Bible Study: The Gospel is in the Torah

[Episkopos]

6:41 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

6:42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.

6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

6:44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.

Nice verses, but misused in the context. Are you a fence-sitter...not able to discern or make a decision due to a character that is both lukewarm and wishy-washy? Do you have any experience with the risen Lord...the power of His resurrection? Or are you another religious speculator who has adopted whatever church indoctrination you have been exposed to?

Where is the depth of love and faith? Where is discernment and proper judgment?

Be sure you are not seeing things yourself through a fog, fully unable to discern things you have never considered before.

 

[GracePeace]

Seeing the two sides are spiritual ...versus.... carnal ...how so?

I agree with your emphasis on walking in the spirit, not empty assertion of being "in Christ", but I agree with their emphasis on trusting in Christ and what that effects for us in terms of our relationship to God (though I wish they would go all the way, and incorporate the remainder of Scriptural doctrine on justification into their schema, though I understand it's difficult).

 

[Episkopos]

I agree with your emphasis on walking in the spirit, not empty assertion of being "in Christ", but I agree with their emphasis on trusting in Christ and what that effects for us in terms of our relationship to God (though I wish they would go all the way, and incorporate the remainder of Scriptural doctrine on justification into their schema, though I understand it's difficult).

Trusting in Christ is one thing...but ignoring every warning of Christ and building a false hope (or taking "hopium") by naming and claiming all the verses that pertain to others ....being those who have indeed been crucified with Christ and bear an eternal fruit by translation into the kingdom realm.

Many here see the bible like a shopping list...taking what they like, and leaving behind what they don't like. Just like any carnal religious person would do. A tree is known of its fruit. And most here will NOT engage any verse they don't like or that doesn't support a previous misunderstanding. It's exactly like trying to argue with a JW or any indoctrinated person. And that is because what we are dealing with is NOT spiritual understanding and life...it is a mere intellectual grasp of a religious ideology that has no life or truth in it.

 

[GracePeace]

Trusting in Christ is one thing...but ignoring every warning of Christ and building a false hope (or taking "hopium") by naming and claiming all the verses that pertain to others ....being those who have indeed been crucified with Christ and bear an eternal fruit by translation into the kingdom realm.

Many here see the bible like a shopping list...taking what they like, and leaving behind what they don't like. Just like any carnal religious person would do. A tree is known of its fruit. And most here will NOT engage any verse they don't like or that doesn't support a previous misunderstanding. It's exactly like trying to argue with a JW or any indoctrinated person. And that is because what we are dealing with is NOT spiritual understanding and life...it is a mere intellectual grasp of a religious ideology that has no life or truth in it.

I think it's like with science having trouble uniting quantum physics and classical physics--we know both have validity, but what we have had difficulty doing has been in uniting them.

In the meantime, yeah, it's frustrating talking with people when they seem committed to being dishonest on, or ignoring entirely, smothering the truth of, "inconvenient" verses--they feel the same way about their opponents--but my hope is the eventual resolution of that and mutual edification.

 

[ProDeo]

The forum is not about ego boosting or affirmation...it is about the truth and argumentation arriving at the truth. If you can't engage ideas, for the sake of greater clarity of the bible narrative...then you are misguided in your purpose here. We see A LOT of immaturity regarding any kind of actual discussion. I get attacked with impunity for speaking deeper truth that almost no one is ready for. Instead of seeking out the truth, people will rely on the carnal nature to attack and discredit anything they don't understand.

When people act without any kind of honesty, humility or godly fear....do you want to be responded to AS IF you had been honest, humble and God-fearing. God is love, but that very love begins at the truth. Read the bible to find out how Jesus corrected and condemned the Pharisees....for the sake of others NOT falling into the same trap. That's what I do here...warn people that won't be warned. Perhaps a few will come to their senses.

The thing is Epi, your scoldings erase the message you are trying to communicate, because what people remember are the insults.

 

[GracePeace]

I think it's like with science having trouble uniting quantum physics and classical physics--we know both have validity, but what we have had difficulty doing has been in uniting them.

In the meantime, yeah, it's frustrating talking with people when they seem committed to being dishonest on, or ignoring entirely, smothering the truth of, "inconvenient" verses--they feel the same way about their opponents--but my hope is the eventual resolution of that and mutual edification.

In other words, they emphasize the justification of Ro 5:1, whereas others, like yourself, emphasize, as I see it, the justification of Ro 14:23 (also Ro 2, etc, etc)--we only need to work to Scripturally bridge the gap, without doing violence to either claim, which, since neither can be wrong, I suspect requires a re-conditioning/addressing of the spirit of the mind in one's approach to these truths, not mere superficial "LOOK AT THIS PASSAGE AND BE HONEST ABOUT WHAT IT SAYS! STOP LYING!" We ourselves have to be tempered, processed, by these difficult-to-reconcile truths.

Well, that's what I'm having to go through, anyway. I've already done "Obey 100%", but it was not enough, was, ultimately, not accepted, because of the intent and motivation I had had in it, so it is more than that, it is both the correct understanding of what Christ has done for us, resting in that, but, also, then, it seems, the commitment to walking with Him in the Light of that, thereby overcoming the world (desire of the flesh, the eye, and boasting of self to be praised--all of these are opposed to, and conquered by, love, God's love).

 

[Episkopos]

The thing is Epi, your scoldings erase the message you are trying to communicate, because what people remember are the insults.

That's because people are mixed. Whatever is of value is protected by the flesh. It's up to people to NOT react in the flesh and get down to a deeper conversation to edify what has value. Rather than forsaking the flesh and having no confidence in the flesh, people double down in a self-preservation based on self-interest. That's not my fault that people live through the power and protection of the flesh and react to the truth in that way. They think it's NORMAL to behave that way even as believers. So that's what comes out. My exposing that is light exposing darkness. Iron sharpening iron. I expose the flesh in order to get at what is important...not being rejected on judgment day, which SO MANY WILL..especially in the rich and smug Western world.

I'm trying to go deeper and help release the inner man...by love of the truth, humility and the fear of the Lord. But that's new ground for many here.

So my exposing the flesh is a good thing IF one wants to arrive at the truth. Otherwise people are just looking to be affirmed in their present state. I speak to the wise. Only the foolish react in a negative way without any understanding or honesty. One must realize that God is impartial in His judgments...judging in truth. It's be ready ...or be found out.

 

[ProDeo]

That's because people are mixed. Whatever is of value is protected by the flesh. Rather than forsaking the flesh and having no confidence in the flesh, people double down. That's not my fault that people live through the power and protection of the flesh and react to the truth in that way. They think it's NORMAL to behave that way even as believers. So that's what comes out. My exposing that is light exposing darkness. Iron sharpening iron. I expose the flesh in order to get at what is important...not being rejected on judgment day.

So my exposing the flesh is a good thing IF one wants to arrive at the truth. Otherwise people are just looking to be affirmed in their present state. I speak to the wise. Only the foolish react in a negative way without any understanding or honesty. One must realize that God is impartial in His judgments...judging in truth. It's be ready or be found out.

No, it's you who starts the trampling, disdain etc. etc.

My advice, try Gal 5:22 and see how that goes.

I will listen then.

 

[soberxp]

I think it's like with science having trouble uniting quantum physics and classical physics--we know both have validity, but what we have had difficulty doing has been in uniting them.

Because it's God, not science, that connects these things.So they can't find it,I wonder if they can find it by flesh mind.

In the meantime, yeah, it's frustrating talking with people when they seem committed to being dishonest on, or ignoring entirely, smothering the truth of, "inconvenient" verses--they feel the same way about their opponents--but my hope is the eventual resolution of that and mutual edification.

Hard to tell.

 

[Episkopos]

No, it's you who starts the trampling, disdain etc. etc.

My advice, try Gal 5:22 and see how that goes.

I will listen then.

I start with sound doctrine...and many examples and explanations. The fact that you can't see the flesh reacting in others is because you yourself are also reacting in the flesh. Look at how others receive what I say. Of course people will say they are just being fooled... but that is the beauty of wisdom. It is beyond fools.

My joy is full. My exasperation towards many here is also full. Walk in the Spirit and try understanding what I say from there.

 

[ProDeo]

I start with sound doctrine...and many examples and explanations. The fact that you can't see the flesh reacting in others is because you yourself are also reacting in the flesh. Look at how others receive what I say. Of course people will say they are just being fooled... but that is the beauty of wisdom. It is beyond fools.

Matt 5:22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

Ouch....

Do take these words of Jesus serious please.

And BTW, you are not talking here to complacent, smug Pharisees but to people who are bought by the precious blood of Christ.

 

[Episkopos]

In the military there is a maxim to praise in public and criticize in private. That is necessary for cohesion in a group...a group that is engaged in the same mission.

On this forum, we see disparate missions. Some here are looking to be flattered and affirmed. A few are here to seek truth. And these are at odds...and quite significantly at odds.

Some here don't like my "style" of putting forth arguments and staying on the argument. But that's all we have on a public forum. If people need fellowship or encouragement find it in real life.

There are too few Bereans and too many with an axe to grind. The only way to keep things civil is by sticking to the bible..and not championing one bible author over another, and not insulting God or Jesus in the words that are written in the bible. I find an amazing lack of respect for God's words generally and Jesus' words specifically.

People seem fully non-compliant with any kind of truth that gets in the way of their indoctrination. And a lack of grace and charity is far too often seen by those who simply have been fully outperformed in understanding. We can go over ANY scripture...there are NO taboo scriptures. And those who have made taboo scriptures need to be called out...rather than supported by an ever honesty-decreasing crowd that turns into a bullying mob and then a wolf-pack.

Many have left the forums due to constant harassment and bullying...people who are honest tend to leave. Many more watch here without responding because of the attacks of those who champion ego over truth. I'm here to bear the brunt of those attacks to allow for the more fragile faiths of some to hear the truth IN SPITE of all the dogmas and ideologies that have been concocted by the religious mind.

If I come across as hard it is only in confronting what resists the truth and speaks with dishonesty and disrespect for the truth of the bible...in BOTH Testaments.

 

[Episkopos]

Matt 5:22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

Ouch....

Do take these words of Jesus serious please.

Take those words and look at how the dishonest here react to what Jesus says and God declares ...straight from the bible. Hence My own concern for many here. I weigh my words carefully...not idly.

I'm confronting egos...not with an ego but with truth....ego-less truth. The sin is to attack another with the ego....with trying to destroy another. I'm destroying an ARGUMENT. It is the ego that attacks me for that. I'm not concerned with ego exploitation. I'm concerned with liberating the inner man..IF a person has any kind of faith.

And BTW, you are not talking here to complacent, smug Pharisees but to people who are bought by the precious blood of Christ.

In some cases yes...but I'm also speaking to enemies of the cross.

 

[soberxp]

Take those words and look at how the dishonest here react to what Jesus says and God declares ...straight from the bible. Hence My own concern for many here. I weigh my words carefully...not idly.

The Bible does not need dogma or doctrine.

It is only because people are lazy to understand, afraid of this and that, that so many dogma or doctrine.

In some cases yes...but I'm also speaking to enemies of the cross.

Repentance, not cunning, cunning out of the flesh.and the Satan,the serpent.

 

[Lizbeth]

@marks I think taking the approach to the issue that I'm suggesting unifies all of the doctrines on justification in Scripture--James 2, Romans 2, etc, etc, etc--WITHOUT sacrificing Ro 5:1, and without having to offer weird, obviously convoluted and dishonest, readings of texts like James 2.

Will wait for your response, though.

I think we need to consider that James wasn't speaking in a vacuum, but in light of the gospel....he was talking about works that proceed from faith......he wasn't talking about anyone being justified by their own works/righteousness apart from faith. Because he also said we show/prove our faith by our works (which involve obedience, deeds, witness, and manner of living righteously). Bringing forth fruits in keeping with repentance. As I understand James, we are justified by works in a manner of speaking....because it demonstrates and proves our faith is a living faith. By works is faith made perfect.....faith has fruit to show, if it is alive. He wrote, "faith wrought with his works"....that means the works had to involve his faith, they worked together....it wasn't works without faith.

I don't believe this is an entirely passive or automatic thing, it involves our willingness and cooperation too.....since we are instructed, admonished, encouraged and reminded, as well as warned, in scripture (which speaks along the lines of "SINCE the Lord has been so gracious and generous to save us from what we once were, how can we live selfishly and in sin any longer?")......so that we both learn and do not "forget" what we have been saved from.

Jas 1:23-25

For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror;

for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was.

But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

 

[shepherdsword]

All I know is...I don't want to stand before a HOLY God with nothing but my own works to justify me

 

[Lizbeth]

I agree with your emphasis on walking in the spirit, not empty assertion of being "in Christ", but I agree with their emphasis on trusting in Christ and what that effects for us in terms of our relationship to God (though I wish they would go all the way, and incorporate the remainder of Scriptural doctrine on justification into their schema, though I understand it's difficult).

Rom 8:9-10

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


From this I get the impression that being or walking in the Spirit seems to involve the matter of degree or depth, much like how the prophet went into the river of God gradually, first up to his ankles, then knees, etc..until finally he was in over his head. Maybe we can consider that being over his head pictures a full and complete surrender to the Lord. All true believers who have received Christ are in the spirit to some degree according to the measure given to us in the beginning but we are not all in over our head yet.

 

[Episkopos]

I think we need to consider that James wasn't speaking in a vacuum, but in light of the gospel....he was talking about works that proceed from faith......he wasn't talking about anyone being justified by their own works/righteousness apart from faith. Because he also said we show/prove our faith by our works (which involve obedience, deeds, witness, and manner of living righteously). Bringing forth fruits in keeping with repentance. As I understand James, we are justified by works in a manner of speaking....because it demonstrates and proves our faith is a living faith. By works is faith made perfect.....faith has fruit to show, if it is alive. He wrote, "faith wrought with his works"....that means the works had to involve his faith, they worked together....it wasn't works without faith.

I don't believe this is an entirely passive or automatic thing, it involves our willingness and cooperation too.....since we are instructed, admonished, encouraged and reminded, as well as warned, in scripture (which speaks along the lines of "SINCE the Lord has been so gracious and generous to save us from what we once were, how can we live selfishly and in sin any longer?")......so that we both learn and do not "forget" what we have been saved from.

Jas 1:23-25

For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror;

for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was.

But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

Again you fully miss the point..
The difference between thinking about going for a walk and going for a walk is that the one who goes for a walk stays in shape...and the one who only thinks about going for a walk does not. THAT'S the point.

You are trying so hard to justify thinking OVER walking that you say...yes, but the one who went for a walk first thought about it, just like the one who only thought about it but didn't. So what? Being a hearer does not justify a person, as you think. It is ONLY the doer that is justified. People will ONLY be justified by their works....not their beliefs.

So you are trying to champion what James isn't....and you are only adding to the problem of justifying THINKING or "hearing" about walking or thinking about doing God's will, rather actually being obedient to God.

Thinking about walking is in the imagination..and you defend that imagination....because that is where your idea of the gospel is...in abstraction...in figurative language...in the imagination.

It takes a logical and honest mind to see through the mind games. The rest is mere imagination. Being imaginative is NOT a fruit of the Spirit. It is carnal.

 

[Episkopos]

All I know is...I don't want to stand before a HOLY God with nothing but my own works to justify me

But barring eternal works prepared in advance....there is always the human qualities of humility and godly fear that God accepts from us.

 

[Lizbeth]

Repentance, not cunning, cunning out of the flesh.and the Satan,the serpent.

Amen.