No one has seen God at any time, John?

[Matthias]

“No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.”

(John 1:18, NKJV)

@RLT63 you asked me a question this evening (thank you) about this passage in a thread and forum where I don’t have posting privileges. Your question:

”Was John wrong?”

My answer: No. John was not wrong.

 

[Matthias]

Do you think John was wrong @RLT63?

 

[dak]

The statement is also repeated in 1John 4:12a with a different Greek word for seeing.

 

[RLT63]

Do you think John was wrong @RLT63?

No

 

[Matthias]

No

Good. We’re in agreement that John wasn’t wrong.

Now this:

“Jesus is God.” Right?

 

[RLT63]

Good. We’re in agreement that John wasn’t wrong.

Now this:

“Jesus is God.” Right?

I know where this is going

 

[Matthias]

I know where this is going

I don’t. Where is it going?

 

[Matthias]

 

[Matthias]

If Jesus is God - and in some sense, Jesus is God - and if no one has seen God at any time - as John correctly says - then John clearly isn’t speaking about Jesus when he says that no one has seen God at any time.

Who is the God whom John is referring to? John is referring to Yahweh - Jesus’ God and Father.

 

[Muna]

Jesus also said,

John 5:37 John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

 

[Matthias]

Jesus also said,

John 5:37 John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Jesus is also, and always, right.

 

[Matthias]

Moses saw God, John.

 

[RLT63]

Moses saw God, John.

The Bible says Moses spoke to God face to face, but then God says no one can see my face and live

 

[Matthias]

The Bible says Moses spoke to God face to face, but then God says no one can see my face and live

That’s right. Conclusion? The phrase ”face to face” is an idiom.

“No one has seen God at any time” (John 1:18) = no one has seen God’s face at any time.

 

[Matthias]

Chart. John 1:18 -> Old Testament reference Exodus 33:20.

(Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament, G.K. Beale and D.A. Carson, Editors, p. 419)

Offered in support of the point made by @RLT63 in post #13.

 

[ScottA]

If Jesus is God - and in some sense, Jesus is God - and if no one has seen God at any time - as John correctly says - then John clearly isn’t speaking about Jesus when he says that no one has seen God at any time.

Who is the God whom John is referring to? John is referring to Yahweh - Jesus’ God and Father.

Moses saw God, John.

Each of these passages is a revelation of what is actually true (but only eluded to).

Jesus' explanation: "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:8), answers the question, and yet it is not fully understood.

What all of this points to or reveals, is simply the defining points of the difference between God who is spirit, and mankind (including Jesus). Mankind manifest in the form of flesh and blood--or "in the image of God"--are rather those things--things of this world...and not the spirit of God or God per se--because they are visible to the flesh. In other words, the statement by Jesus then, is a way of saying "No one has yet seen as God sees--as God who sees all whether flesh and blood, or of the elements of this world, or by image, and also everything spirit."

Which is not to say that Jesus is not God--but rather that no image is God--God is not a mere image. In the case of Jesus--He was and is in fact more--more than an image, more than flesh and blood, and more than spirit. Not more than God, but every bit both God and man, God and the image of God.

 

[Matthias]

Each of these passages is a revelation of what is actually true (but only eluded to).

Jesus' explanation: "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:8), answers the question, and yet it is not fully understood.

What all of this points to or reveals, is simply the defining points of the difference between God who is spirit, and mankind (including Jesus). Mankind manifest in the form of flesh and blood--or "in the image of God"--are rather those things--things of this world...and not the spirit of God or God per se--because they are visible to the flesh. In other words, the statement by Jesus then, is a way of saying "No one has yet seen as God sees--as God who sees all whether flesh and blood, or of the elements of this world, or by image, and also everything spirit."

Which is not to say that Jesus is not God--but rather that no image is God--God is not a mere image. In the case of Jesus--He was and is in fact more--more than an image, more than flesh and blood, and more than spirit. Not more than God, but every bit both God and man, God and the image of God.

Jesus isn’t Yahweh.

For Jewish monotheists, there is no God besides Yahweh.

 

[ScottA]

Jesus isn’t Yahweh.

For Jewish monotheists, there is no God besides Yahweh.

You're not understanding. It's simply image vs. who the image is of.

For example, if you showed someone a picture of you and asked them who it is...they would be correct in saying it is you, but also saying it is not you but only an image of you. You are one.

They are One.

 

[Matthias]

You're not understanding. It's simply image vs. who the image is of.

For example, if you showed someone a picture of you and asked them who it is...they would be correct in saying it is you, but also saying it is not you but only an image of you.

They are One.

We’ve had many conversations. I understand what you’re saying.

In Jewish monotheism, Jesus is the image of his God and Father, Yahweh.

They are one.

 

[ScottA]

We’ve had many conversations. I understand what you’re saying.

In Jewish monotheism, Jesus is the image of his God and Father, Yahweh.

They are one.

Yes, and I understand how you worded that too.

But just as it would be a mistake to think that your own picture is actually another person instead of the "image" you are as revealed and stated from the beginning, the same is true of Jesus.

So, yes, the most special picture in the Father's wallet is of Jesus, but He also has one of you and I...and in the end we too are One as they are One.