Biblical proof that we the New Testament Church are true Israel today

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Earburner

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In a sense yes, the name change from Israel to Jacob did make him a new creature/creation through the One SEED, Christ. Not in the physical but spiritually, "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated". (Ro 9)

All Israel shall be saved certainly does not mean every son/daughter of physical descendants called Israel physically through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Paul says the Deliverer shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob (personal/spiritual name), because the Covenant is unto THEM, when Christ shall take away THEIR sins. Both are called Israel, one after the flesh, the other after faith, and only those of Israel of faith shall be saved.

Romans 11:26-27 (KJV) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
TR Greek- Gal. 4:29- But as then, he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now.
I can agree to what you are saying with the way the TR Greek describes it, for prior to the "glorification" of Christ, the permanent indwelling of "the Holy Spirit was NOT yet given".
See also my post 117.
 
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Earburner

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Are you denying that there is such a thing as races or are you denying that there is such a thing as the Jewish race?
There is no such thing as a Jewish race. They are only Semites with a name change.
Their DNA is akin to the Arabs, because they also were of the physical seed of Abraham.
See my post 117.
 

WPM

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There is no such thing as a Jewish race. They are only Semites with a name change.
Their DNA is akin to the Arabs, because they also were of the physical seed of Abraham.
I'm noticing that you are avoiding a lot of very basic questions. Why is that?

Are you denying that there is such a thing as races?

What is your nationality? Do you have any citizenship in any earthly country? Do you carry a passport? Do you belong to a particular race?
 

WPM

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There is no such thing as a Jewish race. They are only Semites with a name change.
Their DNA is akin to the Arabs, because they also were of the physical seed of Abraham.
See my post 117.
Are you saying that the DNA of the offspring of Jacob and his wives and concubines were the exact same as the DNA of the offspring of Esau and his wives?

God blesses and curses certain unique natural lineage.
 
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Earburner

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I'm noticing that you are avoiding a lot of very basic questions. Why is that?

Are you denying that there is such a thing as races?

What is your nationality? Do you have any citizenship in any earthly country? Do you carry a passport? Do you belong to a particular race?
I am not avoiding anything?
The situation is quite clear!
Abraham was a Gentile.

Jacob, also a Gentile, had only a name change, not a complete make over of his DNA.
Physically, both the Arabs and the Israelites are literal Semites. Same father, but different mothers, who also were Gentiles.

It's just your indoctrination that is not allowing you to hear what I am saying through scripture by His Spirit.

Edit: Esau was also a Gentile Semite. He excluded himself from the future Promise to come, whereby through him having no faith in the Messiah to come, he was not allowed to be numbered among the figurative 144,000 sealed of the faithful who were NAMED Israel.
,.
 
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WPM

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I am not avoiding anything?
The situation is quite clear!
Abraham was a Gentile.

Jacob had only a name change, not a complete make over of his DNA.
Physically, both the Arabs and the Israelites are literal Semites. Same father, but different mothers, who also were Gentiles.
Are you denying that there is such a thing as races?

What is your nationality? Do you have any citizenship in any earthly country? Do you carry a passport? Do you belong to a particular race?
 

ScottA

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And do the Jews not wisely, await the coming of the Messiah? In their hearts they have bowed to Him? And will tell you openly, they are waiting for the Messiah?
What?

If they reject Christ as Savior and Lord, if they are not born again of the Sprit of God, if they are not redeemed, they are children of Satan.
Yes, Israel of old waited for their promised Messiah. But then did not know Him at His coming.

Many Jews today also wait for their promised Messiah.

Both were and are victims of their blind guides.
 
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Earburner

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My post #117 Re-posted:

TR Greek- Gal. 4:29- But as then, he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now.

I can agree to what you are saying with the way the TR Greek describes it. For prior to the "glorification" of Christ, the permanent indwelling of "the Holy Spirit was NOT yet given" [John 7:39]. Having died in faith under the altar of the OC., they had NOT yet received the the Promise of the Holy Spirit, which is the vehicle of Eternal Life.
Therefore, the best that God could do for them who were named Israel, was to keep their names in His "Remembrance" (Malachi 3:16-18) until AFTER Christ was glorified.

We can see them in Rev. 6:9-11 all receiving "white robes". THEY ARE the symbolic 144,000 faithful of OC. Israel.
Everyone born after Christ's resurrection is of the Great Multitude, for since Christ first came, there is now "NO difference between Jew or Gentile".
 
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Muna

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Romans 11:25 declares, For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in (or, of) part is happened to Israel, until (or achris hou) the fulness (or full amount) of the Gentiles be come in.”

Dispensationalists interpret this passage as if there is an age of Gentile conversion, which when concluded is followed by an age of Jewish conversion. However, that is not what this is saying. In fact, we know that salvation is equally open to Jews and Gentiles during the new covenant period. This alone should nail the fallacy that we are in a day of only Gentile salvation. This current era is not limited to Gentiles, and the period before the end is not limited to Jews. This passage isn’t remotely suggesting that there is a day coming when salvation will be removed from the Gentiles and given to the Jews. There isn’t a time in the future when salvation is available that Gentiles will be excluded from being saved. Such a thought is absurd. Salvation is available to the “whosever will” right up until the end. The door of opportunity is equally open to the Jew and Gentile during this intra-Advent period.

Now is the day of salvation, the only day of salvation. 2 Corinthians 6:2 confirms, behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.”

Of course, much Scripture depicts the end of salvation as the climactic second coming of Christ. There is no salvation after the return of Jesus. This is when the longsuffering of God comes to an end (2 Peter 3:9, 15). This is when the full amount of Gentiles will be completed. What is more, once the nations of the world have heard the Gospel the ends comes. There is not another age of salvation. Jesus said in Matthew 24:14: "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." This is when the full amount of Gentiles will be completed. The second coming brings the curtain down on the great commission. Once the ark door closes it is too late (Matthew 25:10-13, 28:19-20 and Act 3:19-21). At the end of this age (or literally, the consummation of the age), the time of God’s grace will finally be complete.

Another problem with the Dispensational viewpoint is that it advocates an ongoing distinction between races – specifically the Jew and the Gentile. It also attributes a merit to one’s race – saying that one day one’s birthright will determine salvation. The New Testament is careful to show that race means nothing today – or ever will. It carries no favor. There is no distinction between the nations. They believe there will be some future day – namely the Coming of Christ – when race will mean something and it will determine whether one will be saved or not. For example, they intimate this reading before us proves that there is a day coming when the whole nation of Israel will be corporately saved. Race obviously is an incredible benefit. This racial identity will then automatically secure their salvation. If this is so we should offer those that are not born again a plan b, namely convert to Judaism because it is going to guarantee their salvation at Christ's return.

You are doing it again, I think you take your previous responses to other and do not scrub them from that conversation and post them to me. Because I have not implied, that "this passage isn’t remotely suggesting that there is a day coming when salvation will be removed from the Gentiles and given to the Jews."

To be honest, I don't even think I even know what a dispensationalist is (I typically do not tune into endtime things) I find them hard to follow because they fight between them in the angles which are difficult to recconcile (at least for me) because they cut every which way, as if the topic is not difficult enough in itself alone. But this is probably why I too run into road blocks asking questions in eschatology, because the answers can sometimes be colored through various angles I am not personally taking up.

I am asking from a clean slate. I have no dog in the game (no angles) I am shooting straight from the scripture, just to see how someone (and in this case you) connects the same verse to others verses (but without an taking an angle against one I am not taking). And because I would typically have to reject any an angled response to it since I am not coming from one yet, not having these things fully and firmly settled in my own understanding .

So I am not asking about some sort of ending of salvation for Gentiles but rather the receiving the natural branches into their own in the fullness of times (only that, as far as it might pertain to the times of the Gentiles).

Unless there is a scripture (somewhere else) that states that this specific time is the end of salvation to anyone who is a Gentile (and at that time). But the verse I was asking you about (by itself) was not even giving me that impression, so I would think on a certain level I would still agree with you on just that one.
 

WPM

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You are doing it again, I think you take your previous responses to other and do not scrub them from that conversation and post them to me. Because I have not implied, that "this passage isn’t remotely suggesting that there is a day coming when salvation will be removed from the Gentiles and given to the Jews."

To be honest, I don't even think I even know what a dispensationalist is (I typically do not tune into endtime things) I find them hard to follow because they fight between them in the angles which are difficult to recconcile (at least for me) because they cut every which way, as if the topic is not difficult enough in itself alone. But this is probably why I too run into road blocks asking questions in eschatology, because the answers can sometimes be colored through various angles I am not personally taking up.

I am asking from a clean slate. I have no dog in the game (no angles) I am shooting straight from the scripture, just to see how someone (and in this case you) connects the same verse to others verses (but without an taking an angle against one I am not taking). And because I would typically have to reject any an angled response to it since I am not coming from one yet, not having these things fully and firmly settled in my own understanding .

So I am not asking about some sort of ending of salvation for Gentiles but rather the receiving the natural branches into their own in the fullness of times (only that, as far as it might pertain to the times of the Gentiles).

Unless there is a scripture (somewhere else) that states that this specific time is the end of salvation to anyone who is a Gentile (and at that time). But the verse I was asking you about (by itself) was not even giving me that impression, so I would think on a certain level I would still agree with you on just that one.
My apologies for taking it for granted you knew what Dispensationalism is. But basically, Jews come to salvation throughout this current period to whatever degree. This is the only day of salvation. When Jesus comes the door is closed.
 
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Muna

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My apologies for taking it for granted you knew what Dispensationalism is. But basically, Jews come to salvation throughout this current period to whatever degree. This is the only day of salvation. When Jesus comes the door is closed.


No problem WPM, don't sweat it. Let me see if I am catching it (at least a little) without writing a novel over a simple thing (or maybe not so simple). It would seem like out of the natural branches of the nation of Israel who rejected Jesus (that was in Paul's day) there were reserved a remnant symbolized as the seven thousand God had spoken for in Elijahs day. Always "this remnant" (if there were not, they would have ended up like Sodom) and this remnant is the called by grace.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (1 Peter 1:2, Tutus 1:1)

God having not cast away his people (called by the name of Israel, who might even be so according to the flesh) because not all Israel is of Israel (or that remnant) the Gentiles are now joined to. Paul points out the God has not cast away his people because he himself is an Israelite (according to the flesh as well) his own blindness having been removed calling himself as one born out of due time (having received mercy in his own ignorance and unbelief) while the rest of his own kinsmen according to the flesh were blinded (and that blindness not lifted). These also being of the larger part of Israel (accoring to the flesh) out of which the few (the remnant, to which Paul belonged) would be saved (and to whom the Gentiles, who believed in Christ were joined to)

Romans 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
a remnant shall be saved

As Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see,
and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

Then Paul says,

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

So no, salvation is come to the gentiles because of their unbelief, and God is choosing the foolish things of the world (of which we are) to confound the wise (Deut 4:6)

His intent is expressed here

Deut 32:1 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

Which Paul also took on to do so likewise as he explains

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Romans 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

So it appears more to me as being more about the receiving of them, as far as them being given life from the dead, not so much the last Gentile" person being saved

Paul continung (not as though you do not know all these scriptures) just posting them for reference

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;
that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Since it was the greater part of them were blinded the blindness of the same would be lifted at that time is what it appears to indicate, which would be at the fulness of the Gentiles is how I am understanding it.

So I was just looking at it as the fulness of times (as far as the same pertain to the Gentiles) in respects to their blindness being removed, but not so much as the last of Gentiles being saved.

Well, any more than (as we both might understand it) that anyone who may be an Israelite after the flesh (in whatever way they might be) cannot (some how, or in some way) receive Jesus Christ (now) simply because it might be "the times of the Gentiles"

I had not thought of it that way as far as someone elses argument might that go.

Am I off here, gone crooked, not catching something? Or maybe need some additional info on my course? Fill me in, I invite it.
 

rwb

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So I am not asking about some sort of ending of salvation for Gentiles but rather the receiving the natural branches into their own in the fullness of times (only that, as far as it might pertain to the times of the Gentiles).

Truly, we are, since the cross & resurrection living in the time of the Gentiles. Paul (Ro 11) does not say the natural branches will be received after the fullness of the Gentiles have come into the good olive tree. Paul says it is through the Gentiles (wild olive branches) being received into the good olive tree, that all Israel shall be saved once the last of the Gentiles (wild branches) have become one with the good olive tree. In other words, "all Israel" is NOT Israel in unbelief, rather "all Israel that shall be saved" is "the Israel of God" who are both Jews of faith and Gentiles of faith. Even the natural branches who are at this present time in unbelief might be grafted back into the good olive tree IF they do NOT remain in unbelief.

Galatians 6:15-16 (KJV) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
 

ScottA

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When Jesus comes the door is closed.
That is a poor and inaccurate way of describing the return of Christ.

As He said, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me." That is not a closed door on Jesus part, but a door closed at the time of original sin, better described as an open door, or an open door opportunity--opened by Christ.

In other words, the door is made available to be opened by Christ to those who answer and open the door to Him. If that door is not opened when He knocks, He even continues to knock, even to the last moment.

But surely you are referring rather to the door leading to life everlasting, which many find closed after they too are raised up in the resurrection, when it is too late to be opened.
 
M

Muna

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Truly, we are, since the cross & resurrection living in the time of the Gentiles. Paul (Ro 11) does not say the natural branches will be received after the fullness of the Gentiles have come into the good olive tree. Paul says it is through the Gentiles (wild olive branches) being received into the good olive tree, that all Israel shall be saved once the last of the Gentiles (wild branches) have become one with the good olive tree. In other words, "all Israel" is NOT Israel in unbelief, rather "all Israel that shall be saved" is "the Israel of God" who are both Jews of faith and Gentiles of faith. Even the natural branches who are at this present time in unbelief might be grafted back into the good olive tree IF they do NOT remain in unbelief.

Galatians 6:15-16 (KJV) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

I do not disagree there rwb (and by the way are you an Amill?) Because I understand the WPM is and some Prmills might jump in and I gotta quickly figure that out before going on.

But just remaining in Romans (concerning the natural branches)

Romans 11:30
[30] For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
[31] Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
[32] For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
[33] O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

This is speaking of these not now believing also
 

WPM

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No problem WPM, don't sweat it. Let me see if I am catching it (at least a little) without writing a novel over a simple thing (or maybe not so simple). It would seem like out of the natural branches of the nation of Israel who rejected Jesus (that was in Paul's day) there were reserved a remnant symbolized as the seven thousand God had spoken for in Elijahs day. Always "this remnant" (if there were not, they would have ended up like Sodom) and this remnant is the called by grace.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (1 Peter 1:2, Tutus 1:1)

God having not cast away his people (called by the name of Israel, who might even be so according to the flesh) because not all Israel is of Israel (or that remnant) the Gentiles are now joined to. Paul points out the God has not cast away his people because he himself is an Israelite (according to the flesh as well) his own blindness having been removed calling himself as one born out of due time (having received mercy in his own ignorance and unbelief) while the rest of his own kinsmen according to the flesh were blinded (and that blindness not lifted). These also being of the larger part of Israel (accoring to the flesh) out of which the few (the remnant, to which Paul belonged) would be saved (and to whom the Gentiles, who believed in Christ were joined to)

Romans 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
a remnant shall be saved

As Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see,
and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

Then Paul says,

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

So no, salvation is come to the gentiles because of their unbelief, and God is choosing the foolish things of the world (of which we are) to confound the wise (Deut 4:6)

His intent is expressed here

Deut 32:1 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

Which Paul also took on to do so likewise as he explains

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Romans 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

So it appears more to me as being more about the receiving of them, as far as them being given life from the dead, not so much the last Gentile" person being saved

Paul continung (not as though you do not know all these scriptures) just posting them for reference

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;
that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Since it was the greater part of them were blinded the blindness of the same would be lifted at that time is what it appears to indicate, which would be at the fulness of the Gentiles is how I am understanding it.

So I was just looking at it as the fulness of times (as far as the same pertain to the Gentiles) in respects to their blindness being removed, but not so much as the last of Gentiles being saved.

Well, any more than (as we both might understand it) that anyone who may be an Israelite after the flesh (in whatever way they might be) cannot (some how, or in some way) receive Jesus Christ (now) simply because it might be "the times of the Gentiles"

I had not thought of it that way as far as someone elses argument might that go.

Am I off here, gone crooked, not catching something? Or maybe need some additional info on my course? Fill me in, I invite it.
Spot on! Well put!

When is the fulness of the Gentiles come in? When Christ returns. Manifestly, Israel are not all blinded; a remnant will continue to believe (as they always have). The engrafting isn't restricted to an end-time mass repentance by the whole nation (prior to the Lord's coming) as Dispensationalists seem to imagine (although a sizeable company of Jews may be saved at the end).
 
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rwb

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Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;
that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Since it was the greater part of them were blinded the blindness of the same would be lifted at that time is what it appears to indicate, which would be at the fulness of the Gentiles is how I am understanding it.

You were on the right track until you got to Ro 11:25, read in context with v 26. As you can read, Paul is NOT saying once the fullness of the Gentiles have been saved, then the blindness in part in Israel shall be lifted. These verses are showing how all Israel shall be saved once the Gentiles of faith and Jews of faith are complete, having entered into the Kingdom of God in heaven through the Spirit of Christ within is the manner in which all Israel shall be saved.

Romans 11:25-26 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
 
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rwb

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I do not disagree there rwb (and by the way are you an Amill?) Because I understand the WPM is and some Prmills might jump in and I gotta quickly figure that out before going on.

But just remaining in Romans (concerning the natural branches)

Romans 11:30
[30] For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
[31] Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
[32] For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
[33] O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

This is speaking of these not now believing also

Yes, like WPM I too am Amill. It is the only end time biblical doctrine that is reconciled with the whole of Scripture. Premill cannot be reconciled, and is content to force contradiction and confusion upon the Word of God.
 
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WPM

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That is a poor and inaccurate way of describing the return of Christ.

As He said, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me." That is not a closed door on Jesus part, but a door closed at the time of original sin, better described as an open door, or an open door opportunity--opened by Christ.

In other words, the door is made available to be opened by Christ to those who answer and open the door to Him. If that door is not opened when He knocks, He even continues to knock, even to the last moment.

But surely you are referring rather to the door leading to life everlasting, which many find closed after they too are raised up in the resurrection, when it is too late to be opened.
Jesus said in Matthew 25:6,10-13,at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him … and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.”

This is when the opportunity of salvation finally closes. This is when the door is finally closed. We are reminded of the continual directive of the Lord, and of Scripture, for God’s people to “watch” and be “ready” for His return. The Preterists would have us believe that this pertains to AD70. Listening to them, you would think Jesus was as obsessed with that date as they are. Frankly, nothing is more ridiculous! He was constantly exhorting them to prepare for His glorious return.

God closed the ark and the destructive floods came immediately lasting 40 days, although the water remained on the earth 150 days until the ark rested on Ararat. Jesus said, "the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all(Luke 17:27). The Lord goes from "days" (plural) to "day" to show that he is talking of an individual day of destruction. Christ reinforces the fact that it was an individual day by also using the days/days contrast re Sodom's judgement, He emphasizes, the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all (v29). And then concludes, “Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed (or) apokaluptetai” (v 30).

The deliverance of the redeemed and the destruction of the wicked are shown to be a simultaneous event. They occur on “the same day.”
 
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Muna

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Spot on! Well put!

When is the fulness of the Gentiles come in? When Christ returns. Manifestly, Israel are not all blinded; a remnant will continue to believe (as they always have). The engrafting isn't restricted to an end-time mass repentance by the whole nation (prior to the Lord's coming) as Dispensationalists seem to imagine (although a sizeable company of Jews may be saved at the end).

Thats good then, that we have an understanding, thanks for grazing over the thing and letting me know we could be in the same page here.

I sure havent even gotten so far in what I understand yet in all end times things, just inching forward as I go along.
 
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WPM

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Thats good then, that we have an understanding, thanks for grazing over the thing and letting me know we could be in the same page here.

I sure havent even gotten so far in what I understand yet in all end times things, just inching forward as I go along.
Keep your thoughts / questions coming. They are great!
 
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