and the NT authors quoted OT scripture and explained what it means.

. Isaiah 46.10 I make known the end from the beginning.
How would you describe yourself, id consider myself premill, post trib, futurist, if I had to.

I'm amill, post-trib. When it comes to the book of Revelation I'd describe my view as mostly idealist. But, I would not describe my overall view as fitting completely under the futurist, preterist, historicist or idealist categories. It's a bit of a mix of all of them. I find the preterist and futurist views to be too extreme and unbalanced.

 

[Wish-it]

I'm talking about the many times that Jesus and the NT authors quoted OT scripture and explained what it means.


I'm amill, post-trib. When it comes to the book of Revelation I'd describe my view as mostly idealist. But, I would not describe my overall view as fitting completely under the futurist, preterist, historicist or idealist categories. It's a bit of a mix of all of them. I find the preterist and futurist views to be too extreme and unbalanced.

I'd consider myself futuristic, not just with the book of Revelation, but in many cases all of the prophets, Dan, ezek, jer, plus the minors. I'd recommend everyone reading those books as future, its incredible.
Even Dan chapters 2, 7,8, 11. The same nations in that time are exactly the same nations prominent now, coincidence, I dont think so.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'd consider myself futuristic, not just with the book of Revelation, but in many cases all of the prophets, Dan, ezek, jer, plus the minors.

The book of Revelation is not just a futurist book. Look at this verse...

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.

John was told to write about things that occurred in the past, as he did in Revelation 2 and 3 regarding things that people in those seven churches had done or had experienced in the past, and as he did in Revelation 12:5 when referring to Christ's birth and ascension and so on. And he was told to write about things that were happening at the time he was writing the book, like he did when writing about things that were currently happening in the seven churches. And he was told to write about things that would happen after that. So, it's about not just about the future, but also about the past, present and after that up until the future second coming of Christ. Putting such a narrow scope on the book, as both futurists and preterists do, takes away from its relation and significance for all believers in the New Testament era, in my opinion.

I'd recommend everyone reading those books as future, its incredible.

I'll bite my tongue on this one. I'll just say I disagree and leave it at that.

Even Dan chapters 2, 7,8, 11. The same nations in that time are exactly the same nations prominent now, coincidence, I dont think so.

Daniel 8 specifically refers to Media-Persian and Greek kings and kingdoms (Daniel 8:20-21). I don't know how anyone could think those are not references to the ancient Media-Persian and Greek empires that came into power after the fall of the ancient Babylonian empire.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I thought id explained my position in previous posts, but happy to answer any you think might be missed.

How about giving a clear interpretation of these passages that I had referenced. How exactly do you interpret these passages?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

I know before that you talked about 2 Peter 3:10-13 as two events, but you didn't really expand on that in any kind of clear detail at all. Can you tell me exactly where there is any indication of two events in that passage? When do you think that the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night? Do you believe that "sudden destruction" will occur upon its arrival from which those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape" as Paul indicated? Do you believe that destruction will be global as Peter indicated?

 

[Wish-it]

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.

How about giving a clear interpretation of these passages that I had referenced. How exactly do you interpret these passages?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

This passage is consider applies to the period of Rev 19.11+ There will be a time in the period preceding his coming that there will be peace and safety. And they won't escape, as stated in Rev 19. 17++.
And all the AC, false prophet, generals, soldiers etc will not escape.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This passage is consider applies to the period of Rev 19.11+ There will be a time in the period preceding his coming that there will be peace and safety. And they won't escape, as stated in Rev 19. 17++.
And all the AC, false prophet, generals, soldiers etc will not escape.

Why did you not also quote 2 Peter 3:10-13 from my post which gives further information about that event? That passage makes it clear that the destruction that will occur when Jesus returns will be global.

You refer to "the AC, false prophet, generals, soldiers etc" not escaping. Look at this passage...

Revelation 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”

John expands Christ's wrath to be not only against the "kings,...captains,...mighty men" and those who sit on horses but on "all people, free and slave, both small and great". So, it's all inclusive with no exceptions. With the context being in relation to unbelievers and not believers, of course. No unbelievers anywhere will escape His wrath when He comes. Passages like Matthew 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-37, Luke 21:34-36, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 make that clear.

 

[WPM]

I thought id explained my position in previous posts, but happy to answer any you think might be missed.

He asked: How are you coming to that conclusion from what is actually written there in 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12?