Only Those Who Do the Will of God Will Enter the Kingdom

[GracePeace]

Great! I love that!! He is comforting you- trust Him!!

It should not confuse you. We serve out of love not fear of torment.

I don't see the problem. We love in deeds and words because isn't it hypocritical to say one thing but do another? If we really so love our deeds will follow our words. If we say we love God and yet disregard the needs of others is that loving? Would you help someone who needed help or would you say you are too busy? Isn't doing good things that honor God what you prefer to do?

Yes it's in our nature to want to repay. But we can't. It's too tall of an order to fill. We are sinners- Christ was sinless and ONLY he could pay our debt. And He did- our job is to believe Him.- FULLY believe that His "work" on the cross is our very salvation.
Our obedience while necessary proof of a changed heart/born again/ a new creature is a result of accepting that TRUTH.

1) We should stay connected to Him- without Him we can do nothing. We are to abide. That doesn't threaten me- I want to abide in Him. Don't you?
2) if we go on sinning-haven't you changed the way you live? you don't purposefully live sinfully anymore do you?
3) james- if we don't do what we know is right- to us that is a sin. Yes, but how does that show you salvation is by works? It doesn't say that- if you went out tonight and got drunk and had sex you would know that's wrong and it would be a sin to you.. isn't that right? Or if someone in need asked you for 20 bucks and you said you didn't have it.. even tho you did- isn't that wrong? This is not earning salvation- you are confusing the two. Doing good is proof of a changed heart and walking in new life by the Spirit not the lusts of the flesh.
4) make every effort to go in the narrow gate- the wide gate is full of people who think they have been "good enough" to earn heaven.. the wide gate is also full of people who hate God. - the narrow gate is those who have been humbled and trust in the truth of Christ's work for salvation and whose hearts have been circumcised to hearts of flesh- therefore they live a life that pleases Him.- they belong to Him and follow His voice.

Fear that involves torment is not for the believer- love needs to be perfected in you. as John said. The only way to do that is to FULLY accept that you are saved by Jesus' work and not your own. Your works can not save you!!!!! <---Get that FIRST!
THEY are PROOF that you do belong to Him--

Again- try walking in love and faith if you don't fully believe that Jesus' blood saves you. You can't. When you DO understand and believe that-- you wont see this as a "requirement" but as a result of his love for you.-- bubbling forth out of you to others.
If you were forgiven much- you will forgive others. unless you are a jerk, right? forgetting ho w much you were forgiven?
and so on. we treat others the loving way we have been treated by God.. It is only logical and fair.

I 'don't understand this response.

If you are a person who believes salvation cannot be lost, you cannot help me, because you don't deal with the same problems as I do, because you read the Scriptures differently than I do. Do you believe in OSAS?

 

[LoveYeshua]

I guess what sticks in my craw is being told "salvation is a gift", but also being told that I will go to hell if I don't obey, but, then, also, not allowing me to fear. I'm being threatened, but I'm not allowed to acknowledge I am being threatened! It doesn't make sense. Then, I try to obey to enter the narrow gate--and God is still with me, out of His love and patience--but that's still also wrong! "No, serve only out of love." Well, what if I don't? "You'll go to hell." So, serve, or else you'll go to hell, but you'd better do it completely out of love, or else your service is not accepted, and you'll go to hell. How does that make sense? How can you accept that or live that?

I can really hear the honesty and pain in what you’re saying. What you’re wrestling with is not small — it’s a real and deep struggle that countless sincere people have faced. You’re not “broken” or “faithless” for asking these questions; you’re trying to understand something that is genuinely hard to reconcile.

The idea of salvation as a free gift and yet also being warned about consequences can feel contradictory and even oppressive. But the fact that you’re wrestling shows your heart is seeking truth, not just blindly following out of fear. That’s something good.

Remember, in many Christian traditions, God’s love and grace are not meant to be a trap where you have to “get it perfectly” or be lost. The heart of the gospel is that God knows our weakness and meets us there. Obedience out of love isn’t about manufacturing perfect feelings; it’s about growing in trust over time. Even your doubts and fears can be part of that journey.

You’re allowed to be honest with God about your confusion, your fear, even your anger. Scripture itself is full of people who cried out in frustration and doubt. And yet God stayed with them. That’s His character.


It’s okay if you don’t have it all sorted out right now. The very act of seeking, questioning, and being real before God can be an expression of faith. You’re not alone in this — and you’re not beyond His patience or care.

Get closer to Christ, talk to him, the Holy Spirit will transform you but you have to be patient and persist, you will be answered, the Father in Heaven will hear you and give you what you need to grow

 

[GracePeace]

I can really hear the honesty and pain in what you’re saying. What you’re wrestling with is not small — it’s a real and deep struggle that countless sincere people have faced. You’re not “broken” or “faithless” for asking these questions; you’re trying to understand something that is genuinely hard to reconcile.

The idea of salvation as a free gift and yet also being warned about consequences can feel contradictory and even oppressive. But the fact that you’re wrestling shows your heart is seeking truth, not just blindly following out of fear. That’s something good.

Remember, in many Christian traditions, God’s love and grace are not meant to be a trap where you have to “get it perfectly” or be lost. The heart of the gospel is that God knows our weakness and meets us there. Obedience out of love isn’t about manufacturing perfect feelings; it’s about growing in trust over time. Even your doubts and fears can be part of that journey.

You’re allowed to be honest with God about your confusion, your fear, even your anger. Scripture itself is full of people who cried out in frustration and doubt. And yet God stayed with them. That’s His character.


It’s okay if you don’t have it all sorted out right now. The very act of seeking, questioning, and being real before God can be an expression of faith. You’re not alone in this — and you’re not beyond His patience or care.

Get closer to Christ, talk to him, the Holy Spirit will transform you but you have to be patient and persist, you will be answered, the Father in Heaven will hear you and give you what you need to grow

Am I correct that this is from ChatGPT ?

 

[PS95]

I guess what sticks in my craw is being told "salvation is a gift", but also being told that I will go to hell if I don't obey, but, then, also, not allowing me to fear. I'm being threatened, but I'm not allowed to acknowledge I am being threatened! It doesn't make sense. Then, I try to obey to enter the narrow gate--and God is still with me, out of His love and patience--but that's still also wrong! "No, serve only out of love." Well, what if I don't? "You'll go to hell." So, serve, or else you'll go to hell, but you'd better do it completely out of love, or else your service is not accepted, and you'll go to hell. How does that make sense? How can you accept that or live that?

I think it is what bothers you. You don't fully grasp yet that salvation is a GIFT. I hope that you can try to separate faith and works and see that one ignites the other. If you go through life thinking that your obedience saves you, you will never understand. we are saved- we are being saved and we will be saved..
Have you ever- even if it only lasted a short time-- fully believed that Jesus blood saves you-- and rejoiced in that? Ever?
Putting works aside totally .. ever?
Because that is where the peace is.. In trusting God to bring you all the way to His side.

 

[GracePeace]

I think it is what bothers you. You don't fully grasp yet that salvation is a GIFT. I hope that you can try to separate faith and works and see that one ignites the other. If you go through life thinking that your obedience saves you, you will never understand. we are saved- we are being saved and we will be saved..

It's insulting--insulting that it seems like I am being told to believe something that is inconceivable.
"You had better obey Me, or I'll send you to hell, but you're not allowed to fear going to hell while you're obeying, you can only love. Don't acknowledge that I said I'd send you to hell, just love."

Yeah, salvation is a gift, like the Jews' salvation from Egypt, but their behavior AFTER having been saved was apparently STRONGER than the gift, thus more important than the gift, thus rendering the gift ineffective or incomplete or irrelevant.

Have you ever- even if it only lasted a short time-- fully believed that Jesus blood saves you-- and rejoiced in that? Ever?

Putting works aside totally .. ever?
Because that is where the peace is.. In trusting God to bring you all the way to His side.

I've had a couple of experiences like that. It's very confusing.

 

[GracePeace]

I think it is what bothers you. You don't fully grasp yet that salvation is a GIFT. I hope that you can try to separate faith and works and see that one ignites the other. If you go through life thinking that your obedience saves you, you will never understand. we are saved- we are being saved and we will be saved..
Have you ever- even if it only lasted a short time-- fully believed that Jesus blood saves you-- and rejoiced in that? Ever?
Putting works aside totally .. ever?
Because that is where the peace is.. In trusting God to bring you all the way to His side.

It really depends on your definition of "salvation". Paul says our "salvation" was foreshadowed, defined, by the Jews' "salvation" from slavery in Egypt (and Jesus says sin is like slavery in John 8), but, as we see, their behavior, after their salvation, was a greater consideration in God's eyes than their "salvation", and they did not inherit what was promised to them because of their misbehavior despite their having been "saved". Maybe it would not be wrong to rejoice in our having been "reconciled" (Ro 5), though. Supposedly, we have "peace" (Ro 5:1), too.

 

[GracePeace]

I think it is what bothers you. You don't fully grasp yet that salvation is a GIFT. I hope that you can try to separate faith and works and see that one ignites the other. If you go through life thinking that your obedience saves you, you will never understand. we are saved- we are being saved and we will be saved..
Have you ever- even if it only lasted a short time-- fully believed that Jesus blood saves you-- and rejoiced in that? Ever?
Putting works aside totally .. ever?
Because that is where the peace is.. In trusting God to bring you all the way to His side.

I've been trying to get up the courage to change this overhead bathroom exhaust fan (lots of dust and dirt involved, and I'm somewhat of a germophobe), but lots of stuff has been coming up, getting in the way, and I have to go to dialysis tomorrow, and I am terrified of the shame I will feel tomorrow if I don't get this done today ("deliver me from my reproach, which I dread" lol), so I have to step away for a bit, and be a man about this task. Wish me well.

 

[Soyeong]

Please be more concise. I don't know what you're saying.

Ro 7:1 distinguishes Jewish believers as knowing the Law--meaning Paul knows Gentile believers don't know the Law.

Yes, they do the Law--this all the more proves Ro 3:31 and 8:4, etc, etc, that being obedient to Grace makes you fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law without being under Law.

I showed that the Law of God is in accordance with the Spirit of grace it is incorrect to interpret following the letter as referring to correctly obeying it. The goal of the Law of God is to teach us how to know God Jesus by being a doer of His character traits, which is the narrow way to eternal life, and God's character traits are the fruits of the Spirit, which is why the Spirit has he role of leading us to obey it. Rather, following the letter refers to going through the motions of obeying the Law of God while neglecting to be a doer of the character traits of God that it was given to teach us how to embody.

Not all Jews know the law and the fact that there are Jews who know the law does not imply that there aren't any Gentiles who know it. In Psalms 119:29, he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so being obedient to grace makes us fulfill the law because we know it and are under it.

 

[GracePeace]

I showed that the Law of God is in accordance with the Spirit of grace it is incorrect to interpret following the letter as referring to correctly obeying it. The goal of the Law of God is to teach us how to know God Jesus by being a doer of His character traits, which is the narrow way to eternal life, and God's character traits are the fruits of the Spirit, which is why the Spirit has he role of leading us to obey it. Rather, following the letter refers to going through the motions of obeying the Law of God while neglecting to be a doer of the character traits of God that it was given to teach us how to embody.

As Scripture has already corrected you--and you have furnished no response--if your conclusion is that Gentiles have to learn Torah to be Christian, you are in error, because the New Covenant says God writes His Law (what He wants people to do) on hearts and minds, and we see this coming to fruition with the Gentiles who do not possess or know the Law being deemed doers of the Law who will be justified in the Day of Judgment (Ro 2:6-16).

According to you, they couldn't be doers of the Law justified in the Day of Judgment, because they don't know Torah--God knows differently, that He put His Spirit in them and caused them to walk in His statutes, because the New Covenant is "not like the Covenant" God made before.

Not all Jews know the law and the fact that there are Jews who know the law does not imply that there aren't any Gentiles who know it. In Psalms 119:29, he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so being obedient to grace makes us fulfill the law because we know it and are under it.

Who said every ethnic Jew knew the Law? The point is Paul specifically defines the Jewish believers in his audience as those who knew the Law, so that, by process of elimination, we know that he also knows that the Gentile believers do not know the Torah, which is evident, and naturally follows, from the fact that they don't possess the Law (Ro 2:14).

We are not under Law (Ro 6:14)--not a single word you've said against things I've said is justifiable.

 

[PS95]

If you are a person who believes salvation cannot be lost, you cannot help me, because you don't deal with the same problems as I do, because you read the Scriptures differently than I do. Do you believe in OSAS?

I don't believe it in the way that it is defined here that's for sure. Some say you are saved in an instant and that never wavers no matter your behavior- you can walk away from the faith and live in all manner of sins and you are still saved. No, I don't believe that at all. It is totally unscriptural.
I believe we must abide in Him aka remain in His love.- The Spirit in us urges us to live a certain way and convicts us of sin and we are to put the deeds of the flesh to death by the Spirit. We have that power now since sin no longer has dominion over us. That is a part of our salvation but it is not "earning" it. We cant earn it! What I do believe is that as I abide and the Spirit urges me to- I am secure. If I stray He reminds me.. and I return. He doesn't lose His sheep.
If I chose to grieve the Spirit and leave the faith and live in sins and die in those sins- am I saved? No of course not. Do I think that will happen to me? No. I trust that God will keep me. But do I have free will to leave the faith or am I now a puppet? could I spit in the face of His grace? I sure don't think so- but I do know people who have.
People argue over this and I have no interest in their arguments. Scriptures say what they say. There are some for and some against- I believe them all not just half.

What I want to say to you is this-- God has given you some very powerful words- some many people will never hear... such as
"don't try to earn it" peace- the son- rest"
GracePeace- He is giving you the desires of your heart. Take His words as total TRUTH and hide them deep in your heart- treasure them always and BELIEVE God. You wont have rest until you do. .God wants you to have peace and rest and has told you this. How wonderful!
Any other voice is a LIE.-- I urge you to run straight to the Lord for comfort every time you doubt His words to you.

 

[GracePeace]

I don't believe it in the way that it is defined here that's for sure. Some say you are saved in an instant and that never wavers no matter your behavior- you can walk away from the faith and live in all manner of sins and you are still saved. No, I don't believe that at all. It is totally unscriptural.
I believe we must abide in Him aka remain in His love.- The Spirit in us urges us to live a certain way and convicts us of sin and we are to put the deeds of the flesh to death by the Spirit. We have that power now since sin no longer has dominion over us. That is a part of our salvation but it is not "earning" it. We cant earn it! What I do believe is that as I abide and the Spirit urges me to- I am secure. If I stray He reminds me.. and I return. He doesn't lose His sheep.
If I chose to grieve the Spirit and leave the faith and live in sins and die in those sins- am I saved? No of course not. Do I think that will happen to me? No. I trust that God will keep me. But do I have free will to leave the faith or am I now a puppet? could I spit in the face of His grace? I sure don't think so- but I do know people who have.
People argue over this and I have no interest in their arguments. Scriptures say what they say. There are some for and some against- I believe them all not just half.

Do you believe "if I TRULY believe I won't walk away--if people walk away it just proves they never TRULY believed"?

 

[PS95]

It's insulting--insulting that it seems like I am being told to believe something that is inconceivable.
"You had better obey Me, or I'll send you to hell, but you're not allowed to fear going to hell while you're obeying, you can only love. Don't acknowledge that I said I'd send you to hell, just love."

GraceP- again, if obeying God to you is a burden then you are missing LOVE. If as you have said- threats inspire you- then I suppose you want to hang onto to threats of punishment since you thrive on that. It's insane to me. I don't get this. As John wrote- being in fear of torment means you lack LOVE. That is the problem that I see in you too. You flat out refuse to accept that you cant work for it or earn it-- God has spoken to you and you still won't believe- what is there left for me to do? If you don't believe God Himself why would you believe me?

Yeah, salvation is a gift, like the Jews' salvation from Egypt, but their behavior AFTER having been saved was apparently STRONGER than the gift, thus more important than the gift, thus rendering the gift ineffective or incomplete or irrelevant.

I've had a couple of experiences like that. It's very confusing.

The Jews never had Jesus on the cross bearing their sins on His body in the OT. They do now- but refuse to believe. They can't see LOVE when it is smack in front of their faces. It's a serious matter.
Trust- the Jews in the OT did not TRUST God- did not BELIEVE God- they wanted to do it their way.
We come to Christ on HIs conditions and not on our own. If you can't see his pure complete LOVE on the cross I can't make you see.

 

[PS95]

Do you believe "if I TRULY believe I won't walk away--if people walk away it just proves they never TRULY believed"?

Does it matter? They walked away... like I said- can you spit in the face of grace and be saved? NO.

 

[GracePeace]

GraceP- again, if obeying God to you is a burden then you are missing LOVE. If as you have said- threats inspire you- then I suppose you want to hang onto to threats of punishment since you thrive on that. It's insane to me. I don't get this. As John wrote- being in fear of torment means you lack LOVE.

To me, there is no purpose to life other than not getting a beating--and when you claim Christ makes sure I'm not going to get a beating, purpose has been removed from life, and to say "Now, serve out of love", I see no point, but if you say "Well, if you don't serve out of love, you'll get a beating", then that makes me feel like I'm being lied to about "Jesus", and how "Jesus" saved me from a beating. It's like someone is trying to sell me a lemon (car). I want to be spoken to directly and clearly.

That is the problem that I see in you too. You flat out refuse to accept that you cant work for it or earn it--

Yet if you don't work you won't get into heaven, so...

God has spoken to you and you still won't believe- what is there left for me to do? If you don't believe God Himself why would you believe me?

Being called a "son" is a completely lifeless irrelevant meaningless word. I'm sure it means something to God, but, to me, it is utterly empty.

The Jews never had Jesus on the cross bearing their sins on His body in the OT.

Argue with Paul, who wrote the Scriptures.

 

[GracePeace]

Does it matter?

Yes.
If you say, "If I were to do x, then I would be eligible for loss of salvation, but that could never occur, because Scripture teaches that God will make sure that that doesn't happen," you do not read the Scripture the same way I do, thus you are not impacted by Scripture as I am, do not have the same reaction to Scripture working in you as I do, so, in that sense, you can't help guide me through the "place" I am at.

 

[PS95]

I've been trying to get up the courage to change this overhead bathroom exhaust fan (lots of dust and dirt involved, and I'm somewhat of a germophobe), but lots of stuff has been coming up, getting in the way, and I have to go to dialysis tomorrow, and I am terrified of the shame I will feel tomorrow if I don't get this done today ("deliver me from my reproach, which I dread" lol), so I have to step away for a bit, and be a man about this task. Wish me well.

GP- a germophobe. Do you suffer from OCD? I know how hard it is for OCD people to understand their faith. Do yourself a BIG favor- take the most uplifting inspiring verses from the bible--- Below are 3 off the top of my head- that you need to embrace fully-

Write those verses on full sized paper and tape them to the bathroom mirror- the tv- the place where you sit- by your bedside lamp - the frig etc.. all over-- in your car--and read them ALOUD every time you see one.
SINK these truths in your heart and mind. Do it until you know them by heart and believe them and jump for joy. This helped a person with OCD that i know.. Yes, Obsess over them!
the rest will come together in time..
Eph 2:
8For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Titus 3
4But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.
2 Tim 1
8Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher [c]of the Gentiles. 12For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.


Peace be with you.

 

[Soyeong]

As Scripture has already corrected you--and you have furnished no response--

Which Scriptures do you think have corrected me that I have finished no response to? You asked me to be concise, so I gave summary of what I said.

if your conclusion is that Gentiles have to learn Torah to be Christian, you are in error, because the New Covenant says God writes His Law (what He wants people to do) on hearts and minds, and we see this coming to fruition with the Gentiles who do not possess or know the Law being deemed doers of the Law who will be justified in the Day of Judgment (Ro 2:6-16).

In Matthew 4:15-23, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Torah was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message. Christ also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6). Christ also quoted three times from Deuteronomy in order to defeat the temptations of Satan, which included saying that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God, so Christ spent his ministry teaching teaching his followers to obey the Torah by word and by example and being a Christian is about being a follower of what Christ taught, not about refusing to follow him. The reason why Christ established the New Covenant was not in order to nullify anything that he spent his ministry teaching or so that we could continue to have the same lawlessness that caused the New Covenant to be needed in the first place, but rather the New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33).

Someone can't choose to act apart from having knowledge of what they are doing.

According to you, they couldn't be doers of the Law justified in the Day of Judgment, because they don't know Torah--God knows differently, that He put His Spirit in them and caused them to walk in His statutes, because the New Covenant is "not like the Covenant" God made before.

I did not claim either that Gentiles couldn't be doers of the law justified in the Day of Judgment or that Gentiles don't know the Torah, so that is not according to me.

Who said every ethnic Jew knew the Law? The point is Paul specifically defines the Jewish believers in his audience as those who knew the Law, so that, by process of elimination, we know that he also knows that the Gentile believers do not know the Torah, which is evident, and naturally follows, from the fact that they don't possess the Law (Ro 2:14).

It either neither the case that every Jews knows the law or that no Gentile knows it. Paul addressing his brothers who knew the law, which does not imply that no one else knows it. If someone didn't know the law, then they couldn't be a doer of it.

We are not under Law (Ro 6:14)

While I agree that we are not under the law, Paul described the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe the Law of God, but rather that is the role of the law of sin. In Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and in Romans 3:20, it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin is, so we are still under it, but are not under the law of sin. Moreover, everything else in Romans 6 speaks in favor of obedience to the Torah and against sin.

--not a single word you've said against things I've said is justifiable.

Only if you ignore most of what I said.

 

[GracePeace]

GP- a germophobe. Do you suffer from OCD? I know how hard it is for OCD people to understand their faith. Do yourself a BIG favor- take the most uplifting inspiring verses from the bible--- Below are 3 off the top of my head- that you need to embrace fully-

Write those verses on full sized paper and tape them to the bathroom mirror- the tv- the place where you sit- by your bedside lamp - the frig etc.. all over-- in your car--and read them ALOUD every time you see one.
SINK these truths in your heart and mind. Do it until you know them by heart and believe them and jump for joy. This helped a person with OCD that i know.. Yes, Obsess over them!
the rest will come together in time..
Eph 2:
8For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Titus 3
4But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.
2 Tim 1
8Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher [c]of the Gentiles. 12For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.


Peace be with you.

Thanks, but "salvation" just equates to the Jews' deliverance from Egypt--their behavior AFTER having been saved determined their standing with God, not their having been saved.

 

[GracePeace]

Which Scriptures do you think have corrected me that I have finished no response to? You asked me to be concise, so I gave summary of what I said.

You already know--Ro 2:6-16,26,27, where the Gentile believers, who neither possess nor know the Law, are deemed "doers of the Law" who "will be justified" on the Day of Judgment and repaid eternal life.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Torah was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message. Christ also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6). Christ also quoted three times from Deuteronomy in order to defeat the temptations of Satan, which included saying that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God, so Christ spent his ministry teaching teaching his followers to obey the Torah by word and by example and being a Christian is about being a follower of what Christ taught, not about refusing to follow him. The reason why Christ established the New Covenant was not in order to nullify anything that he spent his ministry teaching or so that we could continue to have the same lawlessness that caused the New Covenant to be needed in the first place, but rather the New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33).

Someone can't choose to act apart from having knowledge of what they are doing.

I could pick through this, correcting the many errors, but let's cut to the chase : if you insist that Christians must know Torah in order to serve God as Christians, you're going to find a huge issue with Romans 2:6-16. It's a "clue", or a "hint", for your own good, showing you your error, to bring you in to a better, more consistent and coherent understanding of what is being taught.

I did not claim either that Gentiles couldn't be doers of the law justified in the Day of Judgment or that Gentiles don't know the Torah, so that is not according to me.

Maybe English is not your first language, but I never said that you said that Gentiles couldn't be doers of the Law, nor that you said that Gentiles don't know Torah (I understand very well that that is MY position you disagree with). I don't think we should engage in this discussion if you are going to be constantly misunderstanding me--it is difficult enough to navigate the topic with an English-speaker, let alone someone who is unacquainted with both the Scriptures and the English language he's trying to discuss those Scriptures in.

It either neither the case that every Jews knows the law

Again, I never said every Jew knew the Law. Remember that. Stop straw manning my position.

or that no Gentile knows it.

Again, you're arguing against Paul : in the ancient world, in general, one of the distinctions between Jews and Gentiles was that the Jew possessed and knew the Law and the Gentile neither possessed nor knew the Law. This is echoed, again, in his categorization of humans into the two, "those who sinned under Law" and "those who sinned without Law" (Ro 2).

You're trying really hard to argue your case, but you're tripping over all sorts of things in Scripture that you can't see.

Paul addressing his brothers who knew the law, which does not imply that no one else knows it.

When Paul says "because I speak to those who know the Law", it means, in his mind, he knows that it is his "brothers", fellow recipients of "the oracles of God" (Ro 3), who, unlike those who are not his "brothers" (unlike "Gentiles"), "know the Law".
Why?
The Gentiles don't have the Law.
How are they "doers of the Law" then?
God writes it on the heart and mind in the New Covenant of Grace.

If someone didn't know the law, then they couldn't be a doer of it.

Oops, God writes the Law on hearts and minds, so they can be doers of it--as evinced in, for instance, Romans 2.
Under the Old Covenant, Pentecost was when the "fiery Law", the Torah, was given (according to tradition); in the New Covenant, however, Pentecost is when the Holy Spirit was given. I don't think this is merely a "coincidence". The Law told people what to do before, but, now, the Spirit tells people what to do--"serve not in oldness of the Letter but in newness of the Spirit".

While I agree that we are not under the law, Paul described the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe the Law of God, but rather that is the role of the law of sin.

Nope, God's Law is cast as opposite Sin's Law. Sin is anthropomorphized as a ruler opposite God. God has a Law, and Sin has a Law. The Law we are not under is the Law of Moses, and, and Paul says, the result is that Sin will not master us (make us its slave) BECAUSE we are not under the Law of Moses, BECAUSE sin utilizes the good and holy Law to work sin in us (Ro 7), just as 1 Co 15 says "The strength of sin is the Law".
This is also why Ro 8:3 says "what the Law could not do, in that it was weakened through the flesh" : the Law turns you to your flesh, and, there, you find "nothing good" wherewith you might fulfill the good requirement of the good Law. When you turn to Grace, however, God is perfectly good, and full of goodness, which is why the righteous requirement of the Law is fulfilled in you if you walk in the Spirit / serve in newness of the Spirit of Grace.

In Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin

When did I ever say you were permitted to "indulge in the flesh" (Col 2:23)?

and in Romans 3:20, it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin is,

Yeah, Paul's point is that it isn't the way to be righteous.

so we are still under it

Oops, you're transgressing Romans 6:14 "you are not under Law".

but are not under the law of sin.

We never were "under" the Law of Sin--when Paul says "you are not under Law but under Grace", that corresponds with "serve not in oldness of the letter but in newness of the spirit [of grace]".
I would provide more proofs, but I suspect you, like all other so-called "Torah observant" Christians, are not open to evidence. We'll see, based on your response, if I am right.

Only if you ignore most of what I said.

Sorry, from what I've seen, and as I've proven, you have only scant knowledge of Scripture.

 

[GracePeace]

GP- a germophobe. Do you suffer from OCD?

Yeah, OCD, PTSD, who knows what else.