Biblical proof that we the New Testament Church are true Israel today

[Jay Ross]

Certainly. But I'm in the company of 50 recognized unanimous translators.

You're not.

Have you contacted any of these 50 translators to inform them of their error?

If not, why not? If so, what was their explanation?

Do you know which translators are still alive today?

It will certainly aid me in letting them know about their errors in conveying the context that is stil in the original texts.

 

[covenantee]

Do you which translators are still alive today?

It will certainly aid me in letting them know about their errors in conveying the context that is stil in the original texts.

Try Google.

 

[Earburner]

I tell you, 2 and 3 are the same. That is the moment of God being all in all. Which was before the foundation of the world, then made manifest at His coming, but each one in his own order.

I understand your meaning of Christ's return soon after his mortal death. You are implying that to be his 2nd and final coming.

Concerning items 2 and 3, please see my scripture references in my edited post #57.
Are your saying that we are to understand the "consuming" "flames" of "fire" of Luke 17: 28-30 and 2 Thes. 1:7-10, and even 2 Peter 3:10-13 are about the fire of the Holy Spirit, and nothing else more than that?
I disagree.

From the Amillennial view, even the scriptures about symbolic Gog and Magog are just another description of the scripture references I listed above.
Rev. 20
[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
[7] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
[8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
[9] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and FIRE came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
See also Heb. 12:18-29.

 

[brightfame52]

A Gentile is said in this text to be made a true Israelite. They are said to be “fellowcitizens” – a citizen of believing Israel. Obviously believing Gentiles do not become natural citizens of Israel, so this must mean spiritual citizens of Israel

Amen I agree

 

[Earburner]

Amen I agree

Umm. I think the equation in post #64 of who becomes what and when sounds a little confusing.
Your thoughts are correct.
I am just adding more detail:
Through faith in Jesus, BOTH Jews and Gentiles become New creatures, being no longer of either sorts (Jew or Gentile).
In other words, those who HAVE spiritually become New creatures (born again), they are NOW of the NEW heavenly Jerusalem/Israel.

 

[ScottA]

Get a life!

 

[WPM]

Umm. I think the equation in post #64 of who becomes what and when sounds a little confusing.
Your thoughts are correct.
I am just adding more detail:
Through faith in Jesus, BOTH Jews and Gentiles become New creatures, being no longer of either sorts (Jew or Gentile).
In other words, those who HAVE spiritually become New creatures (born again), they are NOW of the NEW heavenly Jerusalem/Israel.

But naturally, men are still either Jew or Gentile. But Scripture makes clear: neither avails anything spiritually. God does not remove our natural heritage upon salvation. It just doesn't merit anything.

 

[Earburner]

But naturally, men are still either Jew or Gentile. But Scripture makes clear: neither avails anything spiritually. God does not remove our natural heritage upon salvation. It just doesn't merit anything.

God makes no distinction, variance, favoritism or "difference between" who is a Jew and who is Gentile.
I pray that "born again" Christians would remember NEW TESTAMENT scripture better than they do, and stop peddaling the DEAD and VOID OC. promises about the Jerusalem that now is.
Rom. 10
[12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord [Jesus] over all is rich unto all that CALL upon him.

Most Christians do not know or percieve the severity of what happened in the 70th week, which was Jesus' week, and the results of that week played out in 70AD, as revealed in KJV Dan. 9:27.

[27] And he [Jesus] shall confirm the [New] covenant with many for one week [3.5+3.5=7.0 yrs.]: and in the midst of the week [first 3.5 years] he [His Sacrifice] shall cause the [temple] sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate [destroyed/void of God], even until the consummation [the end of all time], and that determined [verse 24] shall be poured upon the desolate [Acts 3:17, 10:45].

 

[WPM]

God makes no distinction, variance favoritism or "difference between" who is a Jew and who is Gentile.
I wish "born again" Christians would remember NEW TESTAMENT scripture, and stop peddaling the DEAD and VOID OC. promises about the Jerusalem that now is.
Rom. 10
[12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord [Jesus] over all is rich unto all that CALL upon him.

I agree, spiritually. But we still have a natural birthright, citizenship, heritage, DNA, and passport.

• Do you not have natural citizenship?
• Do you not have a passport?

 

[ScottA]

I understand your meaning of Christ's return soon after his mortal death. You are implying that to be his 2nd and final coming.

Concerning items 2 and 3, please see my scripture references in my edited post #57.
Are your saying that we are to understand the "consuming" "flames" of "fire" of Luke 17: 28-30 and 2 Thes. 1:7-10, and even 2 Peter 3:10-13 are about the fire of the Holy Spirit, and nothing else more than that?
I disagree.

From the Amillennial view, even the scriptures about symbolic Gog and Magog are just another description of the scripture references I listed above.
Rev. 20
[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
[7] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
[8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
[9] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and FIRE came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
See also Heb. 12:18-29.

Indeed, the scriptures include many things, each eluding to what is true with spiritual words. So much so that many believe that it means this, and many others something else. But just as the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world--not in flesh and blood, but then also came when the times of God's revelations "here a little there a little" were fulfilled, He also came by flesh and blood. But notice that the event before was in the omnipresence of God, while in flesh and blood was only limited in a small part of this world. Likewise, the "consuming fire" of God cleanses heaven and earth, both spiritually and physically--but may even go unnoticed in some parts of the world. Even so, its effect is as far as the east is to the west, and every eye--since Adam--shall see. Which is only possible in the world, as it is written, "but each one in his own order." Meaning that all that is written comes to all who are born even in their own time passing, but also comes in the fulness of time, if only in a small way, that God is true in everyway, whether in spirit, or in the form of this world.

All of which is only fully understood when "rightly dividing the word of truth", whether the passage refers to things occurring in heaven or in this world--which if improperly mixed, is confusion. Therefore, Christ warned, saying such things as, "If they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together." Wherein He made it be known, that much of what is written is spiritual and takes place in the heavenly realm, and not fully, if at all, in this world--where the eagles would be looking for it to occur.

Even so, this world and this earth are only for a time. Then comes the end.

 

[Earburner]

I agree, spiritually. But we still have a natural birthright, citizenship, heritage, DNA, and passport.

• Do you not have natural citizenship?
• Do you not have a passport?

Abraham was a Gentile.
Originally, Israel is nothing but a bunch of Gentiles, called out from the Gentiles, that God separated and set apart for Himself and then called them a new name: Israel. Physically, Israel is NOT a new race of people.
The seed of Abraham is the father of the country of ISRAEL through his son Isaac, as the seed of Abraham is also the father of the ARABIC countries through his son Ishmael.
Altogether, they are the race of Gentile Semetic peoples.

 

[WPM]

Abraham was a Gentile.
Originally, Israel is nothing but a bunch of Gentiles, called out from the Gentiles, that God separated and set apart for Himself and then called them a new name: Israel. Physically, Israel is NOT a new race of people.
The seed of Abraham is the father of the country of ISRAEL through his son Isaac, as the seed of Abraham is also the father of the ARABIC countries through his son Ishmael.
Altogether, they are the race of Gentile Semetic peoples.

The Israeli seed is found in Jacob not Ishmael or Esau.

 

[WPM]

Abraham was a Gentile.
Originally, Israel is nothing but a bunch of Gentiles, called out from the Gentiles, that God separated and set apart for Himself and then called them a new name: Israel. Physically, Israel is NOT a new race of people.
The seed of Abraham is the father of the country of ISRAEL through his son Isaac, as the seed of Abraham is also the father of the ARABIC countries through his son Ishmael.
Altogether, they are the race of Gentile Semetic peoples.

• Do you not have natural citizenship?
• Do you not have a passport?

 

[Muna]

Wouldn't the figure between Isaac and Ishmael be shown between (those who are Abraham's seed, in Christ) and the that which is of the law?

For example,

Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh (Ishmael) persecuted him (Isaac) that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Which thing is shown us in Ishmael, which is according to the law as Paul points out whene he says

Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Which would be found allegorically in one of Abraham's sons (Ishmael)

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

The children of the promise is in accordance with Isaac (the son of the free) as Paul said here

Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise

Whereas he says, Hagar answereth to Jerusalem (the bondwoman) which now is, who persecutes and kills the prophets

Jesus aknowledges the same as the seed of Abraham (according to the flesh) when he said,

John 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Abraham's seed, or children (according to the flesh)

1 Thes 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men

The same were said to be of the law according Paul's allegory

Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Also considered a nation (in the singular sense)

Gen 21:13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.

Children of the prophets (as Abraham was a prophet) to whom the promise was made, which was to Abraham, and His seed, which is Christ

Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

Through Christ, whom as concerning the flesh Christ came

Romans 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Their rejection

Luke 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

Then ofcourse they who he would send

Mat 10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

These are called his brethren

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren

After he was lifted up (crucified) at his rising they would preach Christ to all nations (Psalm 2:8)

We (of the nations, whether Jew or Gentile, who are not a people) are made accepted in the beloved (in Jesus Christ, His beloved Son)

Romans 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Which is inclusive of both those who are called of the Jews and of the Gentiles by his grace

Romans 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Am I missing something?

 

[Muna]

I caved in out of curiosity and asked Ai which religion is the one that teaches that Ishmael is the muslims, and it replies

Islam teaches that Ishmael is the ancestor of the Muslim nation. Muslims believe that Ishmael, the firstborn son of Abraham and Hagar, is a prophet and the forefather of the Ishmaelites, who are considered the ancestors of the Arab people and the lineage through which the Prophet Muhammad is descended. This connection is central to Islamic tradition, which holds that Ishmael settled in Mecca, where he and his father Abraham are believed to have built the Kaaba, the holiest site in Islam. While Judaism and Christianity also recognize Ishmael as Abraham's son, they do not trace their religious lineage to him, instead viewing Isaac as the chosen heir.

Then I asked out of curiosity who Paul the apostle taught the children of the bondwoman was

Paul the apostle uses the story of Abraham's sons, Ishmael and Isaac, as an allegory in his letter to the Galatians to illustrate the contrast between the covenants of law and grace. Paul states that Hagar, the bondwoman, represents the covenant from Mount Sinai, which gives birth to bondage, and that this Hagar corresponds to the present Jerusalem, which is in bondage with her children. This symbolic identification is not a literal claim about the descendants of Ishmael being the same as the people of Jerusalem, but rather a theological interpretation where Hagar and Ishmael symbolize the Old Covenant, characterized by slavery to the law. Paul emphasizes that the Jerusalem above is free and is the mother of all believers, contrasting it with the present Jerusalem that is in bondage. Therefore, Paul's point is not that Muslims are literally the descendants of Ishmael or that Ishmael represents modern Muslims, but that the allegory uses Ishmael and Hagar to symbolize the spiritual condition of those who rely on the law rather than faith in Christ. The focus is on the spiritual state of being under the law versus being children of promise through faith.

 

[Earburner]

The Israeli seed is found in Jacob not Ishmael or Esau.

You missed it. Did they all generate from Adam to Noah to Abraham?
Yes!!! They were all Gentiles.

Now, did Abraham the Gentile have two sons called Ishmael and Isaac?
Yes!!! They were Gentiles also.
Moving forward, Isaac had Jacob and Esau, both also were Gentiles.
Gen. 32
[27] And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob [a Gentile].
[28] And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Q. Did Jacob [a Gentile], who was now called Israel, BECOME A NEW RACE?
A. Absolutely not!! Only his name was changed.
Therefore, Israel was never a new race of people. They all are of the race of Gentile Semites, who were generated from the seed of Abraham's two sons, Ishmael [a Gentile Semite] and Isaac [a Gentile Semite].
All were and still are GENTILES.

 

[WPM]

You missed it. Did they all generate from Adam to Noah to Abraham?
Yes!!! They were all Gentiles.

Now, did Abraham the Gentile have two sons called Ishmael and Isaac?
Yes!!! They were Gentiles also.
Moving forward, Isaac had Jacob and Esau, both also were Gentiles.
Gen. 32
[27] And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob [a Gentile].
[28] And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Q. Did Jacob [a Gentile], who was now called Israel, BECOME A NEW RACE?
A. Absolutely not!! Only his name was changed.
Therefore, Israel was never a new race of people. They all are of the race of Gentile Semites, who were generated from the seed of Abraham's two sons, Ishmael [a Gentile Semite] and Isaac [a Gentile Semite].
All were and still are GENTILES.

God changed Jacob's name to Israel in Genesis 32. This event marked the beginning of his new identity and the beginning of the Israeli identity. The broader group of descendants who became the Israelites began with Jacob's twelve sons and their families.

 

[Muna]

God changed Jacob's name to Israel in Genesis 32. This event marked the beginning of his new identity and the beginning of the Israeli identity. The broader group of descendants who became the Israelites began with Jacob's twelve sons and their families.

What of these here WPM, what are your thoughts on this?

Isaiah 48:1 Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness.

Isaiah 48:2 For they call themselves of the holy city, and stay themselves upon the God of Israel; The LORD of hosts is his name.

 

[WPM]

What of these here WPM, what are your thoughts on this?

Isaiah 48:1 Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness.

Isaiah 48:2 For they call themselves of the holy city, and stay themselves upon the God of Israel; The LORD of hosts is his name.

I am not sure of your thought/enquiry. Could you expand a bit?

 

[Muna]

I am not sure of your thought/enquiry. Could you expand a bit?

Not wonder! Sorry about that WPM, that was my fault, I had another couple of verses I never posted behind it and I can't even think of which ones they were because I had fallen upon the two while reading your thread and considering a couple of things.

I would be scratching my head too

Just ignore me for now, if I can find the other verses I was curious about I will repost. I thought I saved them but apparently not.