Bible Study: The Gospel is in the Torah

[Behold]

That's just one example. That's where I stopped reading that particular post.

Trying to be a shield and a shill for Episkopos, is really not something you need to be doing on a public forum @Laurina
Find a better purpose to be on this forum, that actually serves God.

So, let me show you some facts, about Salvation.

= God is Righteousness.
= Heaven contains only Righteousness, including all who are there.
= The KOG.. is only Rightesousness.

See, Everything with God is Spiritual and RIGHTEOUSNESS........so, for a SINNER like you to become a part of Heaven <> KOG, then you have to become RIGHTEOUS.........to enter in..
You have to be "translated from (The kingdom of) Darkness .......TO LIGHT"... and This Light is God's Righteousness, that is the KOG.
You have to be transformed spiritually, by God into a "new creation" "In Christ". .. and that is when you have become "THE righteousness of God, IN CHRIST">
And you can't do that for youself, no matter what Epikopos the Legalist tells you to try to DO next according to His carnally warped theology.

So, what is left for you?

You have to become EQUAL to God's righteousness, in His viewpoint, to be allowed to be reconciled to HIM, as "one with God and "in Christ'.
The only way that can happen for you, is for Jesus to deal with you sin, and then God imputes to you His Righteousmess., as "THE Gift of Righteousess".... and that means you would become "made righteouses".......as Paul teaches.

This is explained by Paul as "The righteousness of Faith"..... = "the imputed righteousess"... and total "JUSTIFICATION by Faith".

 

[Episkopos]

Repentance from sin,

You aren't paying attention. Repentance from sin is on the righteousness level.

and faith in Christ., where is that in your Salvation. ?

Faith INTO Christ is on the holiness level.

That's what she's asking you, and your answer has nothing to do with her question exactly as your theology has nothing in it that correlates with Salvation as God provided it, as forgiveness and imputed righteousness.

It has nothing to do with your religious spin, you mean. Your gospel has neither righteousness NOR holiness in it. It is truly man-made.

 

[Behold]

You aren't paying attention. Repentance from sin is on the righteousness level.

Its a sinner who repents from sin.......so, claiming they are on the righteousness level is ridiculous., and theologically nuts.
Its impossible for a sinner to have any righteousness, unless God gives them Righteousness, as "The Gift of Righteousness".

You are teaching that Christ Rejectors.....(Sinners) can have a level of righteousness.

That's not sane theology, but its certainly yours @Episkopos

Faith INTO Christ is on the holiness level.

Faith IN Chirst.......not "into Christ".........is to believe.....is Faith.......and God accepts our Faith to give us forgiveness and "imputed righteousness".

Your gospel has neither righteousness NOR holiness in it. It is truly man-made.

My Gospel is Paul's Gospel....."The Gospel of the GRACE of God". "without works or deeds of the Law".

= "Justificaiton BY faith".

You've never been a part of this Gospel, and that is why your self righteousness theology would claim that Paul's Gospel is "delusion".

 

[Lizbeth]

This is an extremist viewpoint that denies God's mercy. To the extremist it's all or nothing. That works for holiness...which you don't have. So by NOT having mercy you forego it yourself.

Twist things around if you will, but the point I am making is that you don't believe repentance is necessary for salvation. So kindly address the point if you wish to respond to my post.

 

[GracePeace]

Faith.

I don't condemn myself, knowing God does not condemn me.

It's that "or else" POV that triggers the flesh.

Romans 7:5 KJV
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

The Law moves the flesh to sin. The Law is, "or else".

Sin is forgiven, and Christ works righteousness in and through us, having made us holy and righteous in the inner man. The flesh already stands condemned, the new creation spirit is created patterned after God in righteousness and true holiness.

"Paul seems to speak about the mere prospect of doing good as a source of joy and hope,"

I never really thought about it this way, but yes! Christ in you, the hope (faith based expectation) of glory. Knowing the end is assured, that we are safe in the arms of Jesus, frees us from the fear of condemnation, and releases us to serve others in love, not concerned about purchasing our redemption, which was already purchased by Jesus' blood.

These two views are opposite each other. One is that we serve because we have a love in us that is showing itself though our actions and thoughts. The other is that we are under threat of death unless we obey, which we do as best we can, fearing for our lack of self control. The first lets the flesh rest, the second stirs up the flesh against us.

Much love!

"this grace in which we stand and rejoice in hope of God's glory" : I believe the "stand" relates to "stumble", so that the "stand" refers to righteousness, as we are "under Grace" as the means of service.

This approach Paul has to righteousness is the same as...

Galatians 5:5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

Paul seems to view the act of righteousness as a source of hope (connecting it with Romans 5, it is the hope we are filled with that God will get glory), and he contrasts this with being justified by works of the Law--and, in particular, the act of circumcision.

He certainly is not saying "if a Christian is circumcised, he is fallen from grace", because he has Timothy circumcised (Acts 16); his objection is to where the heart and mind are, what the intention is, when they do this-or-that. Are they living in light of what Christ has done, reacting to Christ, seeking God's glory (through seeking Christ's glory)? How can they seek God's glory if they are seeking their own glory (and the Law makes you look at yourself, so you can't escape boasting, glorifying self, not God)? When Paul had Timothy circumcised, it was "because of the Jews in that region", because he was filled with love for God, and love for those Jews, and he was filled with hope of the Gospel spreading to those Jews, he was not motivated by the thought, "Torah commands it, so we had better do it, or else Timothy can't be in right standing with God, and will remain 'cut off from among his people'."
So, as I have posited, his argument is not about works or no works, but about where their hearts and minds are--his answer to their seeking perfection by the flesh/works of the Law is "through love,serve one another"--and they're not on Christ, but are distracted from the simplicity of devotion to Christ by the complications of the Law (and it seems their background is not the Law--if their background was the Law, it would be permissible, as in Ro 14 "he who observes a day"). Paul's heart and mind was centered on Christ when he went to circumcise Timothy.

It may be that when you're not under Grace (or fully under Grace), there is a question of your standing with God until you do the thing, and only after you do the thing can you rest from that fear (and there is still a question, because, afterward there is still something else to do), whereas, under Grace, the prospect of doing right is a source of hope which you presently rejoice in, and walk in faith toward, not a source of dread you presently have a fear about.
In this sense, it is possible to be committing the error of being "under Law" (ie, without grace, or lacking grace) without literally being "under Law"--the Law is merely a species of "the knowledge of good and evil", and all men have "the knowledge of good and evil", so, in this sense, it is possible for any man to be "fallen from grace" even without explicitly being "under Law". I've given years of thought to this, because of things that have gone on in my own life.

The question would be how to have that hope. I know that Paul says "proven character produces hope", so maybe he means that after one has proven character, the doing of the good becomes less of a question, and more of a certainty, so that there is hope at the prospect of doing good... but, then, he couldn't say "we rejoice in hope of God's glory" to the Jewish believers he had just been correcting and warning about their having been guilty of hypocrisy (Ro 2), because they didn't have "proven character".

1 Corinthians 13: 13But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Galatians 5:5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

The love produces a hope (like what one has in a promise) which one walks toward in faith which is empowered by love.
In any event, when you're under Law, or, for this-or-that reason, "fallen from Grace", "the Law is not faith, but the one who does the things commanded will live", whereas "My righteous one will live by faith [the Spirit, eternal life, is obtained upon hearing with faith]"--and this would corresponds to "if you began by the Spirit are you being perfected by the flesh?", so that his expectation is they will not seek perfection by the flesh, but "through the Spirit await the hope of righteousness", which pertains to the love they have for God through Christ, and the hope that they have that they will do good, and that God, Whom they love, will get glory?

 

[marks]

The question would be how to have that hope. I know that Paul says "proven character produces hope", so maybe he means that after one has proven character,

Enduring through contrary circumstances (within and without) prove our faith genuine. Peirasmos is either testing or temptation. It's a contrary circumstance in which we have to choose to either endure as we meekly trust in Jesus, or take matters into our own hands, a fleshy response.

When that doen't go well, when the next trial comes, we choose to endure, and as we get more consistent with that, our sins fade away, because we aren't walking according to flesh.

If we come under the belief that we have to control our behavior so that we will remain reconciled to God, that's one of these contrary circumstances "within", and puts us under a legal standard, and is called in the Bible "fallen from grace", whether it be circumcision, or something else. The new covenant believer does not serve a list of rules, we serve the Living Christ Who lives within, and personally guides each of us.

Simply stated, we trust in Jesus and are justified. Then we need to learn that the same faith gives us access into the grace in which we stand. I relate this to Ephesians 6, that we are to stand in evil day, to put on this armor, and stand against the devil's evil schemes. I also relate it to what you've said, that we won't stumble. So that we neither stumble, or get knocked off our feet.

In this sense, it is possible to be committing the error of being "under Law" (ie, without grace, or lacking grace) without literally being "under Law"--the Law is merely a species of "the knowledge of good and evil", and all men have "the knowledge of good and evil", so, in this sense, it is possible for any man to be "fallen from grace" even without explicitly being "under Law". I've given years of thought to this, because of things that have gone on in my own life.

I can appreciate your years of thought on this, I can hear it in your words.

"because of things that have gone on in my life", I related to that as well. I think the same thing, it's more about a mindset of required performance that can become quite personal, based on whatever we happen to believe about this.

Jesus, in "the Lord's Prayer", said, "lead us not into temptation (peirasmos), but deliver us from evil. People ask sometimes why would God lead us into temptation? But what Jesus really said was to not lead us into those hardships through which we have to struggle and grow, but just deliver us from that evil that we are being trained to resist.

Having experienced both ways, I echo His prayer! But I trust His wisdom.

Romans 5:1-5 EMTV
1) Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2) through whom also we have had access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3) And not only that, but we also rejoice in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces endurance;
4) and endurance, character; and character, hope.
5) And hope does not put to shame, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

As we continue to be tested/tempted (test if we endure, tempt if we do not), we eventually learn our ways fail, and so we wait for God to work. We eventually accept that our only viable course for a good outcome is to wait for Him, and we learn how to deal with life even as we wait.

We learn how to not complain though it hurts. We learn how to not worry though it's unknown. We learn how to do without, or how to live with it, or whatever is needed to remain trusting and fruitful as we endure, and this is the building of our character.

As we see God delivering us though our troubles, we gain in confidence in His promises. As we see ourselves growing, we come to believe more firmly in His promises, and we trust that what He said He will do for us, that He will in fact do these things. This is our hope, our faith based expectation.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

Enduring through contrary circumstances (within and without) prove our faith genuine. Peirasmos is either testing or temptation. It's a contrary circumstance in which we have to choose to either endure as we meekly trust in Jesus, or take matters into our own hands, a fleshy response.

When that doen't go well, when the next trial comes, we choose to endure, and as we get more consistent with that, our sins fade away, because we aren't walking according to flesh.

If we come under the belief that we have to control our behavior so that we will remain reconciled to God, that's one of these contrary circumstances "within", and puts us under a legal standard, and is called in the Bible "fallen from grace", whether it be circumcision, or something else. The new covenant believer does not serve a list of rules, we serve the Living Christ Who lives within, and personally guides each of us.

Simply stated, we trust in Jesus and are justified. Then we need to learn that the same faith gives us access into the grace in which we stand. I relate this to Ephesians 6, that we are to stand in evil day, to put on this armor, and stand against the devil's evil schemes. I also relate it to what you've said, that we won't stumble. So that we neither stumble, or get knocked off our feet.


I can appreciate your years of thought on this, I can hear it in your words.

"because of things that have gone on in my life", I related to that as well. I think the same thing, it's more about a mindset of required performance that can become quite personal, based on whatever we happen to believe about this.

Jesus, in "the Lord's Prayer", said, "lead us not into temptation (peirasmos), but deliver us from evil. People ask sometimes why would God lead us into temptation? But what Jesus really said was to not lead us into those hardships through which we have to struggle and grow, but just deliver us from that evil that we are being trained to resist.

Having experienced both ways, I echo His prayer! But I trust His wisdom.

Romans 5:1-5 EMTV
1) Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2) through whom also we have had access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3) And not only that, but we also rejoice in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces endurance;
4) and endurance, character; and character, hope.
5) And hope does not put to shame, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

As we continue to be tested/tempted (test if we endure, tempt if we do not), we eventually learn our ways fail, and so we wait for God to work. We eventually accept that our only viable course for a good outcome is to wait for Him, and we learn how to deal with life even as we wait.

We learn how to not complain though it hurts. We learn how to not worry though it's unknown. We learn how to do without, or how to live with it, or whatever is needed to remain trusting and fruitful as we endure, and this is the building of our character.

As we see God delivering us though our troubles, we gain in confidence in His promises. As we see ourselves growing, we come to believe more firmly in His promises, and we trust that what He said He will do for us, that He will in fact do these things. This is our hope, our faith based expectation.

Much love!

I have had trouble balancing Ro 5:1 with Ro 14:5, 23, but it may be that the idea is that the person merely remains in the peace they already had in Ro 5:1, not that they are without peace, and finally obtain rest after doing the things they are convicted are correct.

 

[GracePeace]

Enduring through contrary circumstances (within and without) prove our faith genuine. Peirasmos is either testing or temptation. It's a contrary circumstance in which we have to choose to either endure as we meekly trust in Jesus, or take matters into our own hands, a fleshy response.

When that doen't go well, when the next trial comes, we choose to endure, and as we get more consistent with that, our sins fade away, because we aren't walking according to flesh.

If we come under the belief that we have to control our behavior so that we will remain reconciled to God, that's one of these contrary circumstances "within", and puts us under a legal standard, and is called in the Bible "fallen from grace", whether it be circumcision, or something else. The new covenant believer does not serve a list of rules, we serve the Living Christ Who lives within, and personally guides each of us.

Simply stated, we trust in Jesus and are justified. Then we need to learn that the same faith gives us access into the grace in which we stand. I relate this to Ephesians 6, that we are to stand in evil day, to put on this armor, and stand against the devil's evil schemes. I also relate it to what you've said, that we won't stumble. So that we neither stumble, or get knocked off our feet.


I can appreciate your years of thought on this, I can hear it in your words.

"because of things that have gone on in my life", I related to that as well. I think the same thing, it's more about a mindset of required performance that can become quite personal, based on whatever we happen to believe about this.

Jesus, in "the Lord's Prayer", said, "lead us not into temptation (peirasmos), but deliver us from evil. People ask sometimes why would God lead us into temptation? But what Jesus really said was to not lead us into those hardships through which we have to struggle and grow, but just deliver us from that evil that we are being trained to resist.

Having experienced both ways, I echo His prayer! But I trust His wisdom.

Romans 5:1-5 EMTV
1) Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2) through whom also we have had access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3) And not only that, but we also rejoice in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces endurance;
4) and endurance, character; and character, hope.
5) And hope does not put to shame, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

As we continue to be tested/tempted (test if we endure, tempt if we do not), we eventually learn our ways fail, and so we wait for God to work. We eventually accept that our only viable course for a good outcome is to wait for Him, and we learn how to deal with life even as we wait.

We learn how to not complain though it hurts. We learn how to not worry though it's unknown. We learn how to do without, or how to live with it, or whatever is needed to remain trusting and fruitful as we endure, and this is the building of our character.

As we see God delivering us though our troubles, we gain in confidence in His promises. As we see ourselves growing, we come to believe more firmly in His promises, and we trust that what He said He will do for us, that He will in fact do these things. This is our hope, our faith based expectation.

Much love!

I also know I have had hope and joy that I would bring glory to God, earlier on in my walk, even before I had time to build proven character, so I may be wrong about my speculation on that.

 

[GracePeace]

As we continue to be tested/tempted (test if we endure, tempt if we do not), we eventually learn our ways fail, and so we wait for God to work. We eventually accept that our only viable course for a good outcome is to wait for Him, and we learn how to deal with life even as we wait.

But you wouldn't think Paul's usage of "await" in "we through the Spirit by faith await the hope of righteousness" has to do with the substance of God's love in the heart which he says is absent when we are facing ourselves (eg, through the Law) instead of facing God (ie, through faith in the message of God's kindness)--that he is comparing an absence of Christ and Grace on account of de facto doubt (Gal 3:1-3) to a being filled with Grace through both faith in Christ and then sharing that Christ for God's glory through works?

 

[Episkopos]

Twist things around if you will, but the point I am making is that you don't believe repentance is necessary for salvation. So kindly address the point if you wish to respond to my post.

Again with the extremism. You are just like the Pharisees who taunted Jesus by asking Him a loaded question so they could accuse Him of something that they misunderstood about the law. You aren't here but to accuse...not to learn.

But to the honest seeker...

Almost all rich Westerners need to repent in order to be saved....because they either love the world or they justify themselves based on their beliefs. So yes YOU need to repent if you want to KNOW eternal life while you yet live here.

In poorer countries it is different. God will have mercy on the righteous of other faiths based on their love for others and because they are meek...they suffer, they hold on. The righteous don't need to repent for a future mercy from God. They need to MAINTAIN a pattern of good works and a humble attitude. God is a Father to the fatherless and He maintains the poor and needy.

But ALL need to repent to know God's salvation in holiness. To know HIM and the power of His resurrection one must let go of their lives. For this salvation it doesn't matter if we are rich or poor, Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female. We all have the same thing to lose and the same thing to gain....from glory to glory.

I charge you to NOT misquote me as you probably will...since no pretender can tolerate a sound doctrine since the carnal motivation is to slight what is true and worthy of upholding.

 

[marks]

I also know I have had hope and joy that I would bring glory to God, earlier on in my walk, even before I had time to build proven character, so I may be wrong about my speculation on that.

For me it's all about trust, faith in Jesus, God's promises, that I'm reconciled, that He loves me, that He will never ever ever forsake me. The world argues against that, my flesh argues against that, the devils oppose me, and that's the fight we are in.

This is such a good thought, to know God will glorify Himself through me!

John wrote concerning our knowing we will be like Jesus when He appears, that he who has this hope, this faith-based expectation that Jesus will appear, and that when He does, I will be transformed to become like Him. Knowing what will be the outcome causes us to live moer in agreement with this known outcome.

Wavering about it, maybe I will, maybe I won't, works directly against us, like James also wrote.

I have had trouble balancing Ro 5:1 with Ro 14:5, 23, but it may be that the idea is that the person merely remains in the peace they already had in Ro 5:1, not that they are without peace, and finally obtain rest after doing the things they are convicted are correct.

I think so, but also depending on how internally conflicted they may be.

I think challenges such as described in Romans 14, whether to eat, and in what circumstances, these are some of the "inner contrary circumstances" I meant.

Once before I was reborn I was invited to the Krishna's on feast day, and watched as they offered the food to their idols, then returned it to the serving dishes from which we all ate. It was an amazingly delicious feast the likes of which I've never had before or since. But if invited now, I would not, for sake of their conscience, lest I be seen to condone their practice.

For love, I abstain, but were the lust of my flesh stronger, this is the conflict, do I love or do I feast? We walk a path where we walk correctly, or God corrects us back onto the path.

Having trust in Him, that He is all I need in all respects, this is the liberty to live according to the Spirit, allowing God to take responsibility for my consequences. That whatever happens to me, whether I consider it good or bad, all is governed by my all powerful and all loving heavenly Father.

Sorry to go on so long! These things are to me the heart of walking in the Way.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

For me it's all about trust, faith in Jesus, God's promises, that I'm reconciled, that He loves me, that He will never ever ever forsake me. The world argues against that, my flesh argues against that, the devils oppose me, and that's the fight we are in.

This is such a good thought, to know God will glorify Himself through me!

John wrote concerning our knowing we will be like Jesus when He appears, that he who has this hope, this faith-based expectation that Jesus will appear, and that when He does, I will be transformed to become like Him. Knowing what will be the outcome causes us to live moer in agreement with this known outcome.

Wavering about it, maybe I will, maybe I won't, works directly against us, like James also wrote.


I think so, but also depending on how internally conflicted they may be.

I think challenges such as described in Romans 14, whether to eat, and in what circumstances, these are some of the "inner contrary circumstances" I meant.

Once before I was reborn I was invited to the Krishna's on feast day, and watched as they offered the food to their idols, then returned it to the serving dishes from which we all ate. It was an amazingly delicious feast the likes of which I've never had before or since. But if invited now, I would not, for sake of their conscience, lest I be seen to condone their practice.

For love, I abstain, but were the lust of my flesh stronger, this is the conflict, do I love or do I feast? We walk a path where we walk correctly, or God corrects us back onto the path.

Yeah, but this is a general principle that has absolute application--"therefore whether you eat or drink or what ever you do"--so "the one who knows to do good and he doesn't do it for him it is sin", so the person could be thinking, "If i am sinning, and condemned, not justified, if I don't do the good I am convicted to do, how is my justification not being purchased by my doing of good, rendering Christ's sacrifice impotent and irrelevant?"
Then it's a question of motive behind the doing of what you believe.
Is it love or is it fear.
But maybe the solution is that the justification and peace of Ro 5:1 is remained in, not attained to, when you walk in LOVE and the FAITH/CONVICTION which the LOVE produces. So it's not like your justification is gone until you do the thing, it's there, and you're remaining in it and in the peace when you are remaining in the love by remaining in faith in your walk.

Having trust in Him, that He is all I need in all respects, this is the liberty to live according to the Spirit, allowing God to take responsibility for my consequences. That whatever happens to me, whether I consider it good or bad, all is governed by my all powerful and all loving heavenly Father.

I consider the freedom as contrasting against the slavery he once endured while he was in the flesh under Law--when he was captured and made to work contrary to the law of his mind. Since the flesh has been "brought to nothing" (Ro 6:6, 7:24,25), we are free to agree with our own mind, to have "yes, yes", and not "yes, no", not to be enslaved to wounding our conscience due to the desires of the body which are contrary to our mind and spirit ("the flesh lusts against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh").

Sorry to go on so long! These things are to me the heart of walking in the Way.

Don't be sorry--it's important.

 

[GracePeace]

This is such a good thought, to know God will glorify Himself through me!

It really is!

 

[marks]

But you wouldn't think Paul's usage of "await" in "we through the Spirit by faith await the hope of righteousness" has to do with the substance of God's love in the heart which he says is absent when we are facing ourselves (eg, through the Law) instead of facing God (ie, through faith in the message of God's kindness)--that he is comparing an absence of Christ and Grace on account of de facto doubt (Gal 3:1-3) to a being filled with Grace through both faith in Christ and then sharing that Christ for God's glory through works?

I've had to read this about 20 times . . . You've packed a lot into these words! I think this is very much the same thing, which Romans 5 expands into in verse 5,

Romans 5:5 EMTV
And hope does not put to shame, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

This part, "outpoured into our hearts", I see this referring to the gushers of living water of the Holy Spirit.

"a being filled with Grace through both faith in Christ and then sharing that Christ for God's glory through works?"

Are you meaning to say here that our faith in Christ, and our works towards sharing Christ for God's glory, that both of these are what cause God to give us His grace?

Much love!

 

[marks]

But maybe the solution is that the justification and peace of Ro 5:1 is remained in, not attained to, when you walk in LOVE and the FAITH/CONVICTION which the LOVE produces. So it's not like your justification is gone until you do the thing, it's there, and you're remaining in it and in the peace when you are remaining in the love by remaining in faith in your walk.

This describes justification by works and leads to living in fear. Instead of a justification/reconciliation that rests upon Christ's death and resurrection, you have a justification/reconciliation that rests on your behavior today. Is that not so?

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

I've had to read this about 20 times . . . You've packed a lot into these words! I think this is very much the same thing, which Romans 5 expands into in verse 5,

Romans 5:5 EMTV
And hope does not put to shame, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

This part, "outpoured into our hearts", I see this referring to the gushers of living water of the Holy Spirit.

"a being filled with Grace through both faith in Christ and then sharing that Christ for God's glory through works?"

Are you meaning to say here that our faith in Christ, and our works towards sharing Christ for God's glory, that both of these are what cause God to give us His grace?

Much love!

I was saying it was Paul's prescription against their Law keeping "to become perfect" after beginning by faith and grace--yes, becoming perfect in grace.

 

[Lizbeth]

In poorer countries it is different. God will have mercy on the righteous of other faiths based on their love for others and because they are meek...they suffer, they hold on.

Is it different? Is that what the bible teaches? Haven't seen it taught anywhere.

"They suffer, they hold on"........to what?

Don't you know that there is suffering in the west too? The devil still persecutes the people of God and the Lord still chastises who He loves.

Jesus came first to a poor country, suffering under God's judgments and the oppression of Rome. He preached repentance to them. The apostle wrote that now God commands all men everywhere to repent.

 

[Episkopos]

Is it different? Is that what the bible teaches? Haven't seen it taught anywhere.

"They suffer, they hold on"........to what?

Don't you know that there is suffering in the west too? The devil still persecutes the people of God and the Lord still chastises who He loves.

Jesus came first to a poor country, suffering under God's judgments and the oppression of Rome. He preached repentance to them. The apostle wrote that now God commands all men everywhere to repent.

Well, for someone who claims to be a Christian you don't seem to be familiar with anything Jesus taught. What are you building your gospel with?

 

[GracePeace]

This describes justification by works and leads to living in fear. Instead of a justification/reconciliation that rests upon Christ's death and resurrection, you have a justification/reconciliation that rests on your behavior today. Is that not so?

Much love!

That's the difficulty I've been having--balancing the two doctrines.

The issue is I can't get around verses like Ro 14:5, 23, but I think they don't conflict with Ro 5:1 if you don't see yourself getting right with Jesus, and obtaining peace, by walking in love and faith, but that what is not present and what becomes effected and present is falling away from that by sin, but that you're only remaining with Him and the peace you're already in (Ro 5:1) by doing your walking in love and grace and faith, bc sin (not walking in love and faith) disturbs the peace you have by faith, but the peace should already be there by the Foundation Christ.

 

[marks]

That's the difficulty I've been having--balancing the two doctrines.

The issue is I can't get around verses like Ro 14:5, 23, but I think they don't conflict with Ro 5:1 if you don't see yourself getting right with Jesus, and obtaining peace, by walking in love and faith, but that what is not present and what becomes effected and present is falling away from that by sin, but that you're only remaining with Him and the peace you're already in (Ro 5:1) by doing your walking in love and grace and faith, bc sin (not walking in love and faith) disturbs the peace you have by faith, but the peace should already be there by the Foundation Christ.

I want to give this some thought before giving real response.

Much love!