It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial
- Thread starter WPM
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
TrevorHL
Active Member
- Jul 17, 2024
- 617
- 174
- 43
- 82
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Australia
- Gender
- Male
Greetings Scott Downey and Greetings again WPM,
Kind regards
Trevor
I am conscious of the New Heaven and New Earth mentioned in Isaiah 65:17-25. I do not know exactly what you are stating in your Post, and exactly how this relates to Isaiah 2:1-4. I am not able to decipher how you understand Isaiah 2:1-4 and its detail.
I do not consider it important to exactly define when the last days begin and the last days end. What I consider important is that the events and detail depicted in Isaiah 2:1-4 will occur within this period of the last days and it is also relevant that the details of Isaiah 2:1-4 have not yet occurred or been fulfilled. I consider that this speaks of events between the return of Jesus to the earth and the full establishment of the Kingdom, centred in Jerusalem. In other words, this is very much the Pre-Millennial perspective. To me, this perspective is very much alive and well. Perhaps this passage buries your 114 pages of denial of the simple clear testimony of the Scriptures.
Kind regards
Trevor
Trevor you're not understanding because you think the prophet is writing of a literal, physical Kingdom on this earth that shall be "the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it", when Christ comes again.
You've not yet realized the mountain of the Lord's house is not and never shall be a literal, physical Kingdom of God upon THIS earth. The house of the Lord, that exists now, since the coming of the Lord to earth is found in heaven. Christ calls this the Kingdom of God in heaven. Not a literal, physical place, but a spiritual place that may only be known and entered by man through the Spirit of Christ in you. It is the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven, that came with Christ that is being built as the Church faithfully proclaims the gospel of the Kingdom of God and whosoever believes through Christ's Spirit in them, being born again both knows and has entered, not through physical flesh & blood but by the power of the Spirit of Christ testifying to our spirit that we have gone from being "dead in trespasses and sins" to be spiritually alive in Christ eternally.
Here is a vivid depiction of the mountain of the Lord's house, the Holy Kingdom of God in heaven that is now being built, and when complete it shall come down from heaven, not to the first earth that is now, but to the new earth that shall be when Christ comes again.
Revelation 21:10 (KJV) And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Revelation 21:22-27 (KJV) And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Matthew 12:28 (KJV) But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
TrevorHL
Active Member
- Jul 17, 2024
- 617
- 174
- 43
- 82
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Australia
- Gender
- Male
Greetings rwb,
Kind regards
Trevor
I appreciate your opinion but strongly disagree. I accept the detail revealed in Isaiah 2:1-4. As well as many other prophecies, Zechariah 14 also reveals much detail and these two prophecies are like bookends to all the OT prophecies concerning the future Kingdom of God upon the earth.
Kind regards
Trevor
Why are you promoting Isaiah 2 as a future millennium when you do not have a clue when "the last days" began, when they end, and when "the last day" is? It seems like you are just repeating what you have been taught.
The objective Bible student should be cognizant of the contrast between “the last days” (plural) and “the last day” (singular). One refers to the intra-Advent period and the other refers to the final day of that same period. As you study the consistent biblical teaching on this matter you discover that “the last day” is in fact “the end.” There is nothing vague or indefinite about these terms. This aligns with what Scripture repeatedly describe as “the end of the age.” In fact, if one was to do a thorough and objective study of each of these expressions and carefully note the detail that is attributed to each you will notice a consistent pattern that they all describe the same climactic event when Jesus appears. This is it!
Scripture clearly and repeatedly depicts the second coming as the “last (or end, farthest or final) day (singular) of “the last (or end, farthest or final) days” (plural). It also depicts it as “the end.” The New Testament word from which we get our phrase “the end” is the Greek word telos which refers to the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. the conclusion of an act or state. It is the termination point of a thing.
Premillennialists have a habit of diluting the meaning of the phrase “the last day” to the degree that they literally strip it of its obvious, straightforward, consistent and widely accepted meaning.
Likewise, the end of this world and the regeneration of this earth is repeatedly shown to correspond with the end of this age – at the second coming. Time and history find themselves sandwiched in between these two great events. Simply put: “this age” refers to “time” and “the age to come” or the “hereafter” refers to “eternity.”
Last edited:
This is very vague Trevor. Perhaps you can point out where I relied on MY opinion without biblical proof texts? Do you deny the passage (there are others) I gave that shows the mountain of the Lord's house, the holy city of Jerusalem shall come down from heaven, and that shall not be until "the first heaven and earth were passed away"?
Revelation 21:1-6 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
If you can, I would also like to see from the Word of God where any one of the prophecies from Old show the future Kingdom of God upon THIS physical earth? Also, if you can, please explain why Christ tells us the Kingdom of God that He brought to man when He came to earth a man, is not of THIS world, and is not observable, because the Kingdom of God is within you?
John 18:36 (KJV) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Luke 17:20 (KJV) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luke 17:21 (KJV) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
TrevorHL
Active Member
- Jul 17, 2024
- 617
- 174
- 43
- 82
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Australia
- Gender
- Male
Greetings again WPM and rwb,
Kind regards
Trevor
I have considered this subject over many years, and yes this is clearly taught in my environment, but I am careful in deciding what I accept. I was interested in your exposition of "the last days", but I do not see that what you have stated has any real bearing on my assessment of the detail of Isaiah 2:1-4 and how these verses depict what has not yet occurred and speaks of a very specific period of time when these special events will occur. For example, it clearly speaks of a transition period when there will be no longer any warfare. I find it interesting that Isaiah spoke these words during the reign of Uzziah, a king who was extremely interested in warfare and appears to be successful in his ingenuity in inventing special armaments. If there was to be a prophecy concerning the nation of Israel today, then these words are very relevant and applicable to them. They trust in their weapons more than trusting in God, and one of the great contrasts in the book of Isaiah is between Uzziah and Hezekiah in this respect.
I appreciate your response and understand your perspective to some extent, but I have a different perspective on Isaiah 2:1-4 and I accept the literal view of these verses, speaking of a period of transition between the return of Jesus and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God upon the earth for the 1000 years. I could quote many other OT references between Isaiah 2 and Zechariah 14.
Kind regards
Trevor
Hey Trevor,
Thanks for your thoughts!
Isaiah 2:2-4 says, speaking of the Lord’s first Advent, “And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."
Micah 4:1-3 parallels this teaching, saying, “in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.”
Firstly, mountains in Scripture prophetically speak of kingdoms. That is the case in Isaiah 2 and Malachi 4. God urges His people throughout the nations in the last days to stream to His holy mountain - the kingdom of God. This is obviously talking about an intimate spiritual place with Him, not a geographical location.
Daniel 2:34-35: "a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth."
The small stone in this prophecy represents the kingdom of God. The kingdom began as a small stone with Christ and grew through the early church in a small nation and has now become (as predicted) a large mountain today throughout the world covering all nations. It is explicitly stated in Daniel 2:44 that the kingdom of God would be set up in the days of the Roman Empire. What a prophecy! Remember, this was written about 164 B.C. when the Gentiles were deceived and without hope.
Secondly, the peace described came with the earthly ministry of Christ. It is spiritual. It pertains to the kingdom of God. It also relates to the last days – the days we are living in. These passages are telling us that Messiah would come and bring peace to His subjects. This would be performed through the Word of God going out of Zion to all nations in these last days. Christ did this. The Gentiles are now coming to the truth of God by their millions. Isaiah receives a pictorial vision of the approaching new covenant order, and the last days. It is given in a metaphorical style describing the incredible peace and reconciliation that comes through the success of the Gospel. The mountain of the Lord refers to the kingdom introduced by Christ. There is no more war there. That is the case in Isaiah 2 and Malachi 4. The peace described came with the earthly ministry of Christ. It is spiritual. It pertains to the kingdom of God. It also relates to the last days – the days we are living in.
The kingdom of God that Christ brought was a spiritual kingdom and incorporates the whole domain of which the Lord Jesus Christ exercises His divine kingship, His dominion and His intimate rule. It is the realm in which the rule of man becomes the rule of God; it is the area where the law of God and righteousness is pre-eminent. Romans 14:17 says, “For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.”
The peace spoken of here is the peace that pertains to those saved by God’s Sovereign grace, and who belong to the spiritual kingdom of God. Not only would Messiah’s kingdom be characterised by peace, but He also would be “the prince of peace.” Isaiah 9:6 says, “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, the prince of peace.”
Isaiah 26:1-5 says, “In that day shall this song be sung in the land of Judah; We have a strong city; salvation will God appoint for walls and bulwarks. Open ye the gates, that the righteous nation which keepeth the truth may enter in. Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.”
Isaiah 26:12 continues, “LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us.”
Isaiah 57:19-21 also says of the Lord and His mercy toward the Gentiles, “Peace, peace to him that is far off (the Gentiles), and to him that is near (the Jews), saith the LORD; and I will heal him. But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt. There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked.”
Isaiah 66:12 continues, speaking of Christ’s first Coming and the spread of the Gospel to the nations, “Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream.”
There is a progression in the plan of God in Scripture. We can see that in the movement from the Old to the New Testament. There is a striking enlargement of God’s favor upon mankind over this past 2,000 years.
Last edited:
TrevorHL
Active Member
- Jul 17, 2024
- 617
- 174
- 43
- 82
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Australia
- Gender
- Male
Greetings again WPM,
Kind regards
Trevor
I appreciate your exposition, but I continue to hold to the view that Isaiah 2:1-4 speaks of a specific future time of transition between the return of Christ and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God upon the earth for the 1000 years. Pure, simple premillenialism, alive and well.
Kind regards
Trevor
I see nothing to support that in Scripture. What is more, there is no mention in the text of some imaginary future millennium. You have to force it into the text. Also, you still haven't told us when did/does the last days begin? When did/does the last days end? When is "the last day"? What happens on it?
Finally, you have not rebutted one single thing I have presented. I will take that as an admission that it is watertight.
TrevorHL
Active Member
- Jul 17, 2024
- 617
- 174
- 43
- 82
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Australia
- Gender
- Male
Greetings again WPM,
Kind regards
Trevor
Yes, I have presented a simple, clear explanation of Isaiah 2:1-4. I was also amused at your unusual treatment of Daniel 2, another clear evidence that teaches premillenialism. Pure, simple premillenialism, alive and well.
Kind regards
Trevor
I think you think if you state an opinion that makes it a fact. It's not the way it works. You've proved nothing. You have nothing in those texts that mention an imaginary future millennium. You know it!
TrevorHL
Active Member
- Jul 17, 2024
- 617
- 174
- 43
- 82
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Australia
- Gender
- Male
Greetings again WPM,
Kind regards
Trevor
I have commented on the simple, clear words of Isaiah 2:1-4 and as such it is not simply my opinion. The words of Isaiah 2:1-4 are their own clear testimony and this clearly teaches premillenialism. Pure, simple premillenialism, alive and well..
Kind regards
Trevor
Not true. Isaiah 2 supports Amil. It shows the millennium relates to the current ongoing last days period. The last days were introduced with Christ and ends at His second coming, which is shown to be the last day.
TrevorHL
Active Member
- Jul 17, 2024
- 617
- 174
- 43
- 82
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Australia
- Gender
- Male
Greetings again WPM,
Kind regards
Trevor
Isaiah 2:4 (KJV): 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Kind regards
Trevor
Isaiah 2 and Micah 4 are not speaking of physical conflict and external persecution emanating from outside the kingdom upon the saints (and especially against the Church on this earth before Christ’s coming in Satan’s little season), but the internal peaceful conditions that eternally exist within the kingdom of God. The true believer that has been united to Christ and truly resides within this kingdom ceases from fighting with the arm of flesh any more. Ancient foes unite in love. The weapons of war – the swords and spears – are metaphorically converted into the tools of peacetime – the plowshares and pruninghooks – (Isaiah 2:4, Micah 4:3).
The peace that would come with the kingdom was spiritual peace not physical peace marked by the cessation of violence. Anyway, this is not true peace. True biblical peace - the peace that Christ offers is the peace that comes through sinful man being reconciled to an offended God. That is all that matters. The learning war no more refers to what happens when one enters the kingdom. The New Testament tells us that "the kingdom of God is ... peace" (Romans 14:17).
Isaiah 2 and Micah 4 fit perfectly with the Amillennial concept of the kingdom but totally contradicts the Premillennial idea. Firstly, there are no wicked in our kingdom and there are no physical wars involved or allowed in our kingdom. It is a spiritual kingdom that is inhabited solely by God’s people and who eternally enters into the peace of God. Secondly, Amils believe Jesus ushered "the last days" 2000 years ago through the earthly ministry of Christ and will continue until "the last day" when Jesus comes. Premils invent another last days that suits their theology after the last day is finished.
The redeemed of all nations that come into the kingdom of God no longer “lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." They have experienced true peace and have been reconciled unto a holy God. As a consequence, their weapons of war have been made redundant; they now operate with the tools of peace. Former enemies are miraculously reconciled “in Christ” through the blood of Jesus. The prince of peace has affected a supernatural change by way of conversion. Out goes the old and in comes the new. What was once used to destroy others has been supernaturally changed to bless others. Ancient enemies are unified within God’s great spiritual kingdom. They enter into heaven's peace.
Ephesians 2:13-15 confirms this, saying: “now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace.”
The nations have been united in peace through the Prince of peace, and His shed blood on Calvary.
Colossians 1:19-20: “For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him.”
Christ is our peace - now! A major difficulty I have with Premillennialism is that it postpones so much current blessing and projects it into a supposed period in the future that (I believe) will never be. It therefore totally nullifies countless ongoing fulfilments. This is a disturbing factor engrained within the doctrine. This passage under review is a case-in-point.
Because Christ is peace, He imparts that peace to us upon salvation. When we receive Him we receive peace. We get the full package. Jesus said in John 16:33, “in me ye might have peace.” Colossians 3:15 consequently instructs us: “let the peace of God rule in your hearts.”
Many that live in nations that would be viewed in an earthly sense as peaceful or free are in reality filled with strife, hatred and turmoil. Scripture makes it clear: “There is no peace, saith the LORD, unto the wicked” (Isaiah 48:22). Conversely, Scripture after Scripture repeatedly depicts entry into the kingdom of God and a relationship with Christ as man’s only true peace. In fact Romans 14:17 tells us "the kingdom of God is ... peace."
Peace only comes through salvation. Jesus said in that wonderful passage in John 14:27 during His earthly ministry, “Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.” If someone is redeemed then they have entered into the peace of God through the Prince of Peace. Here was the fulfilment of this reading in operation. Here was the “Prince of Peace” in operation. Peace is not merely a future hope, it is a present reality. It’s an intimate relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. Philippians 4:7 says, “the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.”
The redeemed of all nations that come into the kingdom of God no longer “lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." They have experienced true peace and have been reconciled unto a holy God. As a consequence, their weapons of war have been made redundant; they now operate with the tools of peace. Former enemies are miraculously reconciled “in Christ” through the blood of Jesus. The prince of peace has affected a supernatural change by way of conversion. Out goes the old and in comes the new. What was once used to destroy others has been supernaturally changed to bless others. Ancient enemies are unified within God’s great spiritual kingdom. They enter into heaven's peace.
Last edited:
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
This is all fizz and bubble. You cannot even show your beliefs in Scripture. The reality is: you cannot refute the Amil and Postmil positions.
I have given some thought to this today.
There are two themes to Isaiah 2
The first is about the Lord teaching His people.
Isaiah 2:3 He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths.”
Referring to His church.
The second theme is of the coming judgment on the Day of the Lord, begins in v5
We are right now in the first part where Christ and God are teaching the church.
Do you realize when Christ comes, that means the perfect has come?
When Christ has come again, there will be no more need for teaching us His ways, or beating swords into plowshares.
Which is even written on the wall for the United Nations.
It really has to do with us though who believe. We do not wage war against our other brethren in the faith from the other nations.
1 Corinthians 13
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is [d]perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
For us today, this here
2 Peter 3:18
but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.
Colossians 3:10
and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,
We have partial knowledge now in this life,
But in the age-world to come, after Christ has returned, then this
1. Complete Knowledge in Christ
- 1 Corinthians 13:12
“For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”
2. We Will See Him As He Is
- 1 John 3:2
“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.”
3. Christ Will Transform Our Minds
- Philippians 3:20–21
“For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.”
4. All Things Made Clear as we shall be like Him
- Colossians 3:4
“When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.”
5. God’s Light Brings Understanding
- Revelation 22:3–5
“And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face… and they shall reign for ever and ever.”
→ Seeing God’s face implies perfect revelation and understanding.
6. God Reveals What We Cannot Now Bear
- John 16:12–13
“I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth.”
→ Complete fulfillment of this awaits eternity.
Ephesians 4:13 will not be fully realized on this 'first' earth, but will be on the 'new' earth God will make for us
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the [e]edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the [e]edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
Similar threads
