Biblical proof that we the New Testament Church are true Israel today

[WPM]

Not wonder! Sorry about that WPM, that was my fault, I had another couple of verses I never posted behind it and I can't even think of which ones they were because I had fallen upon the two while reading your thread and considering a couple of things.

I would be scratching my head too

Just ignore me for now, if I can find the other verses I was curious about I will repost. I thought I saved them but apparently not.

I am not sure if these were the texts you were thinking of.

The Psalmist put it well in Psalm 73:1, “Truly God is good to Israel, even to such as are of a clean heart.”

Isaiah 48:1-2: “Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness. For they call themselves of the holy city, and stay themselves upon the God of Israel; The LORD of hosts is his name.”

Isaiah 49:6: “And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.”

Designations and titles in Scripture often have a natural and ethnic meaning and a spiritual and heavenly meaning. It is important to recognize: the natural reality is never adequate to bring someone into a personal relationship with God. It carries no eternal worth. It simply gives one an advantage in regard to the exterior blessings of God – like knowing truth and being privileged to live in a godly environment.

The same personal terms that are used in the Old Testament to describe the visible congregation of God’s people are carried over into the New Testament to represent the invisible congregation of God. This is a common occurrence with designations like this. The application of common old covenant Israeli terms to the Church only serves to reinforce the oneness of God’s people throughout time.

Sometimes we have to prove ‘what is not’ before we can prove ‘what is’. The reason why this is especially important on this subject is because there is so much confusing teaching out there in Christian circles on this issue. It is crucial that we let the New Testament Scripture speak for itself and remove the theological haze hanging over this subject. Those of us who have engaged in serious debate with Dispensationalist advocates over the years have encountered a disturbing pattern with that camp: they often try to explain away the fuller revelation of Scripture (the New Testament) by their opinion of what the Old Testament teaches. It is as if the New Testament is less important, because it refutes their position and disallows their reasoning.

 

[Muna]

I am not sure if these were the texts you were thinking of.

The Psalmist put it well in Psalm 73:1, “Truly God is good to Israel, even to such as are of a clean heart.”

Isaiah 48:1-2: “Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness. For they call themselves of the holy city, and stay themselves upon the God of Israel; The LORD of hosts is his name.”

Isaiah 49:6: “And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.”

Designations and titles in Scripture often have a natural and ethnic meaning and a spiritual and heavenly meaning. It is important to recognize: the natural reality is never adequate to bring someone into a personal relationship with God. It carries no eternal worth. It simply gives one an advantage in regard to the exterior blessings of God – like knowing truth and being privileged to live in a godly environment.

The same personal terms that are used in the Old Testament to describe the visible congregation of God’s people are carried over into the New Testament to represent the invisible congregation of God. This is a common occurrence with designations like this. The application of common old covenant Israeli terms to the Church only serves to reinforce the oneness of God’s people throughout time.

Sometimes we have to prove ‘what is not’ before we can prove ‘what is’. The reason why this is especially important on this subject is because there is so much confusing teaching out there in Christian circles on this issue. It is crucial that we let the New Testament Scripture speak for itself and remove the theological haze hanging over this subject. Those of us who have engaged in serious debate with Dispensationalist advocates over the years have encountered a disturbing pattern with that camp: they often try to explain away the fuller revelation of Scripture (the New Testament) by their opinion of what the Old Testament teaches. It is as if the New Testament is less important, because it refutes their position and disallows their reasoning.

It might not be those verses but that is still very helpful WPM thank you

 

[Earburner]

God changed Jacob's name to Israel in Genesis 32. This event marked the beginning of his new identity and the beginning of the Israeli identity. The broader group of descendants who became the Israelites began with Jacob's twelve sons and their families.

I say, so what!
Ok, they had a name change from Gentile to Israel. That doesn't physically or spiritually make them to be a new race of people. They are nothing more than Gentiles with a name change.
Therefore, there is nothing holy about Semetic people, whether they are Jews or Arabs.

Both are Semetic Gentiles that need to stop the family feud of being Anti-semetic towards each other, and come to Jesus, the Savior of the world. John 3:16; Zech. ch. 14.

​

 

[ScottA]

You missed it. Did they all generate from Adam to Noah to Abraham?
Yes!!! They were all Gentiles.

Now, did Abraham the Gentile have two sons called Ishmael and Isaac?
Yes!!! They were Gentiles also.
Moving forward, Isaac had Jacob and Esau, both also were Gentiles.
Gen. 32
[27] And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob [a Gentile].
[28] And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Q. Did Jacob [a Gentile], who was now called Israel, BECOME A NEW RACE?
A. Absolutely not!! Only his name was changed.
Therefore, Israel was never a new race of people. They all are of the race of Gentile Semites, who were generated from the seed of Abraham's two sons, Ishmael [a Gentile Semite] and Isaac [a Gentile Semite].
All were and still are GENTILES.

Yes, and the new name "Israel" meaning "God prevails", is simply a signpost showing the progression of God's salvation plan--as under a banner, as a light upon a hill. In which there are many details, concisely stated, simply means that: God chooses, and God changes those whom He chooses from among all people.

 

[Earburner]

Yes @ScottA , I think that you can agree that all of Zech. ch 14 has been fulfilled, is being fulfilled, and shall be fulfilled.

By God's Eternal Holy Spirit, we can know that through His words, He has been revealing His thoughts of past, present and future all at the same time, and therefore we do agree to that, ever since Jesus' first coming.
Zech. 14[11] And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but [New] Jerusalem shall be, [is now, and has been] safely inhabited.

 

[WPM]

I say, so what!
Ok, they had a name change from Gentile to Israel. That doesn't physically or spiritually make them to be a new race of people. They are nothing more than Gentiles with a name change.
Therefore, there is nothing holy about Semetic people, whether they are Jews or Arabs.

Both are Semetic Gentiles that need to stop the family feud of being Anti-semetic towards each other, and come to Jesus, the Savior of the world. John 3:16; Zech. ch. 14.

​

Do you have earthly citizenship? Do you have a passport? Do you reside in a nation?

 

[Muna]

Do you have earthly citizenship? Do you have a passport? Do you reside in a nation?

Thats a good question, Paul the apostle was a Roman citizen, that is where he resided, but he just as many jews today have dual citizens, where they have both their citizenship (and passport) between the United states and Israel. On the otherhand that is not allowed in Israel (that anyone outside of the Jews) can immigrate to Israel (and have citizenship there). The dual stuff goes on here but its disallowed there, even though the U.S gives mass funds to Israel.

Edit typo

 

[Earburner]

Do you have earthly citizenship? Do you have a passport? Do you reside in a nation?

What you are focusing on has nothing to do with the Jews believing that they are NOT of the race of Gentiles, when in all reality, they most surely are.

 

[WPM]

What you are focusing on has nothing to do with the Jews believing that they are NOT of the race of Gentiles, when in all reality, they most surely are.

God places man into 2 categories since Jacob's offspring. You see that in the OT and the NT. So, so can we!

Those of Jacob's natural offspring are Israeli - fact! Deny it if you want. But Scripture depicts this.

 

[Gottservant]

To the OP, Israel is a a Wise Nation - are you saying the New Testament Church has the true wisdom?

 

[WPM]

To the OP, Israel is a a Wise Nation - are you saying the New Testament Church has the true wisdom?

Explain your question.

Also, why not address the biblical arguments in the Op?

 

[Muna]

To the OP, Israel is a a Wise Nation - are you saying the New Testament Church has the true wisdom?

1 Cr 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise

Deut 32:31 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

 

[Gottservant]

Explain your question.

Also, why not address the biblical arguments in the Op?

I am just saying "what is the Wisdom of being the New Church?"

 

[Gottservant]

1 Cr 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise

Exactly. We need to guard against being too wise.

 

[WPM]

I am just saying "what is the Wisdom of being the New Church?"

The wisdom is bowing the knee to Christ in salvation. There is nothing wiser or smarter.

 

[Gottservant]

The wisdom is bowing the knee to Christ in salvation. There is nothing wiser or smarter.

And do the Jews not wisely, await the coming of the Messiah? In their hearts they have bowed to Him? And will tell you openly, they are waiting for the Messiah?

 

[WPM]

And do the Jews not wisely, await the coming of the Messiah? In their hearts they have bowed to Him? And will tell you openly, they are waiting for the Messiah?

What?

If they reject Christ as Savior and Lord, if they are not born again of the Sprit of God, if they are not redeemed, they are children of Satan.

 

[Muna]

The wisdom is bowing the knee to Christ in salvation. There is nothing wiser or smarter.

Amen, Christ is made unto us the wisdom of God.

But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

 

[WPM]

And do the Jews not wisely, await the coming of the Messiah? In their hearts they have bowed to Him? And will tell you openly, they are waiting for the Messiah?

People that do not have Jesus Christ are not His chosen. I don't know where you're getting that from.

Favor with God can come only through Jesus Christ. He is heaven’s only means of access to God. Acts 4:12 says, “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”

This is God’s only way to heaven. Christ is the center-point of salvation. We therefore see that Christ alone is our only way of access to heaven. There is no alternative arrangement pertaining to race or any other distinction. 1 Corinthians 3:11 states, “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”

Of course, Christ is the Rock that the believer stands on. He is the only spiritual foundation for man. Men either build their house upon that Rock or build it upon sand. Sand is self! A house properly built upon the Rock stands firm in the midst of the storm but the house built upon the sand falls apart. 1 Timothy 2:5-6 expressly states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time”

This couldn’t be any clearer! There is no Plan B. There is no back-doors into heaven. There is no alternative salvation. There is no other means of man gaining favor with God! There is no other way to become a child of God. There is no other path to be God’s one of God’s elect.

John the Baptist proclaimed in John 3:36, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

There is nothing vague, ambiguous or complicated here. God only sees those in Christ and those not in Christ. There is also no room for fence-sitting here. If a Jew or Gentile (in the Old Testament or the New Testament) loves the Messiah Christ He is one of God's chosen, if he doesn't he is under the wrath of God. Simple!!! Basically: accept Jesus and God accepts you, reject Him and God rejects you.

Jesus said in John 5:23b-24, “He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

Ok, what does this mean? Simple: those Jews and Gentiles that don’t accept Christ, don’t accept the Father. Christ-rejecting Jews and Gentiles are therefore under condemnation and are of their father the devil.

I John 2:22-23 solemnly asks, “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ (or Messiah)? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.”

Q. Does Israel overwhelmingly deny “that Jesus is the Christ” or Messiah?

A. Absolutely. Therefore, Judaism without Christ is a counterfeit religion. It is apostate! Any belief that denies Christ His rightful place as man's sole Redeemer is destined for destruction. Anyone that rejects Christ (1) is antichrist, (2) belongs to Satan, (3) is part of the kingdom of darkness and is (4) bound for the Lake of Fire.

1 John 5:12: “He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.”

The teaching of Scripture couldn’t be plainer: Jews who do recognize Christ as Messiah are saved. Jews who do not recognize Christ as Messiah are lost. The only chosen people that God knows and accepts are those that accept His Son. The rest are of their father the devil.

2 John 1:9: “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.”

If a sinner refuses Christ, he refuses the Father. This couldn’t be clearer in Scripture.

Jesus said in Luke 9:48, “whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me.”

So, those that reject Jesus, reject salvation. Those that reject Jesus, reject the Father. Those that reject Jesus, are children of the devil. This is seen throughout the inspired New Testament account.

Jesus said in Matthew 11:6: “blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.”

We don’t need to speculate about what natural Israel currently thinks of Christ.

Jesus said in Matthew 12:30, “He that is not with me is against me.”

There is no neutrality with this Jesus. There is no room for fence-sitting when it comes to Him. You are either for Him or against Him.

Jesus said in John 15:23, “He that hateth me hateth my Father also.”

God does not separate His elect up, He unites them together in Christ. In fact, there is nothing more unbiblical in this new covenant period than trying to divide up the people of God on the grounds of ethnicity. That is spiritual apartheid and runs completely to the New Testament plan of God to bring Jew and Gentile together equally in Christ. The whole mission of Jesus Christ in introducing the new covenant was to unite Jew and Gentile in salvation. Nothing could be clearer in the New Testament!

 

[Gottservant]

What?

If they reject Christ as Savior and Lord, if they are not born again of the Sprit of God, if they are not redeemed, they are children of Satan.

Salvation is of the Jews, Jesus said. How will the Messiah return with Salvation in His Wings, if the Jews do not keep their wisdom?

Or are you [keeping wisdom] for them?